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A video they don't want you to see - Odessa - Warning- Disturbing (Original Post) newthinking May 2014 OP
They were shot and beaten if they tried to get out. Warning -Graphic newthinking May 2014 #1
On the contrary levp May 2014 #16
In other posts I mentioned this too. There are 4 sides to the building newthinking May 2014 #18
Why do you not show both in this post Duckhunter935 May 2014 #22
1. Who are "they"? 2. What the hell is happening in the video? Common Sense Party May 2014 #2
The massacre in Odessa. 30 people, many burned alive newthinking May 2014 #6
and you are no better in the spin Duckhunter935 May 2014 #23
They took a great risk dvduval May 2014 #3
Huh, these were not militants. Odessa is different newthinking May 2014 #5
When people with guns seize buildings... dvduval May 2014 #8
You are not well informed or purposely lying. There was no armed takeover in Odessa newthinking May 2014 #9
People are better informed that you are giving them credit for levp May 2014 #12
Your balanced sources are the same ones that brought us Iraq...nt Jesus Malverde May 2014 #15
Wait, which levp May 2014 #17
Sorry, previous post was meant for levp newthinking May 2014 #21
I don't research on RT. I know enough Ukrainian and Russian to learn for myself newthinking May 2014 #20
That is wrong and is one video you keep posting Duckhunter935 May 2014 #24
Half those killed were Russian citizens (15). OilemFirchen May 2014 #26
Source? Also, you are aware than many Ukrainians have dual citizenship with Russia right? newthinking May 2014 #31
Very good assessment IMHO. n/t levp May 2014 #13
They deserved it! Burn baby burn! newthinking May 2014 #19
What polls? Taken when? MattSh May 2014 #29
A quick scan of videos and current propaganda from both sides looks like Warpy May 2014 #4
The country was poor and they had problems but they were peaceful before. This did not have to newthinking May 2014 #7
Who were a right-wing group - Klichko? levp May 2014 #11
We have a romantasized view of modern civil war. The extremists will run the show. Will be neo-nazis newthinking May 2014 #10
Modern civil war? Benton D Struckcheon May 2014 #27
It's what fascist do, chase people into a building and set it on fire...nt Jesus Malverde May 2014 #14
These are "Right Sector" party members . . . another_liberal May 2014 #25
Enough Jack Rabbit May 2014 #28
you mean "the video Putin does want you to interpret his way" nt uhnope May 2014 #30

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
18. In other posts I mentioned this too. There are 4 sides to the building
Mon May 5, 2014, 03:58 AM
May 2014

Yes there were people that did not go along. Did you look at the video? Notice the guy on the right with the club hit one of those who had lept?
There are other videos that show people shooting at others trying to leave the windows.

The lights were shut down in the middle of everything and people had trouble with darkness and smoke. If they were lucky they found the window on the back side and not where the right sector thugs were at. it's a big building.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
22. Why do you not show both in this post
Mon May 5, 2014, 06:59 AM
May 2014

You only show the Pro-Russian side but you admit there are videos showing Maidan helping also. It is much more complex and you know it. It is like you just have an agenda.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
6. The massacre in Odessa. 30 people, many burned alive
Mon May 5, 2014, 01:59 AM
May 2014

And the story is being spun in the Ukrainian (and thus to the US) media terribly.

 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
23. and you are no better in the spin
Mon May 5, 2014, 07:02 AM
May 2014

Yes this is a tragedy and should not have happened. Same as the firing on maidan marchers from rooftops and streets should not have happened. Two armed and worked up groups of thugs and this happens.

dvduval

(260 posts)
3. They took a great risk
Mon May 5, 2014, 01:48 AM
May 2014

Not saying either side is free of fault, but the armed militia that seized the building took a great risk in doing that, and knew in advance they could be confronted with force. What happened was extremely unfortunate, and moving toward free elections is a better path than taking over buildings with guns. Polls show a large majority of Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia, including many Russian speakers.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
5. Huh, these were not militants. Odessa is different
Mon May 5, 2014, 01:58 AM
May 2014

The maidan and anti-maidan had coexisted peacefully there for weeks in tent camps on the weekend.
They had not "taken over" the building. They fled to it from the tents when the mob started beating them.

These were not the same people who were in the skirmish in the center! It was plain blood lust.

Half of the mob was drunk. And it was a planned action well after the clash in the center.

dvduval

(260 posts)
8. When people with guns seize buildings...
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:34 AM
May 2014

... that already creates to possibility that lives will be lost.

The Ukrainian military is weak. Pro-Russian separatists hope that Russia will send in troops. By creating situations where armed men go in and seize buildings, that puts the Ukrainian military/police in a very difficult predicament.

Should they just stand by and let Pro-Russian forces take over as they did in Crimea?
Or should they try to confront them?
If they do try to confront them, might incidents like this occur?
If incidents like this occur, is that what Russia needs for a reason to send in troops to foreign soil?

To say the two camps co-existed peacefully ignores the fact that armed men took over government buildings not just in Odessa but in other places. That creates a crazy situation where crazy things can happen.

Again, the better path is to proceed toward free elections where the people of Ukraine can decide. If the majority were to speak now, including in Eastern Ukraine, the answer is pretty obvious. Put down the guns and go to the polling booths.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
9. You are not well informed or purposely lying. There was no armed takeover in Odessa
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:39 AM
May 2014

half those killed were women and old men. Get your mind out of the propaganda, these are real people. These were not even "Pro-Russians", they were protesting for federalization.

Of course today there was a mob at the police station. Because many in Ukraine know what happened and know the context.

Odessa is in the south west. Get out a map!

levp

(188 posts)
12. People are better informed that you are giving them credit for
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:56 AM
May 2014

We all have access to the Internet and can read/watch.
The point is to balance RT.com with other sources.

levp

(188 posts)
17. Wait, which
Mon May 5, 2014, 03:08 AM
May 2014

Ukrainian publications/sites have brought us Iraq? UNIAN? HromadskeTV? Kyiv Post?
Citation required.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
20. I don't research on RT. I know enough Ukrainian and Russian to learn for myself
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:40 AM
May 2014

Mostly from local sites. It is also very clear from the videos taken the events. There were lots of videos taken by both sides. Read the accounts and corroborated them against what is happening in the videos.

Do you really feel you can trust Kyiv media as accurate when Svoboda is in charge of media "freedom".

This is (literally) Svoboda PMs enforcing media reports through threatening the manager and making him quit under threat. Those MPs, as well as the ones in the other Executive positions are mysteriously still in those places of power? Imagine that?


 

Duckhunter935

(16,974 posts)
24. That is wrong and is one video you keep posting
Mon May 5, 2014, 07:04 AM
May 2014

any others of all of the right sector doing this in the government, must be hundreds from what you say.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
26. Half those killed were Russian citizens (15).
Mon May 5, 2014, 09:38 AM
May 2014

Another five from the Transnistria region.

They were not "Pro-Russians", they were actual Russians.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
31. Source? Also, you are aware than many Ukrainians have dual citizenship with Russia right?
Tue May 6, 2014, 01:25 AM
May 2014

Oh, and the US itself said there was no Russian involvement in the Odessa events

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
19. They deserved it! Burn baby burn!
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:00 AM
May 2014


Get a little empathy. 30 people died. At least get informed before you jump on their corpses (rhetorically). This was all hashed earlier today and the videos are available further down the video forum.

Warpy

(111,267 posts)
4. A quick scan of videos and current propaganda from both sides looks like
Mon May 5, 2014, 01:50 AM
May 2014

it's now a civil war, especially in the east. The people in the west don't want to be under Russia's Communist boot heel and the people in the east are all wound up with lizard Illuminati and NWO/Nazi rubbish. However, both have a point and after they kill a lot of people and level a few cities they might decide to go it on their own, loyalty to no geopolitical bloc or country but their own.

As usual, my only sympathy lies with the people who are hoping the fighting doesn't extend their way as they store food and water, hunker down and prepare for the worst.

For now, both sides are digging in their heels as they dig up the pavement to throw. None of this is going to end well.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
7. The country was poor and they had problems but they were peaceful before. This did not have to
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:27 AM
May 2014

happen.

I have tried to tell people here that Maidan was not representative. They were a right wing group that only represented something akin to our 'Tea Party" aligned with Neo-Nazis.

This has polarized the country. Ethnic hatred is raging on one side and revenge is raging on the other. This is an absolute catastrophe.

They had better meet quick and they better be prepared to be flexible, because it looks otherwise like it will be civil war.

levp

(188 posts)
11. Who were a right-wing group - Klichko?
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:54 AM
May 2014

Give me a break...

In other words, the people who took over the Trade Union building in Odessa were just peaceful old men and women, but the people on the Maidan were right-wing neo-nazis.

Sure.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
10. We have a romantasized view of modern civil war. The extremists will run the show. Will be neo-nazis
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:45 AM
May 2014

and militants, the rest of the people will be in fear and caught up.

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
27. Modern civil war?
Mon May 5, 2014, 09:41 AM
May 2014

Any civil war is extremely nasty.

From Free State Civil War Events and the Jasper Raid

"It was on or about the 8th of June, 1862, when Stoke Roberts, with about 20 men, came into the county [Winston]. It was said that the group came from Eldridge, the west part of Walker County; that, while their names are not known, the men lived in northeast Fayette, southeast Marion, and northwest Walker. Roberts and his men arrived in the vicinity of Rock Creek Baptist Church, about four miles north of Double Springs, about eight o’clock, A.M. Wash Curtis, the oldest son of Solomon Curtis and a brother of [Probate] Judge Tom Pink Curtis, lived about two hundred yards northeast of the church. ‘Wash’ Curtis had been hunting as well as hiding from the ‘invaders,’ as he called the Enlistment Officers, just as many others were doing...Wash Curtis rode up to his home and hitched his horse. His daughter had arrived with her young baby about eight o’clock, or a little before. The weather was a little cool. Shortly after Wash reached the door and greeted his daughter with a kiss, his wife returned with two buckets of water from the spring. Her given name as shown by the U.S. Census in 1860 was Nancy, her daughter being named for her mother. ‘Wash Curtis, Dear, I have got a plenty of food prepared for you to do you a couple of days, there in that sack. You should lose no time in getting it, and getting away from here. Strange men have been slipping around here. Two groups have been in sight at two different times in the last half hour. They are surely Confederates, for they didn’t look right. Wash, I beg you, believe your dear wife, you had better get your sack of food, and get away from here, or it will be too late. We will all be in trouble, unless you hurry. Go now!’ Wash replied to his wife, ‘Dear, I have not seen my grandchild, as it is on the bed asleep. I will have to hug and kiss my grandbaby this morning, for I may never see it again.’ Just as Wash was making the foregoing reply, his daughter ran into the house, grabbed her sleeping baby in her arms and ran back to her father, who hastily took it into his arms, hugged and kissed it, while tears were streaming down his cheeks. While this was taking place, Wash’s wife screamed out: ‘Wash, yonder they come! Be in a hurry, or they will get you...It was too late. Just as he got balanced in his saddle, he applied his heel spurs to his horse a little too hard. This excited the horse, and caused him to stand on his rear feet. Just as the horse’s front feet reached the ground, he refused to go forward. Wash, again, applied his spurs to the horse’s sides, which caused the horse to stand on his rear feet again when Wash, about the same time pulled the left rein of the bridle, which caused the horse to whirl to the left in a circle almost half around to face the invaders. They were within sixty to seventy-five yards up the road, the old Cheatham Road, and they were still getting nearer every second. Without any orders to halt, or any warning whatever to the victim, Wash Curtis was shot by several of the invaders led by Stoke Roberts. Wash died in less than a minute. When Roberts saw that Wash Curtis was dead, he immediately turned and fled up the road, down which they came. They fled in great haste...
The Home Guard was a group, usually of older men not able to fight in the Confederacy, who went around to get supplies for the Confederate Army. However, several of these groups turned out to be robbers and murderers. In December of 1863, the second child of Solomon Curtis to die during the Civil War was Joel Jackson Curtis from the actions of Captain F. Lee B. Goodwin's men. The following is an account from And West is West by Charles E. Wilson:

"The Home Guard captured Joel and carried him to Jasper and put him in jail. He was given five days to sign up with the Confederate Army. Joel refused and they carried him to what they called the Slaughter Pen and shot him in the back. He was buried in a shallow grave. At the time of Joel’s death he was married to Lucinda Barker. When Lucinda heard of Joel’s death she went to Jasper, dug him up, and brought him to Union Grove. Some of the neighbors helped to bury him next to Wash and Solomon. Lucinda made this trip in a steer wagon, which was a slow way to travel. She had to make this trip herself. The men knew if they went to help her they would be put in jail. On her way back some of the people along the way tried to get her to spend the night with them. She refused due to the condition of Joel’s body as he was stinking."


Then comes the revenge:

In August of 1864, Jim Curtis, another brother to those killed and was also, at one time, tax collector of Winston County, learned about the deaths of his brothers and got a furlough from the Union Army; he worked in a hospital. While he was at home, he was captured by Southern Raiders and put in jail in Jasper. Either on the way to the jail or during his stay in the jail, he learned the names of the men who took part in the killing of his brothers...Jim Curtis continued his "manhunt" of those who took part in the killing of his brothers. He killed two of them in Walker County, shooting them in the dogtrot of their home. He also killed two in Texas and two in Mississippi.


Civil wars are blood feuds, and they don't end until everyone's desire for revenge has been slaked, or everyone is dead. That's always been true, and if Ukraine slides into one, it will be true for them too. Nothing modern about it; it's as old as humanity. Which is why the responsibility of all concerned should be to make sure it does not happen.
 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
25. These are "Right Sector" party members . . .
Mon May 5, 2014, 08:45 AM
May 2014

The same who burned buildings in Kiev, and who recently staged a violent parade/riot in Kiev.

Why hasn't the World condemned these criminals?

Jack Rabbit

(45,984 posts)
28. Enough
Mon May 5, 2014, 10:30 AM
May 2014

There's an awful lot of spin on this thread and very little that is helpful.

There are right wing thugs on both sides of this conflict. Is anyone surprised? One side features an ultranationalist president, puffing up his country's imperialist past like it's a positive thing, who wants to solve his problems by annexing territory in a sovereign state and otherwise dominate politics in that state. The other side quite naturally want to resist the violation of their national sovereignty. This is the kind of situation that brings right wing ultranationalist thugs out of the woodwork.

Stop playing the victim card, already. It's an ugly situation driven by ugly people trying to kill each other. There are few saints on either side. It is grotesque to try to paint one side as Jews and the other as Nazis.

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