PAUL: Who’s next on Obama’s drone hit list?
I'm sorry to {urinate} in your Wheaties, but he does have a point.
No Kool-Aid for me, thank you.
PAUL: Whos next on Obamas drone hit list?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/15/whos-next-on-obamas-drone-hit-list/
Fundamental right to trial by jury goes missing
....
The most infamous American killed by drone was Anwar al-Awlaki. He was targeted for months long enough and publicly enough that his father actually protested in court but was not heard.
Now, I have no sympathy for al-Awlaki. From what Ive read in the lay press, I have concluded that he was a traitor. As a juror, I would have voted to convict him of treason. My question is, since his targeting was public and prolonged, why did we not try him for treason? If he didnt show up, we could have tried him in absentia. If secret testimony was needed, it could have been heard before the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.
Why should we do all this for a traitor? Because were Americans. Because we prize our belief in trial by jury overseen by a judge. It is in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Because what makes us distinctly American is our belief in adjudicated justice. Because what the terrorists wish to destroy is exactly that freedom.
Moreover, a few weeks after we killed al-Awlaki, we killed his 16-year-old son with a drone strike. Can a 16-year-old be a terrorist or a traitor? Absolutely, but am I the only American who believes that this 16-year-old also deserved the contemplation of a jury and a judge?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)struggle4progress
(118,292 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)I have found that facts don't matter much for people that do that. Or is this a case of "When 'we' do it it is OK, but when 'they' do it, it is not OK?
Whatever, killing American citizens, without a hearing, without a trial, just on someone's say-so, or because they are on a list, is unconstitutional, so therefore you are out of line.
Edited to add:
Since we have already set the precedent, what is to stop some other country to start doing the same thing to us, because of our terrorist activities in other countries?
struggle4progress
(118,292 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Discredit the story then.
struggle4progress
(118,292 posts)of the Administration's stance and his own unprincipled position
There has been long debate in the US over the question whether efforts against various terrorists should be conducted by using war powers or by using the criminal justice system. The current administration has repeatedly indicated a preference for using the criminal justice whenever possible, most recently exhibited by the prosecution of Suleiman Abu Ghaith:
In US court, bin Laden relative denies plot charge
By REUTERS
03/08/2013 21:45
Son-in-law of bin Laden, charged with conspiring to kill Americans, becoming one of highest-ranking al-Qaida figures to face trial in US for crimes connected to 9/11 attacks.
The prior administration, of course, always preferred a military response, and Republicans continue to oppose use of the criminal justice justice system:
Republicans Decry Obamas Decision to Try Al Qaeda Suspect in Civilian Court
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/03/republicans-decry-obamas-decision-to-try-al-qaeda-suspects-in-civilian-court
John Parkinson
Mary Bruce
Mar 8, 2013 4:12pm
Republican opposition has frequently been able to prevent use of the criminal justice system:
Congress Bars Gitmo Transfers
December 23, 2010
By PETER LANDERS
Differing standards apply to military operations and standard criminal prosecutions. In particular, the targets of criminal prosecution enjoy certain definitive rights; in comparison, the "rights" of military targets are considerably diminished. In determining what constitutes a "proper" military target, we should at least ask whether the military operation has been lawfully authorized, which involves consideration of Congressional acts. Congress has repeatedly authorized military operations against al-Qaeda. In determining whether a military operation is appropriate against alleged al-Qaeda operatives, we might also consider prospects for bringing the person into custody for criminal prosecutions. The administration was able to bring abu Ghaith into custody and did so; however, the administration concluded that it could not bring bin Laden and al-Awlaki into custody and therefore proceeded militarily. The current administration has never claimed any blanket authority for military operations against any target whatsoever that it may choose: it has noticed that Congress authorized military operations against al-Qaeda, and it cannot fail to have noticed that Congress has in some cases insisted that terrorist suspects be handled militarily rather than by the ordinary criminal justice system
There is certainly such a thing as principled opposition to warfare, and I consider such principled opposition honorable. War inevitably involves the death of innocents, among whom we should probably count al-Awlaki's 16yo son Abdulrahman. The death of innocents is tragic and constitutes a good argument against war
Similarly, I do not doubt that there are good arguments against the use of drones: for example, there is reason to expect that civilian populations subject to drone attacks will resent the drones and despise those who employ the drones, so that the long-term consequences of drone use may be entirely counter-productive to American interests, whatever the short-term advantages might be
The Moonie Times, however, is not motivated by principled opposition to warfare, nor is it motivated by concern about eventual blowback from drone attacks. It is motivated by the prospect of uniting conservatives against administration, as is Rand Paul. The giveaway is the alleged concern for al-Awlaki's rights as an American citizen and the associated claim, made repeatedly by Paul and others, that the administration has claimed some general power to assassinate any American anywhere, a power which (in fact) the administration has never claimed. Opposition to military operations, on the grounds that persons may unfairly die, makes perfect sense. But opposition to military operations, appropriately authorized by Congress, on the grounds that it may violate the constitutional rights of Americans fighting on the opposite side, is an incoherent position, here intended only to provide rightwing ultra-nationalists with a huff-n-puff talking point associated with their dishonest efforts to portray the current President as a dangerous and dictatorial tyrant who claims he has the right and power to assassinate any American anywhere. Similarly, there are principled arguments against the use of drones in foreign warfare, but there is no coherent argument that drones are inappropriate simply because may violate the constitutional rights of Americans fighting on the opposite side
Rand Paul's behavior is shameful demagoguery, and the Moonie Times has been the outlet for such demagoguery from the day of its first appearance. There is really no reason ever to link to the Moonie Times
sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)It always kind of pisses me off when someone asks for data, then you provide it and nothing...
FWIW the moonie times should be banned as a source completely. It's as useless as world nut daily.
On edit: It hasn't been that long maybe I can declare you the provisional winner but I'm afraid we'll have to wait for the declared TKO.
alp227
(32,027 posts)Like how Congress REPEATEDLY blocks funding to close G-mo and Republicans have ALWAYS opposed trying the 9/11 suspects in fed courts?
John2
(2,730 posts)any intentions of going into combat against the U.S. government? War is hell, signed General Tecumseh Sherman. If you don't, I advise you to stay in the country and defend your honor.
locks
(2,012 posts)Thanks for the post. This is probably the first time I have ever agreed with Rand Paul or the Washington Times on anything. What does it matter their motivation? They are asking the questions I want to ask our government. I feel it is my duty as an American, as a Democrat, as a liberal, to stand for justice and against policies which are undemocratic and unconstitutional. I believe the killing of anyone without due process is wrong. I want my President and Congress to adhere to the Bill of Rights for every person no matter what they have done. War is being used as an excuse to cover actions we know are not just and which will only bring us more hatred and more killing.
mahatmakanejeeves
(57,487 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 11, 2013, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm delighted to see that someone with a few hundred posts "gets it," when others with tens of thousands do not.
I feel a strong urge to walk down to the National Archives to look at the copy of the Magna Carta that David Rubenstein has lent to the American people.
On December 18, 2007, David Rubenstein purchased the last privately owned copy of the Magna Carta at Sotheby's auction house in New York for $21.3 million. He has lent it to the National Archives in Washington D.C.
Uh-oh: he made his money (some of it, at least) while working for the Carlyle Group. Thus, if I look at the Magna Carta, I'll be a right wing tool.
Welcome to TLF again. Sometimes it's like herding cats here, but that only adds to the fun.
Best wishes.
kitt6
(516 posts)The KKK. I'm like Bill Maher. Going to have to do something about the extremes.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Moonie Times does not belong here.