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CO2 goes up, ice goes down (Original Post) GliderGuider Apr 2016 OP
I wonder if those who this will most effect - i.e. people who will be alive over the next 50 years, jtuck004 Apr 2016 #1
I dont know.... Locrian Apr 2016 #2
"The momentum now is so large..." It's not as bad as it is going to get, so we should just start jtuck004 Apr 2016 #4
If you don't see much except hand-wringing GliderGuider Apr 2016 #6
I guess, if what you see brings you some comfort, but most of it is incompetent, jtuck004 Apr 2016 #8
yep Locrian Apr 2016 #9
We did start back in the 70's pscot Apr 2016 #19
People most affected 50 years from now are grandchildren of the skeptics (all grandchildren, really) Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #11
Actually, if they are 20 today, they will be around 70, far less able to handle the extremes jtuck004 Apr 2016 #20
Your points ok, but grandchildren born & not yet born will be affected badly by inaction today Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #23
If they are born. It may not be as simple as today. n/t jtuck004 Apr 2016 #24
As may be. Paraphrasing myself: Climate change deniers indulge in a lot of ostrich mentality. . .nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #25
And they don't control anything except that which people let them control. So, unimportant. n/t jtuck004 Apr 2016 #26
I'd call the effects of Kochs, McConnell, Ryan & many Republicans devastating and important. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #27
Call it what you want, but they are only 1%. 320 million people could get up off their asses and jtuck004 Apr 2016 #28
320 million (6 billion) could get up, but in the meantime Koch et al have important effect. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #29
Only to people who lay down for them. n/t jtuck004 Apr 2016 #30
If you are the only person not laying down, they still affect you. . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #31
If your neighbors won't stand up it doesn't mean you are laying down. I just don't use the richies jtuck004 Apr 2016 #32
You are arguing at cross-purposes because you haven't read what I wrote Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #33
"You are arguing at cross-purposes because you haven't read what I wrote" < Only half-right, because jtuck004 Apr 2016 #36
you can't explain that redruddyred Apr 2016 #3
tide goes in, tide goes out.... (nt) Locrian Apr 2016 #7
Correlational! Helen Borg Apr 2016 #5
Bogus comparison. Time scales don't match. Time periods don't match. Ice goes down in Spring. Duh. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #10
All I can do is present ideas I think are interesting or informative. GliderGuider Apr 2016 #12
There are plenty ideas interesting & informative without being bogus. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #15
Maybe this will make you smile again. GliderGuider Apr 2016 #16
No smile :( but that is an excellent perspective. Thanks for posting. . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #17
Or this: GliderGuider Apr 2016 #18
CO2 goes down in Northern Hemisphere spring, not up petronius Apr 2016 #21
Oops, you are correct! Thanks for correcting me. Good catch. . nt Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2016 #22
Like Bernie says, nothing will happen policy wise until we get the money out of politics. Dustlawyer Apr 2016 #13
Do you really think that will let us fix it? GliderGuider Apr 2016 #14
No I don't. I think we cannot even start to realistically address the issue until we have PFEs. Dustlawyer Apr 2016 #34
I appreciate your commitment. It's the most worthwhile cause there is. GliderGuider Apr 2016 #35
 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
1. I wonder if those who this will most effect - i.e. people who will be alive over the next 50 years,
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 06:46 AM
Apr 2016

will look back and wonder if they had hit the streets, if they could have stopped the tragedy they are living through?

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
2. I dont know....
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 07:16 AM
Apr 2016

They / we would have had to start back in the 70's at least. The momentum now is so large that it seems hopeless.

There will likely be two options:

We come together as never before, and work with each other on the consequences. Possibly opening a new chapter in humanity as we all recognize what's important and what's not

Or we continue down the same path of vampire capitalism and war, as we try to survive and compete against everyone else as the "enemy"

I don't like the odds.....

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
4. "The momentum now is so large..." It's not as bad as it is going to get, so we should just start
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 07:29 AM
Apr 2016

where we are. But so far I don't see much except the wringing of hands.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
6. If you don't see much except hand-wringing
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 07:46 AM
Apr 2016

a) you're not looking hard enough. Lots of people are acting, both as individuals and in groups. It's just that the groups aren't large enough to accomplish much, mainly because most jobs depend on fossil fuels to some degree, and most people need jobs.

b) you haven't looked through the comment threads on The Guardian's environmental articles. There you will see the denialists on parade, all dancing to the tune of "It's all right Jack!"

The problem is one of sheer, stupefying scale. The 7.4 billion people on the planet today are doing the same amount of ecological damage that would be done by over 140 billion naked apes, due to our unbelievable energy use.

We got into this fix by using fossil fuels, and we can't get out of it just by not using them any more, unless we are prepared to allow most of those 7.4 billion to die. We are left with nibbling around the edges of the problem, and telling ourselves comforting stories about how that is "making a difference."

What you see as hand-wringing, I see as fully awakened, unvarnished comprehension.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
8. I guess, if what you see brings you some comfort, but most of it is incompetent,
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 07:57 AM
Apr 2016

people who complain about the climate while driving to starbucks to get coffee.

I call it hand-wringing when you have a bunch of concern by too few people to do anything, most of whom are too busy keeping the status-quo burning to actually do anything about the problem.

"we can't get out of it just by not using them any more, " < That is the only way we are going to get out of it. But what people want is to have it fixed without inconveniencing them at all. They want to sit on their asses and watch cable while everyone else pays the price. I think people are going to get precisely what they have engineered.

Fact is, we may have already birthed more people than the planet can handle, and since we are too weak to fix the problem, the earth may just fix it for us.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
9. yep
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 07:59 AM
Apr 2016

We can't "buy" or "fight" our way out of this.

It's going to affect EVERY part of people's lives. There will be nothing to cling to as "tradition" as change forces us to radically rethink how we live, work, play, etc.

I too see people waking up - seeing the denial, rage, fear, etc. There will be some who get stuck in each phase.... and possibly some that can make some sense or action out of it. But it's a very "non-linear" chaotic thing and it's not clear what part humanity will play in terms of what "civilization" will look like in 10 25 or 50 years.

Change isn't going to be enough to buy a Tesla 3, fair trade coffee, and put up solar panels. It's going to take changing our energy usage by maybe 1/20 of what we use (EVERYONE not just environmentalists) - AND dealing with weather change effects (rising sea levels, extreme weather) and their associated devastation of the "economic system". Either way, the momentum is still going to hit us hard even if we STOPPED right now - so it's likely people will see any measures as "why bother"?

It's *possible* some miracle will happen and we discover clean/cold fusion or something - but I doubt it.

I still have hope and support all efforts - I just think it's going to eventually come down to either chaos with people scratching out a miserable "mad max" type of living, or a new way of living - different from *anything* we have seen in the past with cooperation and sharing.

One way is a zero sum game, inefficient and wasteful. The other is more efficient and has some hope. The "cooperation" is not restricted in gains and is more efficient, but it takes higher awareness and trust.







pscot

(21,024 posts)
19. We did start back in the 70's
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 11:17 AM
Apr 2016

Carter was out ahead on this, but when Reagan came in the solar panels came down and climate change fell off the agenda. Greed ruled.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
20. Actually, if they are 20 today, they will be around 70, far less able to handle the extremes
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 11:59 AM
Apr 2016

compared to today, This would be a great day for them to begin to shut things down. MIght be hard, but not as hard as it will be when there is less land and food. Besides, every day we wait is that much worse. If there are shortages in land or water, they may wish they had fixed it by then, if their kids have to make decisions.

Btw - this infers that the sceptics are older. That's the same mistake made when they started telling me the racists were these old farts, and they would be dying off.

I first heard that 50 years ago. I'm still hearing people try to convince themselves of that one, as if it were yesterday. They begin to sound like people waiting for the end of the world, coming Wednesday.

I see just as many young climate deniers as I do others, and more are being bred all the time. If we have to wait for them to be gone, we are all dead.




Bernardo de La Paz

(49,026 posts)
23. Your points ok, but grandchildren born & not yet born will be affected badly by inaction today
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 01:55 PM
Apr 2016

So, yes, that includes 20 yo grandchildren of 70 yo skeptics.
But it also includes grandchildren yet to be born of 20 yo skeptics of today.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
28. Call it what you want, but they are only 1%. 320 million people could get up off their asses and
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 02:58 PM
Apr 2016

fix this, but they would rather watch cable.

Those fuckers are just excuses for people to accomplish nothing except whining and complaining. Beats taking responsibility for their own part.

Without the arms, eyes, and legs of those folks - with thanks to de la Boetie - they couldn't do a thing.

So, no, it's not those few at all.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
32. If your neighbors won't stand up it doesn't mean you are laying down. I just don't use the richies
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 03:12 PM
Apr 2016

as poor excuses to avoid taking responsibility like some people do.

I didn't say they don't affect me.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,026 posts)
33. You are arguing at cross-purposes because you haven't read what I wrote
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 03:29 PM
Apr 2016

Yes, I don't doubt the strength of your convictions and the unwavering nature of your effort.

When I wrote "affect you" or "have an effect", it should have been clear and obvious to almost all readers that I was talking about the effect on the climate which has an effect on you. When the Kochs (as one example) stall legislation and regulations that attempt to mitigate global warming, that is an effect that affects you. When the temperature is warmer, and climate more severe, that affects you.

But somehow I was unable to communicate this straightforward logic to you. I will re-read to see if I could have made it any clearer.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
36. "You are arguing at cross-purposes because you haven't read what I wrote" < Only half-right, because
Sat Apr 9, 2016, 12:53 AM
Apr 2016

well, you know.

I wasn't arguing. Just making a point, take it or leave it. The effect they have is like mosquitoes and malaria.Sure the bugs have an effect, but we stood up and mitigated it. The people you mention affect some outcomes, limit our choices - but only because we let them, and everyone is pretty much comfortable with it. To do that we grind up a few million people every year. It used to just be the native folks, then black people, but these days it is taking more and more to keep the machine running. So now we have to find new dividing lines to convince ourselves that others are unworthy. It's not like it's some big goddamn secret.

Btw- In the past few years, our rates of Adult Onset Diabetes have doubled, nearing 1 in 10. They estimate another 10 mill or so un-diagnosed, so about a 20 million increase in new patients, with all the costs and loss that entails. In addition, in roughly another 20 years the Baby Boomers are going to have tens of millions of new Alzheimer's patients to care for, (and hundreds of billions of dollars in NEW costs for health care, btw). In addition to that, all of our unsuccessful warring and killing that we have engaged in over the years has created whole countries of enemies, for which we will surely pay as we go forward.

There are so many challenges ahead of global warming that we may not live long enough for it to kill us, which it has surely already started doing. But one can hope.

Anyway, all these things are not predetermined, not up to the 3 sisters and their cloth. It's up to us. I tire of listening to people make excuses for their inaction. Back in the olden days a guy named Carter suggested we turn down our thermostats and wear sweaters as we got our economy under control.
The country told him to fuck off and elected the actor guy with the monkey, and we began a downhill slide that we haven't stopped. That's when I started hearing these excuses for why it was always somebody else that kept people from doing the right thing. Since Carter for cryin' out loud. Phooey.

So, yeah, the rest of what you wrote is pretty much ok. Your clarity is fine.


Here's a gift...


Bernardo de La Paz

(49,026 posts)
10. Bogus comparison. Time scales don't match. Time periods don't match. Ice goes down in Spring. Duh.
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 08:38 AM
Apr 2016

Look, I'm 100 % on board with the concept of Anthropomorphic Global Warming driving Climate Change by Greenhouse Gas Emissions.

CO2 goes up in the Spring. Photosynthesis cranks up. Plants produce CO2.

https://scripps.ucsd.edu/programs/keelingcurve/2013/05/07/why-are-seasonal-co2-fluctuations-strongest-in-northern-latitudes/

But you harden the positions of skeptics by posting bogus comparisons.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
12. All I can do is present ideas I think are interesting or informative.
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 09:02 AM
Apr 2016

It's up to the reader to either think about them or resist them.

CO2 levels are higher today than they have been in the last 50 million years. That's "up". It's not just spring.
Look at where the 2016 ice line today is relative to the +/- 2 stdev shading. That's "down". It's not just spring.

On this board I assume some degree of conceptual sophistication regarding the mechanisms and evidence for global warming.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,026 posts)
15. There are plenty ideas interesting & informative without being bogus.
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 09:28 AM
Apr 2016

CO2 levels are higher today than they have been in the last 50 million years. That's "up". It's not just spring.
Look at where the 2016 ice line today is relative to the +/- 2 stdev shading. That's "down". It's not just spring.


Yes indeed, so present charts like that, not a bogus comparison that shows two unrelated seasonal patterns that exist with and without global warming / climate change issues. Your time scale of the first chart is only a week, a spring week.

On this board I assume some degree of conceptual sophistication regarding the mechanisms and evidence for global warming.


Yes, exactly. It means that intellectual honesty in presentation is important and that we don't throw it out the window "because we are sophisticated".

petronius

(26,602 posts)
21. CO2 goes down in Northern Hemisphere spring, not up
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 12:16 PM
Apr 2016

As the hemisphere greens up and photosynthesis increases, plants consume CO2 from the atmosphere rather than producing it. Early April is a bit soon to see that signal though...

Dustlawyer

(10,496 posts)
13. Like Bernie says, nothing will happen policy wise until we get the money out of politics.
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 09:02 AM
Apr 2016

I would also add, until we break up the media and banking oligarchies!

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
14. Do you really think that will let us fix it?
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 09:05 AM
Apr 2016

I don't. The problem is far bigger, and runs far deeper than that. Not to mention that it has already happened.

A change of politics and finance will fix global warming? I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem must be a nail.

What if this problem isn't a political or financial nail?

Dustlawyer

(10,496 posts)
34. No I don't. I think we cannot even start to realistically address the issue until we have PFEs.
Fri Apr 8, 2016, 07:18 PM
Apr 2016

We have kicked the can so far down the road because of the influence that corporate money has had on our politics, and it's not just us. Even with very radical changes world wide our planet's inhabitants are in for a very rough ride, and we know that will not happen anytime soon.

This is a problem with a multitude of contributing factors, but all we can do is to force our country into an about face on the issue and hopefully use our power and influence to push the rest of the world towards seriously addressing the problem. I am afraid that by the time countries decide to do something about it, we will have already long passed any opportunity for it to make much difference.

People do not want to make the necessary sacrifices until it gets real bad FOR THEM! If extreme droughts are causing war and displacement of a countries citizens (Syria), we watch it on the news and think, "too bad for them." When California loses all of it agriculture due to no water, then we will start to discuss the issue. When food prices become out of reach for most Americans, then we might get serious. By then it will be game over.

We cannot just give up, we must fight all the harder!

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