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Tobin S.
(10,418 posts)If you could control what everyone else does it would be true. I think success in life largely comes down to luck. Hard work will only take you so far. If you aren't blessed with some kind of talent, high intelligence, and good fortune, you can pretty much write off effecting your own life circumstances in the future to a large degree.
I say that not believing in destiny at all. The future is not written in stone and anything can happen.
clarice
(5,504 posts)While it is definitely true that the future is NOT cast in stone, doesn't it logically follow that there is something to be said
for the ability, innate in us all, to control our destinies to some degree, by the choices that we make
and the work that we put into a particular endeavor?
example: I was not blessed with a tremendous ingrained musical gift, but through sheer practice and TRY,
I was able to become what some might consider a good guitar player.
Tobin S.
(10,418 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)It's rare for anyone to understand what I'm alluding to.
drm604
(16,230 posts)have a relatively healthy body and an at least normal amount of intelligence and are part of the right group (skin color, religion, etc.) and don't have some other sort of random misfortune.
You can even succeed with some of those things going against you, but if you're burdened too heavily by one or more of them then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you do. Especially if there's no support systems in place to help the less fortunate.
raccoon
(31,119 posts)
ejbr
(5,856 posts)been stuck on the "try" in your equation. Is motivation a self-fulfilling trait or is it innate? If it is the latter, then it is "God-given"; but what of the former? When does free will begin and natural inclination begin? Isn't "free will" just another natural trait instilled in each of us? How can we prove it's not?
clarice
(5,504 posts)1. I think that "try" is largely self-motivational....that being said, a close second would be one's upbringing. By that, I mean
stability in the home....values instilled by peer groups etc.
2. While some people ARE gifted with an innate sense of self/future, I don't believe that that trait
is bestowed by a higher power.
3.Proof? I have no idea....greater minds that mine have pondered that for eons.
Thanks, that was a great post/response.
rurallib
(62,444 posts)
despite the problems created by his birth station
clarice
(5,504 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)In The Extended Mind, a thought experiment is presented to further illustrate the environment's role in connection to the mind. The fictional characters Otto and Inga are both travelling to a museum simultaneously. Otto has Alzheimer's Disease, and has written all of his directions down in a notebook to serve the function of his memory. Inga is able to recall the internal directions within her memory. In a traditional sense, Inga can be thought to have had a belief as to the location of the museum before consulting her memory. In the same manner, Otto can be said to have held a belief of the location of the museum before consulting his notebook. The argument is that the only difference existing in these two cases is that Inga's memory is being internally processed by the brain, while Otto's memory is being served by the notebook. In other words, Otto's mind has been extended to include the notebook as the source of his memory. The notebook qualifies as such because it is constantly and immediately accessible to Otto, and it is automatically endorsed by him.
Going further, the authors ask and answer their own question about the role of enculturation:
"And what about socially-extended cognition? Could my mental states be partly constituted by the states of other thinkers? We see no reason why not, in principle."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Extended_Mind
clarice
(5,504 posts)We can look back to the observations of Carl Jung and his theory of the collective sub conscience , or even further back with selected quotes from Socrates. There seems to be a direct correlation between quantum entanglement and material matter.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)'collective subconscious' and whatnot sounds like shit straight out of the Deepak Chopra generator.
If there's a correlation between the two scales, we've not discovered it yet, however 'obvious' you may think it is.
clarice
(5,504 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Also, I said my piece originally. It's you who dug for more, not me.
gregcrawford
(2,382 posts)... it's Schrodinger's cow. It can be there and not there at the same time. 
clarice
(5,504 posts)
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)1 Shit Happens
2 You can't see it coming
3 We're all in this together
Orrex
(63,220 posts)It's a parlor trick dressed up to sound impressive, but at the end of the day it's little more than a juggling act.
As for that notepad/memory thing, I don't buy it, Otto and Inga notwithstanding.
That's like saying I needed a pencil to jot down a number, but didn't have one. My friend wrote the number for me; therefore my friend is my pencil.
Nonsense.
Postmodernism loves playing tricks of equivocation like that, tweaking a word or a definition here or there and then magically declaring that two things are equal.
When pressed for specifics, fans of PoMo will typically claim that there are no specifics, and they'll dubiously (and selectively) cite Heisenberg or Schroedinger or Jung as "proof."
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)...
This divvying up avoids needless duplication of effort and serves to expand the memory capacity of the group as a whole. When we off-load responsibility for specific types of information to others, we free up cognitive resources that otherwise would have been used to remember this information; in exchange, we use some of these resources to increase our depth of knowledge in the areas for which we are responsible. When group members share responsibility for information, each member has access to knowledge both broader and deeper than could be obtained alone. Distributed memory binds the group together—any one individual is incomplete without being able to draw on the collective knowledge of the rest of the group. If separated, our birthday couple would be at a loss: one partner might wander the streets in top hat and tails while the other would arrive at the party on time wearing a sweatshirt.
This tendency to distribute information through what we call a “transactive memory system” developed in a world of face-to-face interactions, one in which the human mind represented the pinnacle of information storage. Yet this world no longer exists. With the development of the Internet, the human mind has been reduced from a powerhouse to an also-ran.
...
A New Partner
One recent experiment from our group demonstrated the extent to which the Internet is beginning to replace a friend or family member as a companion in sharing the daily tasks of remembering. Betsy Sparrow of Columbia University, Jenny Liu, then at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and one of us (Wegner) asked participants to copy 40 memorable factoids into a computer (for example: “An ostrich's eye is bigger than its brain”). Half of the people in the experiment were told that their work would be saved on the computer; the other half were told that it would be erased. Additionally, half of each group was asked to remember the information, whether or not it was being recorded by the computer.
We found that those who believed the computer had saved the list of facts were much worse at remembering. People seemed to treat the computer like the transactive memory partners that we started studying decades ago: off-loading information to this cloud mind rather than storing it internally. Strikingly, this tendency persisted when people were explicitly asked to keep the information in mind. It seems that the propensity for off-loading information to digital sources is so strong that people are often unable to fix details in their own thoughts when in the presence of a cyberbuddy.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-internet-has-become-the-external-hard-drive-for-our-memories/
First Speaker
(4,858 posts)...of my fate, I am the Captain of my soul...*click*...I am the Master...
clarice
(5,504 posts)First Speaker
(4,858 posts)...that has that line in it. I thought quoting it would be a (very) mild joke on the theme of the thread...
clarice
(5,504 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)That was the first thing I thought of: Invictus. I also remember winning a bar bet - a beer - in college from someone who was certain that the poem was by Tennyson.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)
TexasBushwhacker
(20,211 posts)to the hand that life deals me.
clarice
(5,504 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,211 posts)if not outright control, but there are surprises, and I don't think you can know how you will respond until the situation happens. If someone with a crystal ball had told me I would care for my mother for 9 years while she battled breast cancer and keep my sanity, I would have laughed in their face. Some people are stronger than they think they are, and some are weaker. You don't know until it happens to you.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Life CAN throw us curves....and I guess that all we can do is to keep learning, growing, taking responsibility,
and trying to make the right choices.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)And some people are far more willing to take chances than others. I don't think that ability is a choice...I think it's innate to each of us from our genes. So what we do with what we are given to work with, is very much up to us, but some are willing to risk losing more than others and end up gaining more than others because of the game of chance, or of their skill and dedication.
It's not a yes or no question as to controlling our own fate. We have some control. Not all. We can learn from what we are dealt, but again some people can handle things differently than others.
Say a child is sexually abused. Some children grow up to be abusers. Some grow up to be prostitutes. Some grow up to be frigid. Some grow up to be afraid of the opposite sex and relationships. Some manage to grow up fairly normal, and not have serious consequences from it. Some grow up with physical problems from it and others don't. That can also seriously affect their lives.
That is just one example...I could come up with a million more, but I have personal experience with this one and I know it can really throw someone's life in the drink.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Coming from a very restrictive childhood (thankfully nothing like sexual abuse) I can say that I decided at a very early age, not to repeat the mistakes of my fore fathers. I decided that this was MY life and chose to move to another state, and groomed myself
in the ways that I thought would help me to succeed.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)You must be a very strong person to be able to reshape yourself and find the life you wanted, in spite of your upbringing. I was unable to move away from my situation because I was twelve and by the time I left at 18 I had too many emotional scars from living with a step-father from hell, who resented me because I resisted and eventually stopped his advances. He took it out on me until I left home. My Mother even kicked me out at 18 because she didn't know why I was so difficult to live with and so angry at him all the time, and almost failed high school. Of course in those days, you didn't talk about those things. Thankfully times have changed. Kids can get help these days at an early age, when they need it.
I was left with both emotional scars that prevented me from having any healthy relationships, and have led me to mental illness as an adult because I could not handle abuse from managers (and there are a lot of abusive managers out there); and physical scars that prevented me from ever having a child, so now I live alone and am aging with no family to care for me. It's a lonely and scary way to go out. I made pretty good money until my mental health went down hill...I've been single and poor ever since.
Could I have been a pollyanna and kicked this in the butt as a kid? I wish, but I don't think so. Like I said, different people react to things different ways. I did the best I could with the hand I was dealt. But at least I didn't get as bad a hand as some people. Some kids die of cancer early in life. Were they masters of their fate?
nightscanner59
(802 posts)I ran away from abuse and neglect at 16. Frankly I remained in a denial and self-shame state for years afterwards. I had to just block out the hateful hell so many had put me through once I was outed as gay. Relatives of master of hate himself Fred Phelps spearheaded my torment in teenage, but oddly I never really faced my demons until after I fell victim to another anti-gay hate crime 6 years ago.
It actually came to me in one of my PTSD nightmares to recall that my own father had attempted to murder me by setting up a 220 volt electrical death trap for me. Although it was directly after this that I left my "home" for good and endured homelessness and starvation, dumpster diving and hustling to survive.
I had simply blocked out, subconsciously the hatred I'd endured. It came close to surfacing whenever I saw young people my age enjoying a loving family. Thanksgiving of 1977 I watched a family through their front window from obscurity enjoy their feast when all I'd had to eat in days was a package of Lorna Doone shortbread cookies I rescued from a dumpster. I seriously contemplated suicide, even planned how to do it.
I can't stomach a shortbread cookie to this day.
I have lived my entire adult life compensating for a bad start. I still have no conventional home, just company paid housing from workplace to workplace.
My parents are deceased, and took their hatreds straight to their graves. My aunt and uncle, also long deceased, eventually rescued me from my predicament when I was nearly 18. They taught me many conventional wisdoms and everything practical, and helped my start in college, living in an old RV in their back yard. My aunt never knew I heard her give my parents a long tongue lashing over the telephone for their neglecting me that was oddly self-satisfying to overhear.
"Make your own destiny" is pure bullshit, and comes from the rotten spoiled forked tongues of the likes of Donald Trump who whined about having to return the million dollar loan his father started him out on. Like, wow.
I'm nearing retirement age. I'll have nothing but social security income to live on. Every time I've started to save up a retirement fund another life disaster, directly related to my low income housing situations, and now 6 years ago to medical catastrophe, has robbed it all away.
I've only ever been able to establish relationships with other men who have also had intensely unstable upbringings. Unfortunately, many of them compensated for their depression via intense sexual gratification. I am now 26 years widowed.
I've come to accept that I'll never have anything even close to a "conventional american life". I've found the places to go to live comfortably homeless with my canine companion between job contracts. My arthritis and injuries from six years ago have made many jobs cut short. I've made my sole goal to obtain whatever late model motorhome I can scratch up at retirement time. And I can only pray no more major disasters fuck that up too.
Childhood PTSD can really fuck your whole life up. Bernie Sanders seems to be the only politician who represents the likes of you, me and 99 percent of the youth these days. Despite the mechanisms in place to help them that were nonexistent in our day, the financial deck is so stacked against them now that any of the false patriotism and middle-class appeal of our more "conventional" candidates must hurt their ears so much I'm afraid most have simply tuned it out.
Be strong, fellow traveler. Google Holtville Hot Springs. Many of us with the fates we share winter there. And you'd be surprised how healing that place can be.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)You've had it harder than me. I wish there was a way for people like us to help each other, but we all have so little to give and we live too far apart Yet we give what we have because we understand the pain. Sometimes all we can give is understanding and love. 
Sounds like you didn't quite become master of your fate either. what a surprise...some people believe in miracles, or pink glittery ponies or something. I'm grounded in real life.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,211 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)
kairos12
(12,869 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)
hibbing
(10,109 posts)I go back and forth on this one. Yes, you can control some things, and of course you cannot control some things. We had to read this book at work. The Energy Bus, it was all about you are the driver of your bus blah blah blah. I did not buy into it.
I do think a lot of people, and I include myself in this, especially career wise, could do better, but I have been in a somewhat comfort zone and sometimes that is hard mindset to get out of. Maybe I will make that one of my New Year's resolutions for next year, to try to control more of my destiny. My plate is already full of resolutions for 2016.
Can someone make themselves happy? Content? Satisfied? Wouldn't these be some of the things we would all strive for if we could control our destiny?
I look forward to reading some thoughtful responses from others.
Peace
clarice
(5,504 posts)Never read "energy bus"....sounds kinda corny.
If you would like a good scientific read on the subject..may I suggest
The Self Aware Universe...How consciousness creates the material world by Amit Goswami.
If you are truly happy within your comfort zone, I would posit that you are already
somewhat ahead of the game. I am reminded of the quote " A rich man is not judged by the number
of his possessions, but by how much he enjoys the possessions that he has."
Yes, and no. Yes, I think that we have the ability to control our environment (somewhat) by our
choices/attitude. No, I don't think that many people believe or KNOW that these changes can be made.
In addition, I think that some people are more comfortable complaining about their allotted stations in life
and would rather dwell on this rather than make an effort to change.
hibbing
(10,109 posts)If so, where is the distinction between fate and being able to determine your own destiny?
Peace
NJCher
(35,716 posts)man's search for meaning by victor frankl.
Cher
clarice
(5,504 posts)NJCher
(35,716 posts)I was posting on my iPad Mini in bed last night. But anyway, I meant to come back and post a little more. This is a classic on self-determination. Here is a comment from the Amazon comments section by a poster named Cipriano:
According to Frankl, the strength of a person's sense of meaning, responsibility, and purpose is the greatest determining factor in how that question will be answered. He believed that "man is ultimately self-determining" and as such, "does not simply exist but always decides what his existence will be, what he will become in the next moment."
What makes this book particularly relevant to your question is that Frankl shows how one can determine much about one's self--even in the face of the massive dehumanization inflicted by the Nazis.
Cher
clarice
(5,504 posts)Would this, and related subjects, be a good choice for a new forum on DU?
mythology
(9,527 posts)I think most people don't recognize the impact of their choices either due to not realizing they are making a choice, or believing they don't have a choice.
Even something like cancer can be influenced by your diet, or where you live.
I'm currently in the last stages of recovering from a major knee surgery that has a relatively high risk of not being able to return to sports when you're done. But by doing my rehab (I missed two days of rehab work in 6 months) and doing additional things to strengthen my leg/knee, I managed to set myself well ahead of schedule in terms of leg strength and likelihood of returning to sports. Yet I see other people who have the same surgery either give up, or not do their rehab and find they aren't progressing.
Yes a bolt of lightning could hit me tomorrow. But I can take steps to put myself in the best situations and I find that the harder I work, the luckier I get.
That said, most people who think that they know me in real life, seem to think that I'm Eeyore and that bad things will always happen to me, but those same people don't realize that I use that sort of mopiness to fuel my drive (admittedly not the emotionally healthiest approach). I spent 17 years listening to my dad tell me I wasn't good enough and I've spent the last 17 proving that he was wrong.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Secondly, " But I can take steps to put myself in the best situations and I find that the harder I work, the luckier I get."
I hope you realize that you have a very healthy world view! If only more people did. Congrats.
LeftishBrit
(41,209 posts)For the rest - I don't think it's the case that people have no choices; but there are many situations where no good choice is practically possible. While many diseases are influenced by lifestyle factors, some of these lifestyle factors are not a personal choice (e.g. it is increasingly evident that prenatal environment can affect later health), or are only so if one has the money and resources to choose where to live, for example.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)Everything that has happened and will happen was determined before/during the ineptly named "Big Bang".
The sheer complexity of the universe gives rise to the appearence of randomness and our inability to make sense of the patterns gives rise to the feeling of free will.
And yes, I wake screaming.
clarice
(5,504 posts)uriel1972
(4,261 posts)except the starting ingredients and the process.
clarice
(5,504 posts)uriel1972
(4,261 posts)only that what happens is an inevitable consequense of the beginning of the universe.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)uriel1972
(4,261 posts)jonno99
(2,620 posts)I'm not really sure if I'm free to write this sentence - or not...
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)the proof is that you did.
clarice
(5,504 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)not enough good stuff can be said about this great mind
clarice
(5,504 posts)He has come under attack by other scientists for his journey into binary thought.
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)he is a fool
This is what I get from the atheist group
"Anybody who uses the words 'quantum' and 'consciousness' in the same sentence is living in sin." Although not very many theoreticians today would make that mistake, there are the few that do. Cough! Roger Penrose! These sinners are most assuredly wrong.
clarice
(5,504 posts)the level of antagonism that this subject stirs up among a certain group of people.
It's not just that they disagree...they VEHEMENTLY disagree. I can only come up with a few
reasons why they do.
1. For religious reasons
2. For personal reasons "I like being miserable..and I don't want to know about anything that can change
my situation"
3. For political reasons "Only right wingers believe that you can personally change your environment"
SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)yes - very strange - even more so when they are dealing with the things that very few have even a small and admittedly tenuous grasp of
funny world
clarice
(5,504 posts)SoLeftIAmRight
(4,883 posts)Be Well
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)As my dusk approaches, I bless thee, Life,
for you never gave me failed hope,
or unjust work, or undeserved punishment;
for I see at the end of my rugged journey
that I was the architect of my destiny;
if I drew the sweetness or aloes from things,
it was because I put into them bitter bile, or sweet honey:
when I planted rose bushes, I always harvested roses.
True, to my youth Winter will come:
But you never promised me that May would be eternal!
No doubt I found my nights of sorrow to be long;
but you never promised me only good nights;
and yet I had some that were blessedly serene...
I loved, and I was loved, the sun stroked my face.
Life, you owe me nothing! Life, we are at peace!
- Amado Nervo
Hestia
(3,818 posts)
lark
(23,147 posts)You don't control where you start, but from that point what you do with it is under your control, for most of us. People with mental issues I think are the largest exception. Even people with physical disabilities can decide how to respond to the circumstances of their birth. People with mental disabilities often don't recognize reality so can have severe issues coping successfully with life.
clarice
(5,504 posts)
liberal N proud
(60,340 posts)I sure wouldn't live where I live.
I would sure as hell not worry about my next paycheck.
And I would be a lot more philanthropic.
Then there are all the materialistic things I would have.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)
clarice
(5,504 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)If, and only if chance and probability do not exist.
clarice
(5,504 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)
abakan
(1,819 posts)I believe in a large part we influence our destiny, but I also believe, forces out of our control can have as much influence,
clarice
(5,504 posts)Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)The longer I live, the more I realize that I will never have mastery over anything.
But acceptance is peace. Mostly.
easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)False
clarice
(5,504 posts)easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)I think many things are out of our control.
easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)Then my son hung himself and my family's lives turned to shit.
Answer enough for you?
clarice
(5,504 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)
mackerel
(4,412 posts)Triana
(22,666 posts)So much of one's 'destiny' is put in place before they're even born...one has no control over that - or a great deal of other things that happen even after.
xenoturkey
(68 posts)
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)You stay out of trouble, you get a good education, you get a good job and you do a good job, you make a sufficient salary, you have good relationships with family and friends. You get up every day thinking that you have mastered this thing called Life. Then, you step out your front door and get run over by a drunk driver and spend the rest of your life in a coma. So, really, who had the greater mastery of your life? You or the drunk driver?
I think it's all random -- one can have a degree of control right up until someone with greater control changes things. And saying what you do with the rest of your life is what matters is baloney. The fact is, that given an encounter with someone/thing with greater power, your choices are gone. You have to live with the results of someone else's choices.
And, kids, if the Republicans get more votes than the Dems, we will all have a chance to prove or disprove this theory.
bullsnarfle
(254 posts)"The fact is, that given an encounter with someone/thing with greater power, your choices are gone. You have to live with the results of someone else's choices."
As someone who's life was virtually destroyed by powerful circumstances beyond my control, I know damn well just how little actual control we have over our lives when the shit hits the fan.
randr
(12,414 posts)Every decision leads us down a new or different path.
I was once told that there are no "wrong" choices. You either choose what works out for you or you learn from you poor decision.
Either way you win.
Have you ever thought that you may have missed a head on collision or some such disaster because you had to back in the house to retrieve something you forgot? The serendipitous nature of this random creation we call life is a beautiful thing to behold. When we take a look outside of ourselves we can see the marvel of all that surrounds us. A choice to look inside of ourselves may reveal the beautiful pattern of life unfolding in our own lives.
clarice
(5,504 posts)ms liberty
(8,593 posts)I went to the mall one day, back in the 80's. A few days later a young woman similar in description (age, hair, etc.) to me was found dead, and that mall was the last place she had been. It turned out that she had been taken from the parking lot, the same side I was parked at of that mall, at about the same time I was there in that parking lot. Now we can consider my not being kidnapped and murdered random chance or good luck, but when you add in that I was raised by an assertive mother in a large city and was taught to be aware of my surroundings, move in public with a sense of purpose and self confidence, and foremost to look out for my own safety - was it really random, or was it that my learned behavior influenced a murderer to decide against me as their victim? I don't know if he even saw me that day, but when he was caught he did say that he had been cruising the parking lot specifically to find a victim. If he did see me, then he made a choice to not try to take me, but my behavior was predetermined by my mother's decision to raise a strong independent daughter. I did not know until after the event so I was not making a choice to actively protect myself, or even thinking about protecting myself, I was just being myself, just going to/from the mall.
I don't believe everything is totally random, but I don't believe everything is predetermined, either. We are products of family dynamics and upbringing, environment, genetics, intelligence and education. Some is chance and some of it is determined by other factors - and every person has their own mix of each. I've had more than one of those obvious near miss type events in my life, so I have thought about it from that viewpoint, lol! I am not even sure I stayed on the point of the OP very well but your reply reminded me of this event. It was the one that led me to explore my own belief system because I realized just how near a miss I had.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts). . . are actually predetermined at a subconscious level. But our brains allow us to live with the happy illusion that we have consciously made those decisions.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)OxQQme
(2,550 posts)When I first arrive in the material world each morning, at the time I arise from the 'sleep state' and open my eyes,
I choose to smile rather than frown.
Is that being 'Master' ?
There's also the difference between fate and destiny
--> http://www.differencebetween.net/miscellaneous/difference-between-fate-and-destiny/
clarice
(5,504 posts)
valerief
(53,235 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)Live with a wife and a daughter, so I am
way outnumbered.
Gore1FL
(21,151 posts)I am at the mercy of the sea we call life.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Please KILL ME now...
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Which probably means the answer is no. Or yes, I guess.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)Born into poverty. Stricken by disease. Killed in war. Violated as a child. Born with a low IQ.
Born deformed. Born lame. And on and on and on....
We are masters of nothing, let alone our own "destinies".
easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Back that down to "President" or something and I might agree.
elias49
(4,259 posts)And that alone can be hard to handle.
Master? no.
sakabatou
(42,170 posts)If I was, certain things wouldn't have happened.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,034 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,034 posts)3: Conservatives are famous for saying "We don't do nuance."
clarice
(5,504 posts)Is that your fall back card whenever you run out of rational thoughts?
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Just saying... 
clarice
(5,504 posts)mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)We, as a species, do not ordinarily do the kinds of things that could make us "Master of our own destiny". Dealing with other people compromises this romanticized, semi-Randian view. Imagine if Howard Roark (sorry Randites if I misspelled that) had thought more of the needs of the people those housing units were built for than for his own "vision" of how an apartment tower should reflect his almost sociopathic personality.
I, as a man, had a view of my destiny and how I would master it. Then I fell in love with a wonderful woman so things changed. Then we were given two wonderful kids. More change. Then and then and then...
So no, I can't buy into that line, as attractive as it may seem in the Terminator movies. A hermit in a cave in some high, inaccessible peak might be "master, etc., etc." but then how would he keep up with Game of Thrones?
Anyway, it isn't the destination. It is the journey...
Chef Eric
(1,024 posts)We do what we can with the brains and bodies that we have. However, some of us have bodies that break down very early in life.
Of course, poor health is not the only thing that prevents many of us from being the masters of our own destinies. Here in the United States, there are people who are gunned down by lunatics with semi-automatic weapons (or by police who don't know how to do their jobs).
And in "third-world" countries, there are people who are born into such abject poverty that they must figure out a way to survive without dying of malnourishment. Others are oppressed, subjugated by warlords, or forced into slavery.
We are not masters of anything. We do what we can. We work hard and we hope.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)The premise does not allow for the mass victimization that goes on.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's part of their megalomaniac faith. The notion that the sheer power of their will is enough to make things happen.
It's also why they HATE the poor who they consider to be at fault for their own situation. They feel the poor should wake up like they have and make something of their lives. It's all about choices.
Trying to talk to one of these types can be very frustrating, especially one that had everything handed to them all of their lives and believe they worked hard for it and nobody handed them anything. Some take it a step further and believe the weak should perish.
This is nothing new either. The Nazis believed in the philosophy which is why the famous propaganda film was called "The Triumph of the Will".
clarice
(5,504 posts)Just thinking that perhaps that our choices and attitudes DO make a difference in our lives.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)There are also cases where someone manages to bullshit their way into a nice job.
Holly Landry
(3 posts)Because in real life ,many things don't come true .sometimes my mood is happy last second. but it will turn into sorrow next second. so I think I can't control my destiny.
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)Mortal:
And therefore, O God, I pray thee, if thou hast one ounce of mercy for this thy suffering creature, absolve me of having to have free will!
God:
You reject the greatest gift I have given thee?
Mortal:
How can you call that which was forced on me a gift? I have free will, but not of my own choice. I have never freely chosen to have free will. I have to have free will, whether I like it or not!
God:
Why would you wish not to have free will?
Mortal:
Because free will means moral responsibility, and moral responsibility is more than I can bear!
God:
Why do you find moral responsibility so unbearable?
Mortal:
Why? I honestly can't analyze why; all I know is that I do.
God:
All right, in that case suppose I absolve you from all moral responsibility but leave you still with free will. Will this be satisfactory?
Mortal (after a pause):
No, I am afraid not.
God:
Ah, just as I thought! So moral responsibility is not the only aspect of free will to which you object. What else about free will is bothering you?
http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
clarice
(5,504 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)a person's outlook and attitude can go a long way.
jomin41
(559 posts)Orrex
(63,220 posts)Anyone else? Um?
As to the question, I would say that the answer is a resounding no. Almost everything that a person encounters is almost entirely outside of their control, and such control as we have is, more often than not, simply an illusion .
clarice
(5,504 posts)Orrex
(63,220 posts)Except in a sort of wyrd sense along the lines of "whatever winds up happening."
clarice
(5,504 posts)Javaman
(62,533 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Javaman
(62,533 posts)my destiny is determined by need of it.
I work at my job solely for it.
Imagine a society were people didn't have to work a job they hate just to have health insurance.
that's what my very vague comment was referring to. 
clarice
(5,504 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...then false by definition, as the outcome has been destined. You cannot be the master of it, it's already set.
If there is no such thing as destiny... then also false. Obviously.
So, false. (I lean towards it being for the second reason)
clarice
(5,504 posts)No I do not believe that our future is predestined. As far as the word "destiny" goes, perhaps a better word is
outcome.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)You have influence over, but NOT mastery over, the outcomes of your life. Only total control of all the variables involved could provide mastery over your life's outcomes and nobody is all powerful and all knowing, which are pre-requisites to accomplishing that.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Rider3
(919 posts)You can try and try, but things can blow back at you for no reason at all. If you have money and connections, your destiny will pretty much find you, and you'll be OK. If you do not have money and connections, then it's a matter of hard work and a lot of luck.
clarice
(5,504 posts)and yes...hard work goes a looooong way. Luck? I'm not sure about the distinction between
"luck" and " taking advantage of opportunities"
LeftishBrit
(41,209 posts)If lucky, one can control some aspects of one's destiny; but if people were in general 'the masters of their destiny', there would not be so many people suffering horrible fates.
happy wendy
(67 posts)I would like to express my opinion, I think this viewpoint is not true, because we are not the master of our own destiny, From our experience, we can see it. For example: people all want to be born in a wealthy family, but people have no choice about this；Most people wish they could work less and earn more, but how many people can come true the dream? About marriage, people would like to find a partner according to one's own standard, but are denied that wish; Also when people face the death, no one wants to leave the world, but who can control it? So people can't rule over one's destiny, I believe all things were determined long in advance by the Creator.
clarice
(5,504 posts)happy wendy
(67 posts)I'm glad to talk to you and share my opinion with you, wish we can discuss further.
Trailrider1951
(3,414 posts)What's that saying? "If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans."
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)...but a tip of the hat for starting it.
It is no surprise that a materialist society weakens human intent. Why look inside for an answer that you can purchase 'off the shelf'? It is almost unbelievable that people can feel so power-less until you acknowledge the deeply entrenched ideology of free market capitalism.
It is all about making you dependant on the industrial society. For everything....
All this crying about "bad breaks" just re-inforces the dependence. They (somebody other than you) define what's 'bad' and provide a low cost solution that people pay whether it works or not.
ScienceINC. refuses to consider that we all are "masters of our own destiny". But....the truth is out there.
.
clarice
(5,504 posts)many people have become far to dependent on Government along with a materialistic culture.
happy wendy
(67 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 14, 2016, 10:47 AM - Edit history (1)
I was interested in the thing as a child , and you? How do you think about one's destiny?
clarice
(5,504 posts)I started researching this topic because I was interested in people who had come from sad
personal backgrounds and overcame their limitations to become great contributors to society.
What makes them different and how they applied their skills to make that leap. As far as "destiny"
goes, the more I read the less I am convinced that our lives are predetermined or that we are
stuck with the hand that we are dealt.
