Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

polly7

(20,582 posts)
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 10:18 AM Feb 2015

Tipping Point in Ukraine?

Ukraine war grinds on under ceasefire, no path to peace in sight
by William Boardman / February 1st, 2015

Pretty much everything about Ukraine is murky and unreliable these days, and that’s before you take into consideration any of the meddling by outside powers playing carelessly with their Slavic pawns. Viewed in their darkest light, the events of the past 20 months (and the past 20 years) reflect an East-West death spiral that is now accelerating, and from which none of the engaged parties show any desire to disengage.

The civil war in eastern Ukraine has continued fitfully since September, when the parties signed a ceasefire known as the Minsk Agreement. The ceasefire has often been more honored in the breach than the observance, but overall it has led to considerably less bloodshed, especially among civilians, than the previous six months fighting. In the spring of 2014, the level of killing escalated sharply, at U.S. urging, when the newly-installed coup government in Kiev chose to attack rather than negotiate with the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk and People’s Republic of Luhansk (now joined in the self-proclaimed federal state of Novorossiya). So far, only the Republic of South Ossetia has recognized these Ukrainian “republics” as independent countries. Only Russia, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Nauru recognize South Ossetia, which declared its independence from Georgia in 1990, but secured it only in 2008 with the help of Russian intervention.

By comparison, the much smaller Republic of Kosovo, which declared its independence from Serbia in 2008, quickly secured that independence thanks to American and NATO military intervention, illustrating the double standard applied by the international community to questions of “territorial integrity” and “sovereignty.” Landlocked Kosovo, population about 1.8 million, is now recognized by 108 UN member countries, including the U.S., Canada, most of Europe, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Yemen.

During the summer of 2014, the Ukrainian military captured much of the territory of the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk and other separatist-held areas, but at significant cost to the civilian population. An estimated 2.8 million ethnic Russians have emigrated from Ukraine to Russia during the past year. The Ukrainian army’s advance was halted by Russian military support to the Republics that Russia denies it provided, just as the U.S. and other NATO countries deny the support they have given Ukraine. The two Republics now hold about 3 million people and have access to the Black Sea along the southern border.


Does anyone really want a settlement in Ukraine?:

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/02/tipping-point-in-ukraine/
9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
1. Rec - good summary of the much-ignored diplomatic history behind the killing.
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 10:32 AM
Feb 2015

Everyone should read this to understand the context.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
2. Hahaha!!! The EU has been assaulting Russia for 20 years now?
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 10:41 AM
Feb 2015

And again, a horrible article. "Both sides do it." No proof offered that Russia provides the rebels with arms, no proof offered that the US provides Ukraine with arms.

And what is suspiciously absent from the article is that Russia has deepest, vital, geopolitical interests in Ukraine. Geopolitical interests that go back to soviet times and still hold today.
All the author does is talking about the (supposed) interests, faults and failures of the West without exploring the situation in Ukraine from the viewpoint of Russia.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
5. .............
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 12:23 PM
Feb 2015

Ukraine: An Analysis

By David McReynolds

March 9, 2014

Russia has no natural barrier – no river, no mountain range – to guard it on its Western border. It has suffered invasion from the West three times in recent memory – under Napoleon and then twice under the Germans. In the last invasion, under Hitler, between 25 and 27 million Soviet citizens lost their lives. All the factories, dams, railroads. towns and cities West of a line from Leningrad in the North to Moscow to Stalingrad in the South were destroyed. Americans make much of 9.11 (and I don’t make light of it) but for Russia it was not just a handful of buildings in one city which were destroyed – it was entire cities, leveled. And then with the wounded to care for, the orphans, the widows.

Americans have never understood what the war meant to Russia and why, after the war, the Soviets sought to build a “protective band” of territory between itself and Germany. This was Eastern Europe, which under the iron boot of Stalin became “people’s democracies” or “presently existing socialism”.


Something Americans (perhaps including our President and the Secretary of State) have forgotten was that Russia wanted to make a deal with the West. It had made peace with Finland, which (again, memories are short and we have forgotten this) fought on the side of the Nazis. The Soviets withdrew from Austria after the West agreed that Austria, like Finland, would be neutral.The Soviets very much wanted a Germany united, disarmed, and neutral. Stalin did not integrate the East Germany into the Eastern European economic plans for some time, hoping he could strike that deal. But the West wanted West Germany as part of NATO, and so the division of Germany lasted until Gorbachev came to power.

I would have urged radical actions by the West in 1956 when the Hungarian Revolution broke out – it was obvious that if the Soviets could not rule Eastern Europe without sending in tanks (as they had already had to do in East Germany in 1953), they posed no real threat of a military strike at the West.

What if we had said to Moscow, withdraw your tanks from Hungary, and we will dissolve NATO, while you dissolve the Warsaw Pact.

But of course the West didn’t do that. The US in particular (but I would not exempt the Europeans from a share of the blame) wanted to edge their military bases to the East. When the USSR gave up control of Eastern Europe, the US pressed for pushing NATO farther East, into Poland and up to the borders of Ukraine.


http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/ukraine-an-analysis/


....."When President Gorbachev accepted the unification of Germany as part of NATO—an astonishing concession in the light of history—there was a quid pro quo. Washington agreed that NATO would not move “one inch eastward,” referring to East Germany.

The promise was immediately broken, and when Gorbachev complained, he was instructed that it was only a verbal promise, so without force.

President Clinton proceeded to expand NATO much farther to the east, to Russia's borders. Today there are calls to extend NATO even to Ukraine, deep into the historic Russian “neighborhood.” But it “doesn't involve” the Russians, because its responsibility to “uphold peace and stability” requires that American red lines are at Russia's borders."

http://www.alternet.org/putins-takeover-crimea-scares-us-leaders-because-it-challenges-americas-global-dominance?page=0%2C1&akid=11793.44541.Ck7lmV&rd=1&src=newsletter990910&t=3


Excerpts: In February of this year, US State Department officials, undiplomatically, joined anti-government protesters in the capital city of Kiev, handing out encouragement and food, from which emanated the infamous leaked audio tape between the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and the State Department’s Victoria Nuland, former US ambassador to NATO and former State Department spokesperson for Hillary Clinton. Their conversation dealt with who should be running the new Ukraine government after the government of Viktor Yanukovich was overthrown; their most favored for this position being one Arseniy Yatsenuk.

My dear, and recently departed, Washington friend, John Judge, liked to say that if you want to call him a “conspiracy theorist” you have to call others “coincidence theorists”. Thus it was by the most remarkable of coincidences that Arseniy Yatsenuk did indeed become the new prime minister. He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine don’t need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings. But the American media obscures these motivations by almost always referring to them simply as “pro-Russian”.

An exception, albeit rather unemphasized, was the April 17 Washington Post which reported from Donetsk that many of the eastern Ukrainians whom the author interviewed said the unrest in their region was driven by fear of “economic hardship” and the IMF austerity plan that will make their lives even harder: “At a most dangerous and delicate time, just as it battles Moscow for hearts and minds across the east, the pro-Western government is set to initiate a shock therapy of economic measures to meet the demands of an emergency bailout from the International Monetary Fund.”

Arseniy Yatsenuk, it should be noted, has something called the Arseniy Yatsenuk Foundation. If you go to the foundation’s website you will see the logos of the foundation’s “partners”. Among these partners we find NATO, the National Endowment for Democracy, the US State Department, Chatham House (Royal Institute of International Affairs in the UK), the German Marshall Fund (a think tank founded by the German government in honor of the US Marshall Plan), as well as a couple of international banks. Is any comment needed?

http://williamblum.org/aer/read/128


He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine don’t need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings.


Thanks to Octafish.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
6. Here is the link to CNN's Zakaria Interview segment with PBO on Russia...
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 02:48 PM
Feb 2015

This is worth the watch for those who have time. It is very revealing about Obama's views and how he sees U.S. Foreign Policy going forward in dealing with Russia and Ukraine. And, not in a comfortable way for those of us who are sick of footing bills for endless wars concocted by the NeoCons & Wall Street Interests......imho. Anyway...it's well worth the watch whether one disagrees or agrees with our current foreign policy.

-----------


CNN’s FAREED ZAKARIA GPS features a wide-ranging interview with President Barack Obama in New Delhi as the President concluded his state visit to India. Topics included the impact of the death of Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah on the fragile Middle Eastern region, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu’s upcoming speech to Congress on President Obama’s Iran policy, the need for drone use regulations, China’s apparent distress over the burgeoning Obama-Modi friendship, Russia’s failing economy and its success in de-stabilizing Ukraine, and the legacy of his administration. Videos and a full transcript of the interview are below.

Here is the link to CNN's Zakaria Interview Segment with PBO focusing on Russia in India last week.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/01/31/exp-gps-obama-sot-putin.cnn/video/playlists/fareed-zakaria-interviews-president-obama/

Are the U.S. and Russia in a new Cold War? Are there any signs that Russia's Putin is ready to back-down? Pres. Obama answers.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
8. It's not a long watch--it's the segment that focused on Russia not the whole interview...
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 03:32 PM
Feb 2015

I just edited my post above so that people who don't have much time for watching whole interview would know that the link is direct to the Russian segment.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
9. Russia was doing this before WWII.
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 07:53 PM
Feb 2015

In occupying the Baltics, divvying up Poland and neutralizing Finland.

It did it right after WWI, in the assault in Poland, in the machinations in the Caucasus, in how it dealt with Belorussia and with Ukraine.

It did it before WWI, in how it basically tried to occupy and annex bits of the Balkans. In its "territories" that were the Baltics, Ukraine, Belorussia, Poland. And the Caucasus.

It did it before the 1848 revolutions, before Napoleon. Hard to argue that it's a result of the wars with Lithuania or with Sweden--we're talking 1600s here--but that's how far back this kind of specious reaches goes in justifying what happened in 1956 and 1967. Even heard it claimed that this results from the Golden Horde--a sound reason to destroy Novgorod and partition Poland over and over. Sounds good, as long as you have limited information and don't ask the right questions.

At the time it was clearly for the purpose of establishing an empire. Getting a seacoast on the Baltic. With all the same kinds of rhetoric. Helping "younger brother" nations. Fighting heterodoxy and the Catholics as part of a 3rd Rome. Privilege for Russians and oppression for others. In the 1900s they were also into Russian as a "regional" language--at times while officially supporting the ghettoization of "ethnic minority languages" such as Ukrainian in the Ukraine, but only in restricted situations that allowed Russian to spread. So much so that while Belorus' was founded based on ethnic/linguistic borders, these days Belorus' is nearly endangered in its "indigenous" territory. By Russian, its defender.

We forget the attempts to secure a warm-water port. The wars on the southern periphery, even with Iran in an attempt to secure a port on the Indian ocean. We can't get past our own problems to be able to let others say that Russia has its problems, often no less worthy of condemnation, but in need of praise since they help or helped us fight our own historical battles.

MattSh

(3,714 posts)
3. Plus the author fails to critically analyze Soros's role in this mess.
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:48 AM
Feb 2015

He helped fund the destabilization of the current government, and, using his insider information, he hoped to profit from that. But things did not go the way he anticipated. So Soros now calls for a $50 billion bailout of Ukraine by USA and EU taxpayers, so Soros does not lose his shirt. In other words, a bailout. Might such a bailout help Ukraine? Doubtful, but it would certain help George Soros.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Editorials & Other Articles»Tipping Point in Ukraine?