The man who missed killing Hitler by 13 minutes (BBC)

[eppur_se_muova]

By Chris Bowlby
BBC News

5 April 2015

A new film released in Germany this month highlights one of the great "what ifs" of history. It's the story of Georg Elser - a 36-year-old carpenter from a small town in southern Germany - who came very close to assassinating Adolf Hitler in the early days of World War Two.

On 8 November 1939, Hitler was making his annual speech at a Munich beer hall. The event commemorated early Nazi struggles in the 1920s. This time Hitler used it to mock his international enemies, and boast about Germany's successful start to the war.

But what neither Hitler nor the Nazi top brass and loyal audience realised was that, a few feet away from where the Fuehrer was standing, a bomb was about to go off .

Its ticking timers carefully muffled in cork casing, it had been assembled and planted secretly over many weeks by Georg Elser. He had started making his plans the previous year, after deciding that, under Hitler, "war was unavoidable".

Hitler began this speech at the same time every year, but on this occasion, eager to return to Berlin and his military planners, the Fuehrer left early.
***
more: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32160816

[Diclotican]

1. eppur_se_muova

eppur_se_muova

The history could have been a whole different one - if he had been successfully in killing Hitler.. But on the other hand - then Hitler would have going down in a history - as a great german hero - who united different german spoken people in one country - and who also made possible for a authoritarian regime in the middle of Europe - who would have turned against Poland anyway - but later when the military was better equipped than it was in 1939 when war started.. If WW2 had started in 1941-42 instead of 1939 - then Germany really could have had a military to reckon with - and also a military who could have being far more damage than it did in WW2... The german right - that be ordinary conservatives to the extreme right was rather in the same bed, when it come to the nationality of Poland, who most looked upon as a wrong state, a country who was made possible because of the end of WW1 - a war Germany lost - from the conservative perspective because the left - and the jews had backstabed good germans in the back to make sure Germany was to loose the war.. Even if the generals, with Paul von Hindenburg in tow - already in mid 1916 had admitted that the war was lost - and the best they could hope for was a peace who was not hurting germany to much.. And even then the war continued for another two years, until the old regime of the Kaiser finally broke - and he was deposed, and asked to leave the country - he ended up in The Netherlands, where he lived to 1941, when he died, rather quietly - and it said that the old emperor was not to impressed by Hitler at all - he was seen as somewhat of a demagogue - and dangerous to Germany... the old emperor had more right than he know about... And for that reason, not many germans got to know their old emperor had died - for many it was in fact not until after the fall of Berlin in 1945, that they got to know that their old emperor was died, in 1941.... But by then germans had other problems than to make a token symbol about their old emperor...

If Hitler was indeed killed in 1939 - before he could start what become World War two - I suspect many things could have happened - mostly that the nazi-party had lost power - as the nazi-party more or less owned its existence to one man - Hitler - who was the inner soul of the parti... Outside of him ,it was not many who could have united all the different fractions who ruled the party and who was depended of Hitler all the way from the smallest party worker - to the Gauleiters and others who more or less dominated their own patch of power.... I believe the generals of the Army had getting one of the generals to at least take back most of the power in an interim government - and I think they would have been doing a "bloody cut" out of the nazi-officials as most generals and higher ups in the military system, was at least until 1940, doubtfully about how successfully a war would be for Germany in the long run.. They believed Germany being a long way from being prepared to a long conflict with the rest of the world - and a late military report dated around this times - state that Germany at best was able to make a decent war by 1941 who the possibility of being a sauces to be better than in 1939 - mostly because germany still needed time to build up its army, to continue to rebuild its air force, who still was dominated by older designs - and to build many more submarines and surface ships... They also pointed out - that they had some doubt most germans was really prepared for a new war - as the sentiment still, after all the propaganda was that germans was less interested in war than before... Even the party's propaganda war against Poland had not being made a decent bent in the anti-war sentiment... And when War indeed broke out 1 sept 1939 - most people in germans was at best carefully to the news about the war.. The celebration of war, as in 1914 when almost a million people in Berlin alone was celebrating the start - was no-where to be seen in 1939... Hitler had in fact made preparations for a great celebration and was disappointed by the welcome from its people - who was clearly not to happy about war... But who followed its leader to the ground in 6 years time


Diocletian

[Cirque du So-What]

2. Interesting analysis

In addition, I wonder what would have happened if Hitler had been assassinated at a high point of nazi power before Sept 1939. Without Hitler's micromanagement and leadership from competent military generals, perhaps the war would have taken a very different course - one that would not have been favorable to the Allies.

[Diclotican]

3. Cirque du So-What

Cirque du So-What


If Hitler was killed before sept 1939 - I suspect Germany would, as written before could have started another war anyway - you do not spend that mutch money, and not use it.... It would have started later on, when the generals would feel more comfortable doing so - And I suspect the more competent generals would be given the task, not the ones who was on good terms with the political leaders of the country.. But I suspect it would have been the generals who really was behind the power in a Germany not controlled by the nazi party - or by Hitler.. As most political leaders on the conservative side, long before Hitler got the chanclery in January 1933 had failed their country over political bitching and infigthing and where the last democratic elected chansclor (Von Papen) var more willing to do business with Hitler - than to safeguard the Weimar-Republic, and where the conservatives was willing to give Hitler all what he wanted after the fire in the Reichtag - rather than fight for the Republic, and its constitution... They gave away the democracy - in name to defend it against enemies from abroad and in their own country...

But on the other hand - in 1938, von Shach Germanys finance minister - had warned Goering - and also Hitler, about the founding of their military spending - and have given a clear warning in late 1938 - about the posiblity of a Germany who was not able to pay its bills - mostly all the loans Germany was given after 1933, when the economy start picking up - and gave Hitler a lot of working room, as the loans Germany was given, was used both to build new roads, social programs (who for the most part was made posible by the social-democratic predessors, but who in the wake of the economical problems of 1928-29, was put on hold) and to make Germany was able to build up its military power - specially after 1935 - when germany more or less was given a free hand when it come to military spending - as long as it was less than the US and UK... But in 1938-39 Germany was put in a pickle - mostly becouse of the out of control spending on military hardware - who for years had hurt german economy, even if it gave the pepole of germany work - to build a modern army you need a lot of manpower - something Germany was in need of - even if it was on the cost of most other things.... And in 1939 more or less at the eve of the war - it was signs that some of the banks who had lended Germany billions was starting to worry about how the country would pay for its bills... And for Germany - after the war broke out - and the war was a fact - some of the first the country did, was to conquer the national bank of Poland - where most of the gold the country had was placed - and it was seen as some of a norm for how Germany was doing the war - when they occupied a nation - one of the first they did - was to get to the national banks - to get control over the money, and eventually forreign currency and gold.. And even to put it on trains back to germany, to be stored in the Reichbank - or in some of its subsidaries in Germany.... But even this was not enough - and then we come to some of the worst aspects of the german war - the killing of european jews - and the plunder of even gold in tooths who was melted down to bars - and then transported back to germany... And even if many might do not know where it was from - many was in the "Know" and understood where the gold came from - from rumors - or from evidences outright about what was happening in Poland and in the european parts of Russia..... And still - a lot of this gold are out there - we have no clue where it ended up - and who benefited from it best - at least, the victims of this horrible crime never won anything out of it...


If Germany had been able to wage the war against the allied in a way the german generals could have been doing it - without Hitler messing up with their plans all the time - the war could have had a whole different course - specially if the generals had been able to crush the western allied first - and then had their back safe... And that was indeed Hitlers plan from the start also - crush the western powers once and for all - conquer France - and if not posible making some form of peace with UK, occupy that country too - and then - go to war against the Soviet Union.... As it was - Hitler squandlert that posilbity by not doing the right preparations before the war started in 1939 - and I think we should thank everything what's good that Hitler was not willing - or able to listen to his generals, who again and again, from 1934 and forward - gave Hitler the advice of making sure to play it safe.. Hitler was as some have written about it - was a gambler, who was willing to game the game again and again, and again - and untill Austria and Tsjekkia, where Hitler got everything he wanted - and more as Sudetland was kind of a bonus for Hitler - he might belived the rest would fall togheter with the rest - but he got a clear warning from both UK and France that enough was enough But by then Hitler was the most powerfully stateman in Europe - he had most of Central Europe under its own control - and so many other countryes, like Slovakia, Hungary, and others had regimes who was if not friendly to Hitler, so at least sympatic to Hitler..

UK and France was rather alone - when they 1 sept 1939 understood that Germany was not backing off - and started a new European War against Poland - a war who would devestate the old continent - destroy "the old order" -and also make sure the continent was dominated by other forces than before the war started for more than 70 years...

And now - some of the old demons are sticking their ugly head out again - hopefully they can be contaiment - and put back where they deserve to be - on the bins of history...

Diclotican

[Doctor_J]

4. Poland had already been invaded however

So the inertia had already begun. Interesting what if though

[Jim Lane]

5. The biggest what-if is the invasion of Russia

Hitler was fixated on German expansion to the east, which fit well with his fierce anti-Communism. What if, in November 1939, he had been killed, and had been succeeded by someone who didn't share those obsessions?

Consider this scenario: In 1941, instead of invading Russia, Nazi Germany sends many of those forces as reinforcements to Rommel in North Africa. Then Rommel rolls up Montgomery and captures Alexandria, Cairo, and the Suez Canal. Even worse, there is no Eastern Front to sap German strength. (As Churchill observed, "The Red Army tore the guts out of the Wehrmacht.&quot

If you really want to worry -- maybe Rommel doesn't stop at Suez. Hitler's successor arranges cooperation with Stalin, in which Russia attacks down through the Caucasus while Germany moves east from Egypt. The two of them divide up all the Middle East's oil.

Hitler's successor is the master of Europe from the English Channel to the middle of what used to be Poland. It's not easy to envision a course of events that disturbs that status quo.

Hitler's decision to invade Russia caused literally millions of deaths, but it might have been the only thing that prevented the Third Reich from lasting, if not a thousand years, at least several decades. It's possible that Europe escaped that fate... by thirteen minutes.

[Diclotican]

6. Jim Lane

Jim Lane

I do not know - but the idea of turning their heads into Russia for "lebensraum" was shared by many - not just Hitler and his close gangs who got into power in 1933 - The idea about germany had to turn eastward - to get land and space for its population was not new - and was going all the way back to the Kaisar - who in 1917 managed to get a lot of land from what was then Imperial Russia - the new regime who toppled the Tsar wanted peace, and was prepared to loose a lot - of course most of what Russia lost then - was Incorporated into Poland, after the war - when Germany had to accept the treaty of Versailles....

I'm not sure if Germany had been going to war at all - if Hitler had not been there, if he had been killed before the start of World War One - I suspect Germany would have not gotten to its war at all - at least not at the terms Hitler was doing it - I suspect the conservative movement, who had been part of the system longer than Hitler, and who still had a a thing or two to say about governance - would have managed to stop the train heading for a disaster that the war indeed was for Germany - but even if it had not started in Sept 1939 - it could have started later - if the generals had been satisfied that they could invade Poland with impunity from the west - that be France or UK, who had enough of Hitler by 1939...

But as you point out - if Hitler had been smart enough to not start the war in 1939 - and instead invaded France and the lower countries and the rest who he occupied in early 1940 - and then instead of going against Russia - was doing what the generals wanted - conquering in North Africa - and then maybe even managed to roll up Montgomery - and captured Alexandria, and the Suez-canal - THAT would have been a disaster for the UK Imperial - who in fact, by 1930s - survived mostly because of the Suez-Canal - who cut the travel time between UK and the colonies in the east in half, and then some... If the Suez canal had been lost - it would be a catastrophe for the allied forces, who hen had to send all its military forces all the way around Africa...

I'm not sure if any german successor of Hitler would have managed to get a military alliance between them elf and Stalin - but Stalin was scrod enough to get a treaty with Hitler in 1939 - at the eve of World War Two more or less - and it was just a technicality in the diplomatic sense, that Russia and the allied was not in a war with each other in 1939 - as Hitler and Stalin carved up Europe - and more or less did away with some of the countries in the east... And if Stalin have had some more sensible person to cut a deal with - I would not have been surprised if they had been able to divide between them, the middle eastern oil who in turn would have given both of them a dominating role in Europe - and indeed also in the world... The whole world could have been a whole different one today - if Germany and the Soviet Union had been able to not go into each others throat - and trying to kill the others off...


But - it is important to point out here - that the whole world believed the Soviet to be a colossi on mud foot - as Stalin had devastated the military to its core by killing of, or arrest and convict so many of its officers, to prison, and to the gulag - and the ones who had been able to survive did know how not to think to much outside of the box - as many had been doing in the early 1920s and 1930s - before Stalin had his purge of officers who might was a challenge to his own rule - by 1939-1941 the german generals really believed that the Soviet Union was on its knees - it was time to crush the door - splinter it - and then take all the rewards who came from dominating the whole area of european Russia - from the fields in Ukraine - all the way up to the mines of the north.... And the idea of getting Russia under its knee - was not a new one for the generals in Germany - it was indeed something that had been part of the idea all the time back, even to the middle ages - when Knights of old, had conquered land - put it into use and also dominated the area with lords of the manor - what become eastern Prussian - and parts of Poland - even into what is now Ukraine was once part of the orders who ruled it and who for the most part, gave a foundation to some of the more fanatical ideals who under Hitler came to be a reality - but who was much a part of the idea of a pan-german nation in the East... But the extreme ideals who hitler gave rise to - i doubt would have been a part of it...

Hitlers desision to invade the Soviet Union - made sure, at least after Stalingrad who really gutted the Whermacts once and for all - even if the Whermact was able to recover from the devastating effect mostly - the german Army never really got its confidence back... Not in the way it have had before Stalingrad... And from what I know - it was also a break of confidence against their own generals - and against Hitler - who already had been hit by its incompetence when it came to waging a war in the winter - the winter of 1941-42 was the coldest in memory - and many german soldiers freeze to death -because of the total lack of winter-clothing as the plan was to knock down the russian army by the end of 1941 - and then celebrate victory in the Kremlin - or in the City of St-Petersburg - Until 1942 the regime of Hitler even had plans to who was to rule the city - and even had printed up invitation to the celebration in the city to all type of officials from the party and from different branches of governments and the army, navy and air force - not to left out SS... After Stalingrad - and the turn of the war - it was just a matter of time before Germany was to be hit by the war at full speed - not that it had not been hit by it - as the aerial bombarding of Germany was starting in earnest - as newer, faster, better equipment had arrived in UK - and also because the Luftwaffe was thinned out - defending both the old Reich - but also all the other theater of operations - from Volga to the atlantic... To many fronts - to few aircrafts and pilots.... And to little fuel to fuel the war mashine... and to many old designs to really make up for what they lacked in manpower... If they have had the ME262 in 1941-42 or latest in 1943 - the whole aerial war over Germany could have been a whole different one... And not a war The allied necessary had been winning to be honest...

Diclotican