By conflating gender and sex we undermine sporting competition

[janterry]

Laurel Hubbard, 43, is poised to become the first transgender Olympian after being picked for New Zealand’s weightlifting team.

From article:

By conflating gender and sex, I would argue we fudge the very reason we have sex categories in sport: the male performance advantage. Without a separate category for females, there would be no women in Olympic finals. Even in the 100m, one of the events with the smallest performance gap, approximately 10,000 men worldwide have personal bests faster than the current Olympic female champion, Elaine Thompson-Herah (10.70sec). And it’s not just track and field. While the smallest attainment gap between the sexes comes in running, rowing and swimming events (11-13%), this moves up to 16%-22% in track cycling, and between 29% and 34% when it comes to bowling cricket balls and weightlifting. The difference in punch power between men and women is a whopping 162%. Not, then, to be sniffed at. But the International Olympic Committee tweaked its guidelines in 2015 to allow athletes such as Hubbard to compete in the women’s category, provided their total testosterone level in serum is kept below 10 nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months. Transgender men face no restrictions in the male category for obvious reasons.

Increasingly, however, research is showing that these testosterone guidelines do not guarantee the “fair competition” the IOC was hoping for. Ross Tucker, a sports scientist and expert on testosterone advantage in sport, succinctly sums it up: “Lowering of testosterone is almost completely ineffective in taking away the biological differences between males and females.” There is just no proof that reducing testosterone takes away the advantage of muscle mass, strength, lean body mass, muscle size or bone density. Despite this new evidence from Drs Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg, the IOC has put off any further decisions making until after Tokyo and left it up to individual sports federations to decide their own transgender policies. Some have been bold, others have written their policies alongside trans lobby groups without consulting women’s organisations or sports scientists. Those questioning the narrative are accused of transphobia – as Martina Navratilova and Nicola Adams have discovered.

The most common argument used in favour of inclusion is that sport is all about natural advantage and that being a trans woman is just another factor to add to the list alongside Michael Phelps’s size 14 feet and double-jointed ankles. The problem with this argument is that we don’t compete according to foot-size, but we do protect the integrity of women’s sport because the advantage gained from male puberty is so comprehensive in terms of speed, power, strength and so much else. Phelps’s feet gave him an advantage as a swimmer; male puberty gave him a much bigger advantage across the board. At the Beijing Olympics, he won the 200m freestyle in 1.42.96, breaking the world record. Federica Pellegrini broke the women’s world record at the same distance, finishing in 1.54.82 – a time that wouldn’t have got her into the men’s semi-finals. It wasn’t internalised misogyny slowing her down.

also: "Serena Williams told David Letterman that were she to play Andy Murray, “I would lose, 6-0, 6-0, in … maybe 10 minutes”. Male puberty and androgens give an advantage in a different stratosphere.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/jun/22/by-conflating-gender-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition

[AZSkiffyGeek]

1. Why is this transphobic shit allowed here? nt

[FreepFryer]

3. +1. I wish DU would clean up our act re this alt-right discriminatory propaganda. (Nt)

[janterry]

5. It's from the Guardian

which is certainly not 'alt-right' (how did you come to that decision?)

did you look at the science in the article?

[FreepFryer]

6. LOL (Nt)

[janterry]

7. oh

n/t

[FreepFryer]

8. Yup, (Nt)

[Dream Girl]

9. Is there no male advantage in most sports involving muscle strength?

How is this transphobic? How does did not harm sis gender female athletes? I really don’t understand, not being transphobic. How is this fair to female athletes?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

10. You think people go through gender affirming treatment for advantage in sports?

You have examples of transwomen excelling at sports over ciswomen?
Why aren't people concerned about transmen competing against cismen?

Even if they have an unfair advantage (which has NOT been proven) - what's worse, discrimination or not getting a medal?

[FreepFryer]

11. Faux science is the way to dehumanize, sports is the medium because it lets one ignore humaneness.

The concerns you mention don’t advance an inhumane and irrational agenda, so they aren’t part of the calculation - they are waved off in favor of claims of authority over the integrity of sport as the piece’s author does over and over.

[janterry]

12. Is this faux science?

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

[FreepFryer]

14. COVID Infection rates differ between different ethnic groups. Should we compel some to vaccinate?

Logic is as flawed as the science these non stop bullshit hit pieces cling to.

[janterry]

16. The first author is a transwoman and focuses on inclusion

She comes to the same conclusion in the data set as Emma Hilton who comes at it from a different angle.

you are not interested in science.

[FreepFryer]

18. This isn't about science and those pushing this discriminatory tripe know it. As do the public. nt

[janterry]

20. It is to me

n/t

[FreepFryer]

23. That's very clear. How many dozens of these articles have you posted here making this claim? nt

[janterry]

24. 10 comments in this thread asserting.....

???

[FreepFryer]

28. Articles. Not comments. Dozens on DU posted here by you on this exact topic and this exact argument.

Never nuanced.

[janterry]

29. Again, I am here to discuss science

n/t

[FreepFryer]

31. Sure. (Nt)

[Dream Girl]

27. Wat are you even saying?

[Dream Girl]

21. Did I say or suggest that anyone would go through gender reassignment in order to obtain an

Advantage in athletics? I would think that trans men who not have the same advantages as the sisgender men they would be competing against. Women athletes have fought so hard to be achieve anything, including athletics. Now we have to cede even that to men. Because it would be discriminatory. They should not earn the medal they’ve work for all their lives? How is that fair to female athletics?

[AZSkiffyGeek]

35. And there it is..."Cede even that to men"

Thanks for showing your hand. Transwomen are men. Thanks for acknowledging your bigotry.

[Dream Girl]

36. I am pro-woman.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

37. Unless they're trans apparently

[Dream Girl]

41. Can women have anything at all?

I don’t care if they are trans. they still have athletic advantages. Unless you decide to stick your fingers in you ears are say “science? Wat science? Ignore science because it is “dehumanizing and “discriminatory “. These are poor arguments indeed.

[FreepFryer]

42. You made a similar comment earlier, that transwomen were men taking something from women.

“ Women athletes have fought so hard to be achieve anything, including athletics. Now we have to cede even that to men. Because it would be discriminatory. ”

[AZSkiffyGeek]

43. Apparently you do care, because you call them men

[janterry]

13. The science is increasingly clear

it's just science-- and there is certainly a male advantage
(more science)

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

[FreepFryer]

15. "Just" science. There is no such thing. See Tuskegee, et al. (Nt)

[janterry]

17. nonsense

n/t

[FreepFryer]

19. Exactly. This anti trans argument in sports is nonsense, dehumanizing and dividing w no cause.

Except hate.

[janterry]

22. No, you are making a nonsense argument

the argument is nonsense because it asserts nothing.

[FreepFryer]

25. Untrue. (Nt)

[janterry]

26. I have given you CLEAR science to peruse

one by a transactivist

[FreepFryer]

30. No, you've reposted dozens of articles on DU claiming a scientific basis for discrimination. (Nt)

[janterry]

32. One by a transwoman

not that science cares how one identifies.

[FreepFryer]

33. Those wrapping themselves in science in order to wield power sure seem to care about how one does.

[janterry]

34. well, take your complaint to her

Most academic journals have links so you can find her.

I've gotta run!

[Dream Girl]

38. Hate? Discrimination?

Not at all.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

39. Are transwomen women?

Answer that question. Pretty simple.

[Dream Girl]

48. They are trans women.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

49. Got it - you're a transphobe.

Thanks for clarifying your bigotry.

[Dream Girl]

56. I guess that means you really have no credible argument if you have to resort to name calling.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

57. Why should I waste arguments?

You've made it clear you think transwomen are men and have no place in women's spaces. Why that's allowed here I don't know, but I'm not an admin. But you are clearly espousing views that should not be accepted here.

[Ms. Toad]

51. Cut this transphobic crap.

They are women. Period.

Someone who is not part of the group who insists a group modifier is necessary is sending a clear message that modified-group isn't a "real" member of the group.

[janterry]

53. This is about the science of sports

n/t

[AZSkiffyGeek]

58. Sure Jan

[Ms. Toad]

61. The post I responded to was one that insisted on modifying the term woman

for some, but not all, women.

That is tranbsphobic.

You, frankly, need to stop carrying water for the Republican 2022push to the polls. It happened with same gender marriage in 2004 - when my marriage was used to drive evangelical, right wing jerks to the polls to vote against my marriage - just to make doubly, and triply sure my marriage (already outlawed in two other laws) could not be recognized. And - way too many DU members carried water for the push (conservatives) to the polls.

In both instances, conservatives carefully chose an issue on which they knew would unite conservtive evangelicals and would wedge Democrats apart - so our candidates had to choose between being elected and supporting LGBTQ individuals.

If you cannot bring yourself to support trans individuals, please, at least be quite on the anti-trans issue Republicans have chosen as a get-out-the-vote tool.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

59. And yet it stands here.

So much for "No bigotry or hate". They've been promoting denying medical treatments to trans teens as well. I wonder when "They shouldn't be allowed in women's bathrooms!" surfaces.

[Ms. Toad]

62. It's all in the mix.

This is the 2004 push to the polls issue of 2022.

In 2004, it was my marriage that was used to elect Bush by driving evangelicals to the polls who - while they were there - voted Republican. Again - they have chosen an issue on which some misguided Democrats agree with Republicans, so our candidates cannot even speak out on our behalf wihtout risking either disenchantment, or outright defection.

And - when we lose in 2022, trans indviduals will be blamed for not being willing to wait for their sparkly ponies. Mark your calendar for about 10PM on election night 2022.

[FreepFryer]

4. Here is another very telling hit piece written by Tanya Aldred, the author of the Guardian piece.

Pretty telling. The “E” in TERF stands for “exclusionary”

If the science seems to point in one direction, the desire for inclusion looks in another. Yet inclusion of whom? The ECB drew up their transgender strategy in consultation with Gendered Intelligence (who work with the trans community) and Stonewall, an LGBT-rights charity. But they spoke to no representatives of exclusively female groups. The prioritising of gender identity over sex also results in the curious ECB rule that a non-binary person - described by the ECB as "someone whose gender identity doesn't sit comfortably with man or woman" - is forbidden to play in the female-only competition. This includes a biological woman.

Women's cricket has come on so much, in investment, media coverage, standards. A career as a professional, once unthinkable, is now feasible. But, even today, girls are not socialised to play sport in the same way as boys, and their participation drops off considerably at puberty. A trans woman playing women's cricket means a biological girl or woman misses out. Harper disputes this. "In a social sense, trans women are women. It is only because people suggest that trans women are really men that this argument is still being had. One in 150 people are trans. You wouldn't ever suggest a redheaded woman is preventing someone of another hair colour playing."

Sport can be so many brilliant things, improving mental and physical wellbeing, and bringing people together. For those suffering the torment of gender dysmorphia, playing alongside others of the same gender may prove a lifeline. It is also true that trans women are not swamping female cricket at any level, and blood testing at recreational level would be impossible.

What value kindness, compassion? Then again, what value safety - at 90mph - or the protected status of women's sport? And that's before even touching on the vexed issue of women's private spaces. At the elite level, tiny differences in performance can make or break a career. We are all constrained by our biology, and sport is, ultimately, a biological test: the gap between men and women is real.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/1235843.html

[Scrivener7]

40. I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that Laurel will win.

[janterry]

46. Kuinini 'Nini' Manumua

is the woman who was ultimately displaced by inclusion of Laurel Hubbard.

She’s 21, and it would have been her first Olympics.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

50. Not sure how a New Zealand competitor would displace someone wearing a "USA" jersey

But keep on TERF-in.

[janterry]

52. You'll have to research how people qualify in weightlifting

It might seem confusing (weightlifting is out of my ordinary ken - as it is yours, clearly). But she got bumped the way the rules work (like dominoes).

Kuinini Manumua is American of Tongan descent, btw. She competed for USA as a junior, and now Tonga as a senior.

If you care about it at all - then look it up!

[pjpossum]

66. In many countries dual-citizens

have the right to compete. I personally have known a number of individuals who were born & raised in the US and were trying to make a team from another country. The decision is up to the individual countries as to whom is eligible.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

67. But Tonga and the United States aren't New Zealand

And if she can't compete for Tonga and is blaming the transwoman, why can't she compete in the US?

[pjpossum]

68. She may have dual-citizenship or ancestral ties with both. Look her up.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

69. I did

and that doesn’t change that the two countries she’s competed/competing for aren’t NewZealand.
There may be other rules in play, but on the face her competing for Tonga shouldn’t be affected by someone competing for NewZealand.

[pjpossum]

70. She may have dual-citizenship with New Zealand

There are many people from Tonga in New Zealand. I am going to assume that you have not had much interaction with Elite level sports. It is much harder to make a National team in the US for a number of reasons. Each sport & country have rules & standards in order to make a team. It is difficult to transition from junior level to senior level. She is young for a sport that is based on strength. She will not reach full strength for a few years. So she probably did not rank in the top 3 in the US. For the Olympics, a number of small countries do not field a full team. Each country pays for their athletes to attend the Olympics. Tonga may not have the funds to pay for very many athletes. So they may have set up certain standards above and beyond Olympic qualifying standards. If she has dual-citizenship with New Zealand, her best course was to try and make the New Zealand team.

[jcmaine72]

54. She deserved better. n/t

[AZSkiffyGeek]

60. Who did?

The person who couldn't qualify for the US Team, or the Tongan team, and is now playing the transphobia card about a person competing on the New Zealand team?

The only people who seem to have an issue are Rightwingers and TERFs.

[Ingloriusbastrd1]

44. It's not that simple, but

I know about folk who transitioned to either place in the gender spectrum; i played competitive soccer at a local coed and women’s only league from 1994 until stage 2 adductor injury took me out in 2018.

We welcomed players who transitioned to either end of the spectrum on the coed team, and also welcomed two players who transitioned to the side of the gender spectrum to join in the women’s only teams - this took place in 2015.

We also mixed it up on informal meet up type gatherings to play recreational soccer.

I never saw any advantage from folk who transitioned! One complained about losing muscle-mass, and exerted no dominion or unfair advantage over other women on the team. The other player whose hormone therapy involved testosterone did reach some parity with the guys on the coed team.

[pjpossum]

45. This issue is complicated & has nuance

I started competing in Track&Field at 8. Medalled in my first age-group nationals at 9. Started attending Olympic training camps at 14. Switched to Velodrome cycling as an adult and competed in Olympic Trials. I have had plenty of lgtbq friends. One friend was one of the 1st women to transition to male. That said, I have some concerns about trans women competing at an ELITE level in women sports. I have no problem with the majority of trans women/girls participating in women's/girls sports. The elite level is another issue. How many of you have basically scheduled your whole life around your training & competition? Twice a day workouts while working full-time?
I have read many of the scientific studies. They basically state that the current information is inconclusive. More studies need to be done. Testosterone is not the only thing that might affect performance. There are permanent changes that occur when humans go through puberty. For example: women's hips become wider & tilt upward. This often causes pronation of the knee. Men don't normally have pronation of the knee. The difference in the hips make a difference in how men' & women's bodies move, which can effect performance.
I want to see some better research completed. If there truly is no advantage that male puberty has on a trans woman, then I have no issue with a trans woman competing at an elite level. But if there is an advantage, then they should not be in elite women's sports.

[janterry]

47. going through male puberty appears

to be the biggest factor (at least as I read the science - right now).

[pjpossum]

55. I agree.

My own personal experience also concurs. I went to a 3 year high school & middle school. In 9th grade there were only 3 boys who could run faster in a 600 meter/yard run. By the end of high school, many of the boys that I had been faster than were now faster than me. Where I was one of the top girls in the LA City schools, these boys who were now faster than me, were not even the top in our league. Let alone being ranked in the entire city.

[janterry]

63. Ross Tucker writes

That the 2016 Olympic 100 m champion was outperformed by 1,826 boys and men in the same year that she won (including 14 year olds, over-50's and paralympic sprinters)

[hlthe2b]

64. Thank you for that post. Yes, this is a highly complex & nuanced issue

It deserves a thoughtful and considered response guided by the best science we have AND considerations for all concerned.

I agree that this is a very different issue at the elite level (it is despicable that the RW is trying to put the spotlight on and thereby exploit kids' sports--where it is both rare as an issue and of limited consequence in terms of the long term competitive results).

[pjpossum]

65. Thank you for your thoughtful responce.

One of the few I have seen in this string. I posted because I find all of the name calling despicable. Having reasonable concerns about an issue does not automatically make anyone anti-anything. We shouldn't fear science. Let's find out facts, to the best that we are able. And then make reasoned decisions. I too am against the horrible laws that are being passed in many states. But as a former elite athlete with a strong science background, how somebody feels or identifies does not trump factual science.

[Ellen Forradalom]

71. Agreed

Discussion isn’t hate. Screaming at women to shut up shows sexism is alive and well.