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OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:05 AM Mar 2012

A Basic – and Slightly Acidic – Solution for Hydrogen Storage

http://science.energy.gov/news/in-focus/2012/03-19-12/
[font face=Times,Times New Roman,Serif]03.19.12

[font size=5]A Basic – and Slightly Acidic – Solution for Hydrogen Storage[/font]

[font size=4]Brookhaven Lab creates a new catalyst with real possibilities in clean energy.[/font]

[font size=3]Sometimes, solutions for hard problems can turn out to be pretty basic. That's especially true for a team of researchers at the Office of Science's Brookhaven National Laboratory (Brookhaven Lab), where the solution for a hard problem they were working on turned out to be pretty basic…and also a bit acidic.

The hard problem they were working on was how to store hydrogen fuel. Hydrogen gas (H2) is a clean and powerful fuel, but it's also extremely light, which makes it difficult and costly to store. It's typically held in high pressure tanks, although researchers at another Office of Science lab recently found a possible way to keep it in naturally-formed frozen cages.

In a paper published yesterday (Sunday, March 18th) in Nature Chemistry, researchers at Brookhaven Lab led by chemist Etsuko Fujita announced that they had found a safe and reversible way to store hydrogen under mild (and therefore hopefully much more economical) conditions, using a newly developed catalyst.



The catalyst created by researchers at Brookhaven Lab connects hydrogen gas and carbon dioxide, "storing" the hydrogen linked to (adduct to) carbon dioxide in a mildly basic solution. The reaction can be reversed – and the hydrogen fuel released – by adding a bit of acid. The entire process can be run, and easily reversed, in a watery solution under mild temperatures and pressures with no toxic byproducts, and at a faster rate than any previous catalyst.

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http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nchem.1295.html
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A Basic – and Slightly Acidic – Solution for Hydrogen Storage (Original Post) OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 OP
I wonder if its ultimate energy density will be competitive with petrol. NYC_SKP Mar 2012 #1
I disagree lacrew Mar 2012 #2
A silly meme OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #3
Meme huh? lacrew Mar 2012 #4
And ethanol? OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #6
Yes lacrew Mar 2012 #7
If ethanol is a fuel, hydrogen is a fuel OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #8
I'm at a loss to find where I said it wasn't a fuel lacrew Mar 2012 #10
You must be thinking of a different DOE OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #11
You completely missed the point lacrew Mar 2012 #12
I apparently misinterpreted you OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #13
Robojelly 2.0: Robotic jellyfish now powered by hydrogen OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #9
Keywords: formate, formic acid eppur_se_muova Mar 2012 #5
A car than runs on acid? RobertEarl Mar 2012 #14
 

NYC_SKP

(68,644 posts)
1. I wonder if its ultimate energy density will be competitive with petrol.
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 10:21 AM
Mar 2012

I'm all excited about the various energy storage and transport solutions on the horizon...

 

lacrew

(283 posts)
2. I disagree
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 12:07 PM
Mar 2012

"Hydrogen gas (H2) is a clean and powerful fuel"

Wrong.

Don't believe me?

Ponder - where does hydrogen come from? Hint: It is produced by taking apart chemical bonds, either through electrolysis or chemical means.

There is a reason the fad of just a few years ago (hydrogen fuel cells!!!) is hardly mentioned today. Storage is not the issue at all.

 

lacrew

(283 posts)
4. Meme huh?
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 08:01 PM
Mar 2012

And methanol?

You do understand that just about damn near everything could technically be used as a fuel....since just about damn near anything has carbon in it.

But last I checked, methanol wasn't a widely used fuel....because obviously there are some better alternatives.

Just because it burns, it doesn't make it a useful fuel.

BTW, I have actually made an attempt to 'dose' my car's intake with hydrogen, with a home-made on-board electrolysis device vented into the intake...it screwed up the O2 sensor input to the PCM, and actually kept the injectors open longer, pulsing more fuel, and giving me worse mileage. So, I failed at that...but I mention it to point out that I am indeed curious about alternative fuels...but when one proves to be non-workable, its best to let it go.

And you know what? Most people have let it go. The hysteria, grant money, and media stories about hydrogen have all but dried up.

I'll tell you another story. I am experimenting with propane right now. I live in the mid-west, where its currently cheap...and the pressures involved don't scare me. I think I'm going to get it to work fairly flawlessly...its great. But, I know its not the fuel of the future. It never can be, because it is the byproduct of refining other things, like natural gas. I.e., if there were large scale propane demand as a vehicle fuel, excess natural gas would have to be produced...which leads to the question - why not just use natural gas as a fuel? BTW, the same goes for methane and hydrogen....just products of a reaction involving a true 'fuel', like coal or natural gas.

I do believe natural gas will quietly become our fuel of the future. There are self service stations in my community right now, conversion kits are available, large-scale conversions have been used in Europe for over a decade now, and its currently cheap relative to gasoline, when energy output is compared. I anticipate the smaller vehicles will concentrate on small engines, and re-capture of electric energy, like the Prius...but bigger vehicles will rely more and more on natural gas.

I've just realized I've written quite a long response to a snarky comment...which has become a pattern here. For some reason I just have to set people straight. There are alot of armchair experts, who just know everything. All the while, I am a real life tinkerer, experimenter, licensed engineer, with a strong background in physics, and a reluctant background in chemistry, LEED accredited....and a part time auto mechanic to boot.

But I'm just silly around here

 

lacrew

(283 posts)
7. Yes
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 02:34 PM
Mar 2012

But not a viable fuel.

I live in the mid-west...I have even done zoning work and procured water rights for an ethanol plant.

Then they never built it.

Why?

Gas prices dropped.

Ethanol is only competitive when gas prices are very high. And, as I discovered, the water requirements are prohibitive.

And, since ethanol uses a local product (Corn), and is usually sold locally, since it cannot easily be transmitted using a pipeline (seperation issues), the local Chamber of Commerce decided against issuing them an incentive package - no net gain to the community. Sugar cane? Prairie grasses? Maybe, the local university is trying to perfect a grass hardy enough to resist pests...yet be much easier to 'break down' than our current genetic modifications allow. Sugar - not going to happen in my part of the country.

Now, because of where I live, I put 5% ethanol into my tank, every time I fill up...and I actually had a fuel line rust from the inside out. Yet another limitation of ethanol.

I never understood why ethanol was championed as our fuel of tommorrow (well I sort of do, with Iowa's undue influence in national elections).

Biodiesel is a much better alternative. Biodiesel is, well, diesel...and its stored, pumped, transmitted, etc. pretty much just like regular diesel. If it weren't for the corn lobby, we would have certainly gone that direction, instead of ethanol. My old high school uses old fry oil to make biodiesel for the buses. I've seen the setup (one of my father's additional duties at the school is to maintain it)....and I can see how it could be easily scaled up (I've designed preliminary treatment facilities for some food processors; and, there is alot of waste cooking oil to be had). Individual processors could fuel their own fleets with it...won't go much further than that, though. Algae? Not on a large scale (hint: algae does need nutrients to grow).

I'm not sure what the 'gotcha' is going to be; but, yes ethanol is a fuel....but not a good one. I've been on the periphery of it, and actually been on the front line, with residents complaining about possible smells, feed cost pressures, and water depletion...all the while, coming to a greater understanding of how unworkable it is, as a large scale fuel, and slowly agreeing with them.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
8. If ethanol is a fuel, hydrogen is a fuel
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 03:56 PM
Mar 2012

Hydrogen is also a “powerful fuel.”


The repeated claim that Hydrogen is not a fuel is quite simply nonsense.

That’s why I referred to it as “a silly meme.”


We can debate as to whether or not it makes sense to store energy as hydrogen, but it is undeniably a fuel.

 

lacrew

(283 posts)
10. I'm at a loss to find where I said it wasn't a fuel
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 05:49 PM
Mar 2012

I never said that.

I disputed the claim it was a 'clean and powerful fuel'...and even described why it wasn't clean.

If you interpret that as a 'repeated claim that Hydrogen is not a fuel', well, you're reading a little bit into it, aren't you? Stuffing my mouth with words I never said. Now that's just plain silly, isn't it.

I never explained why its not powerful...but since you brought it up, we can go on a knowledge quest today:

You have probably been fooled, by looking at btu per pound...which is something like 61k vs 21k. Makes sense if you're reading Popular Mechanics. But not in the real world (or in the DOE's world).

Lets look at a 14 gallon gas tank....contains 1.8 million btu of energy. How many gallons of liquid hydrogen would it take to store as much energy? 50. That's right class. Five-o gallons of hydrogen, to match the energy output of 14 gallons of gas. Its worse with compressed hydrogen (276 gallons).

Leaving the realm of the theoretical, a little Googling discovered the BMW H7. It carries 45 gallons of liquid hydrogen, and has a hydrogen range of...125 miles. They could remedy this, by placing an extra tank on a roof rack.

You see - its energy density by volume downright sucks...not powerful at all.

This volumetric method of looking at fuel types, btw, is of interest in natural gas vehicles. Its 50% better than liquid hydrogen, and 600% better than gas hydrogen, at a comparable 3,000 psi. Can you see how, when I look at fuels, hydrogen doesn't top my list of 'powerful'? Diesel, gasoline, ethanol, cng, lng...all more 'powerful' than hydrogen. In fact, I am hard pressed to find a fuel less powerful.



 

lacrew

(283 posts)
12. You completely missed the point
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 06:02 PM
Mar 2012

DOE literature, comparing various fuels, typically uses a volumetric method.

Not a 'by weight' method.

Yes, I am aware that the DOE is funding hydrogen projects (to include a boondoggle in my own state to make a hydrogen locomotive). Geeze. Thanks for the update.

BTW - anxiously waiting for you to either show where I said hydrogen wasn't a fuel...or apologize for name calling.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
13. I apparently misinterpreted you
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 06:26 PM
Mar 2012
"Hydrogen gas (H2) is a clean and powerful fuel"

Wrong.

Don't believe me?

Ponder - where does hydrogen come from? Hint: It is produced by taking apart chemical bonds, either through electrolysis or chemical means.

There is a reason the fad of just a few years ago (hydrogen fuel cells!!!) is hardly mentioned today. Storage is not the issue at all.



Your post seemed to be implying that since hydrogen “is produced by taking apart chemical bonds,” it is somehow:
  • Not clean (hydrogen is clean, so I assumed this was not what you meant)
  • Not powerful (hydrogen is powerful, so I assumed that this was not what you meant either) [br]or
  • Not a fuel


The latter claim has been made so many times on this group, that I foolishly assumed that was what you meant.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
9. Robojelly 2.0: Robotic jellyfish now powered by hydrogen
Wed Mar 21, 2012, 04:06 PM
Mar 2012
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-robojelly-robotic-jellyfish-hydrogen-20120321,0,1188437.story
[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Robojelly 2.0: Robotic jellyfish now powered by hydrogen[/font]

By Deborah Netburn
March 21, 2012, 12:40 p.m.

[font size=3]…

Robojelly is about the size of the palm of your hand and has the ability to change its size and shape as a result of external stimuli, just like its animal counterpart.

Engineers used a shape memory alloy (SMA) and silicon to create the robojelly's body, which one researcher described as feeling a bit like an artificial breast implant.

The robojelly concept has been floating around since 2009, thanks to a grant from the U.S. Navy, but in a paper published this week in the journal Smart Materials and Structure, scientists say they have made a robotic jellyfish that uses hydrogen to power the opening and closing of the robojelly's bell -- the action allows the jellyfish to move through water.



Someday, robojelly may be able to collect hydrogen from its watery environment to use as a source of fuel, but for now, study lead author Yonas Tadesse said he can imagine robojellies heading out to sea with a little tank of hydrogen attached to their bodies -- like a little scuba tank.



[/font][/font]

eppur_se_muova

(36,299 posts)
5. Keywords: formate, formic acid
Tue Mar 20, 2012, 09:04 PM
Mar 2012

Formic acid is H-(C=O)-O-H. CO2 is O=C=O. So addition of H2 across one of the C=O double bonds gives you formic acid:

O=C=O + H-H <-----> H-(C=O)-O-H

I used to wonder if that was possible (the trick turns out to be an Iridium-based catalyst) but I am skeptical about getting much energy density out of this.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
14. A car than runs on acid?
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 12:47 AM
Mar 2012

Last edited Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:41 AM - Edit history (1)

That might garner some unique attention.

While hydrogen may not be a powerful fuel, its wide availability does give it a great advantage. The trick is breaking it out of its bonds cheaply and quickly.

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