Video & Multimedia
Related: About this forumnewthinking
(3,982 posts)levp
(188 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Yes there were people that did not go along. Did you look at the video? Notice the guy on the right with the club hit one of those who had lept?
There are other videos that show people shooting at others trying to leave the windows.
The lights were shut down in the middle of everything and people had trouble with darkness and smoke. If they were lucky they found the window on the back side and not where the right sector thugs were at. it's a big building.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)You only show the Pro-Russian side but you admit there are videos showing Maidan helping also. It is much more complex and you know it. It is like you just have an agenda.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Some context or explanation is in order.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)And the story is being spun in the Ukrainian (and thus to the US) media terribly.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Yes this is a tragedy and should not have happened. Same as the firing on maidan marchers from rooftops and streets should not have happened. Two armed and worked up groups of thugs and this happens.
dvduval
(260 posts)Not saying either side is free of fault, but the armed militia that seized the building took a great risk in doing that, and knew in advance they could be confronted with force. What happened was extremely unfortunate, and moving toward free elections is a better path than taking over buildings with guns. Polls show a large majority of Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia, including many Russian speakers.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)The maidan and anti-maidan had coexisted peacefully there for weeks in tent camps on the weekend.
They had not "taken over" the building. They fled to it from the tents when the mob started beating them.
These were not the same people who were in the skirmish in the center! It was plain blood lust.
Half of the mob was drunk. And it was a planned action well after the clash in the center.
dvduval
(260 posts)... that already creates to possibility that lives will be lost.
The Ukrainian military is weak. Pro-Russian separatists hope that Russia will send in troops. By creating situations where armed men go in and seize buildings, that puts the Ukrainian military/police in a very difficult predicament.
Should they just stand by and let Pro-Russian forces take over as they did in Crimea?
Or should they try to confront them?
If they do try to confront them, might incidents like this occur?
If incidents like this occur, is that what Russia needs for a reason to send in troops to foreign soil?
To say the two camps co-existed peacefully ignores the fact that armed men took over government buildings not just in Odessa but in other places. That creates a crazy situation where crazy things can happen.
Again, the better path is to proceed toward free elections where the people of Ukraine can decide. If the majority were to speak now, including in Eastern Ukraine, the answer is pretty obvious. Put down the guns and go to the polling booths.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)half those killed were women and old men. Get your mind out of the propaganda, these are real people. These were not even "Pro-Russians", they were protesting for federalization.
Of course today there was a mob at the police station. Because many in Ukraine know what happened and know the context.
Odessa is in the south west. Get out a map!
levp
(188 posts)We all have access to the Internet and can read/watch.
The point is to balance RT.com with other sources.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)levp
(188 posts)Ukrainian publications/sites have brought us Iraq? UNIAN? HromadskeTV? Kyiv Post?
Citation required.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Mostly from local sites. It is also very clear from the videos taken the events. There were lots of videos taken by both sides. Read the accounts and corroborated them against what is happening in the videos.
Do you really feel you can trust Kyiv media as accurate when Svoboda is in charge of media "freedom".
This is (literally) Svoboda PMs enforcing media reports through threatening the manager and making him quit under threat. Those MPs, as well as the ones in the other Executive positions are mysteriously still in those places of power? Imagine that?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)any others of all of the right sector doing this in the government, must be hundreds from what you say.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Another five from the Transnistria region.
They were not "Pro-Russians", they were actual Russians.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Oh, and the US itself said there was no Russian involvement in the Odessa events
levp
(188 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Get a little empathy. 30 people died. At least get informed before you jump on their corpses (rhetorically). This was all hashed earlier today and the videos are available further down the video forum.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)If they are more than 1-2 weeks old, they're already invalid. Obviously.
Warpy
(111,267 posts)it's now a civil war, especially in the east. The people in the west don't want to be under Russia's Communist boot heel and the people in the east are all wound up with lizard Illuminati and NWO/Nazi rubbish. However, both have a point and after they kill a lot of people and level a few cities they might decide to go it on their own, loyalty to no geopolitical bloc or country but their own.
As usual, my only sympathy lies with the people who are hoping the fighting doesn't extend their way as they store food and water, hunker down and prepare for the worst.
For now, both sides are digging in their heels as they dig up the pavement to throw. None of this is going to end well.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)happen.
I have tried to tell people here that Maidan was not representative. They were a right wing group that only represented something akin to our 'Tea Party" aligned with Neo-Nazis.
This has polarized the country. Ethnic hatred is raging on one side and revenge is raging on the other. This is an absolute catastrophe.
They had better meet quick and they better be prepared to be flexible, because it looks otherwise like it will be civil war.
levp
(188 posts)Give me a break...
In other words, the people who took over the Trade Union building in Odessa were just peaceful old men and women, but the people on the Maidan were right-wing neo-nazis.
Sure.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)and militants, the rest of the people will be in fear and caught up.
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)Any civil war is extremely nasty.
From Free State Civil War Events and the Jasper Raid
The Home Guard was a group, usually of older men not able to fight in the Confederacy, who went around to get supplies for the Confederate Army. However, several of these groups turned out to be robbers and murderers. In December of 1863, the second child of Solomon Curtis to die during the Civil War was Joel Jackson Curtis from the actions of Captain F. Lee B. Goodwin's men. The following is an account from And West is West by Charles E. Wilson:
"The Home Guard captured Joel and carried him to Jasper and put him in jail. He was given five days to sign up with the Confederate Army. Joel refused and they carried him to what they called the Slaughter Pen and shot him in the back. He was buried in a shallow grave. At the time of Joels death he was married to Lucinda Barker. When Lucinda heard of Joels death she went to Jasper, dug him up, and brought him to Union Grove. Some of the neighbors helped to bury him next to Wash and Solomon. Lucinda made this trip in a steer wagon, which was a slow way to travel. She had to make this trip herself. The men knew if they went to help her they would be put in jail. On her way back some of the people along the way tried to get her to spend the night with them. She refused due to the condition of Joels body as he was stinking."
Then comes the revenge:
Civil wars are blood feuds, and they don't end until everyone's desire for revenge has been slaked, or everyone is dead. That's always been true, and if Ukraine slides into one, it will be true for them too. Nothing modern about it; it's as old as humanity. Which is why the responsibility of all concerned should be to make sure it does not happen.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)another_liberal
(8,821 posts)The same who burned buildings in Kiev, and who recently staged a violent parade/riot in Kiev.
Why hasn't the World condemned these criminals?
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)There's an awful lot of spin on this thread and very little that is helpful.
There are right wing thugs on both sides of this conflict. Is anyone surprised? One side features an ultranationalist president, puffing up his country's imperialist past like it's a positive thing, who wants to solve his problems by annexing territory in a sovereign state and otherwise dominate politics in that state. The other side quite naturally want to resist the violation of their national sovereignty. This is the kind of situation that brings right wing ultranationalist thugs out of the woodwork.
Stop playing the victim card, already. It's an ugly situation driven by ugly people trying to kill each other. There are few saints on either side. It is grotesque to try to paint one side as Jews and the other as Nazis.