Environment & Energy
Related: About this forumPedestrians and cyclists don't emit greenhouse gases, it needs to be safer to be one in our cities
Cross posted in GD: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022374500
some key ideas to reduce the risks to both, as well as give both the opportunity to protect themselves from injury:
1) If pedestrians have a green in a crosswalk, drivers crossing that crosswalk should NOT have a green light. This is especially important for left and right turns which cross the crosswalk behind a pedestrian walking the same direction (who cannot see the traffic approaching or coming at them). Cars already don't have the right of way in such instance, but with a green light at the intersection, drivers aren't slowing as they approach the intersection --neglecting to consider pedestrians.
2) Ideally, intersections and crosswalks should be signaled so that pedestrians and cars are not signaled to be in the same crosswalks simultaneously. There are different ways to do this, and it is possible.
This situation needs to be avoided, the pedestrian can't see what's behind them and with a green signal, the drivers often don't slow down in advance of the crosswalk.
Going further, traffic signals need to separate pedestrians and crossing cars. Pedestrians need dedicated time for non motorized crossing, period. Cars need dedicated signals that doesn't allow them or encourage them to sneak their cars between pedestrians in the crosswalk --signals and traffic laws should prevent them from even encroaching on the crosswalk when pedestrians have a walk or green signal.
And bikes need better separation from cars as well, and safer bike lane configurations. This photo from Copenhagen shows how bikes can be physically separated from cars so that the bike lane is physically safer than when it is adjacent to the traffic lane.
montanto
(2,966 posts)I live in LA, where riding a bike on the street is virtually a death sentence in some places, but where the weather is rarely so bad that I couldn't or wouldn't ride because of it. I only live 2.5 miles from work but the streets I would ride on are far too dangerous. We need safer bike lanes, more awareness of cyclists, and walking paths.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and San Francisco too.
there are engineering changes that would make things safer. many of them are opposed by Caltrans, which, even though they are a department of transportation, does not take seriously their role in protecting pedestrian safety.
Millbrae crosswalk claiming more victims
A perilous stretch of El Camino Real in Millbrae where the state was found liable in 2010 for endangering pedestrians continues to claim victims as people try to cross the busy six-lane thoroughfare.
Caltrans was ordered to pay $8 million to the family of Emily Liou, who was 17 when she was struck by a Toyota in 2006 while crossing El Camino in a crosswalk. Six years later, she remains in a coma.
The jury found that Caltrans had known for years that the crosswalks without traffic signals were dangerous, but had taken no action to prevent the accident. The agency has jurisdiction over El Camino because the street is a state highway.
hunter
(38,317 posts)I can dream, can't I?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)i would definitely like to see a full transportation system so that people can get around and that includes a system that encourages walking, but doesn't require long distance walking which a substantial part of the population cannot do because of disabilities or because they are children or because transporting goods long distances on foot is difficult for large numbers of people.
yes, i'd like a less car oriented society, but if cars went away tomorrow, in cities without proper public transit, or inaccessible public transit, it would be a severe problem.
but it's not a dream if it's that complex is it?
hunter
(38,317 posts)... and abundant public transportation with wide welcoming doors and no steps.
CRH
(1,553 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)sorry.
CRH
(1,553 posts)by their numbers and activities!
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)If you signal pedestrians separately from cars, you're doubling the cars' wait time and doubling their emissions while idling.
It would be safer, but I don't think that's the best solution.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)You make safety sound like some dubious sacrifice.
Whatever.
What you posted is nonsense but not sure we have enough common ground to make a discussion worthwhile.
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)You don't wear a helmet while you're driving, do you? It would be safer.
If common ground means telling you what a great idea you have, I guess we don't have any. Because it's simply not that great an idea.
Now you can tell me why waiting 100% more time at a light wouldn't result in 100% more idling emissions. Or not.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)giving you a red light isn't slowing you down if when you get a green light, there are people in the crosswalk that you have to wait for.
get a clue.
this can be done and is being done all over the place and it often makes traffic flow better.
for example, at 4th and Folsom streets in San Francisco there are three cycles of the lights. 2 of them only cars move.
1 of them is for pedestrians to cross, diagonally if they want as it's an all-red cycle.
so instead of 2 cycles where cars and people intersect and the cars have to wait and sometimes people get hit by cars not being careful on a green light.
you get 2 cycles of green with no pedestrian crossing, slightly shorter, but more efficient cycles.
then the people cross, often only once because of the diagonal thing.
did you know that? of course you didn't. your post indicates that you have no idea what you're talking about.
and not only that --more people drive when pedestrians and cyclists are hit or have near misses and more people driving means more traffic on the streets.
time to update your traffic engineering knowledge beyond the 1980's. we know more now.
wtmusic
(39,166 posts)Your original photo showed regular parallel crosswalks. In that case, any driver going straight is going to be twiddling her thumbs, wondering why you're wasting her time and gas. But also not a good idea to conflate pedestrians and cyclists, who are required to follow motor vehicle rules of the road (with some exceptions)
I know a little bit about how traffic works, I ride my bike in L.A. about 4000 miles/year. I've been wrong before and I actually like being corrected, however snark and ad hominems are unnecessary. I'm assuming when you post you're open to criticism, if not DU ain't for you.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)i reacted to your arrogance at dismissing the safety of pedestrians, which your city, Los Angeles (a city I think is wonderful, but...) has a woefully poor record of pedestrian fatalities.
and now, you're criticizing me for not posting the photo of the diagonal intersection, when what I posted above was a photo in which I described a situation that needed to be fixed (the one with the car overtaking the pedestrian).
the more arrogantly you come into a thread saying wrong things, the more strongly i will react.
for all your confidence, you better have been right and you didn't know what you were talking about --and in the process were dismissive of pedestrian safety, and still are, as making drivers "twiddle their thumbs".
if you don't want to be criticized? be right. if you aren't sure you're right, be questioning rather than assured in your criticism --which you weren't.
Dude, you have issues. Best of luck dealing with them, and finding someone who's willing to put up with that shoulder chip in the meantime.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)as causing drivers to "twiddle their thumbs" or "waste their time".
i know so many cyclists who bike all over the place, including to work in this city, and i don't know a single one of them who would say what you have said saying that pedestrian safety would waste drivers time.
that's not a chip on my shoulder.
(on edit: i have to say, to give you credit, at least, that you post good things environmentally speaking, so i was surprised that you seemed to be so cavalier on a safety issue, and one that has such relevance to climate change)