BDS: The lies and the truth

[oberliner]

Israel is not exempt from criticism. Not every decision by the Israeli Government has been a proper one, and not each step in every confrontation within recent years has been appropriate. Conflicts create difficult situations. Self-defense against terror brings with it injustice and harm to innocent people.

The continuation of the settlement project is at the center of a heated public debate. Many Israelis think that investment in the settlements is contrary to Israeli interests and hurts the chance for peace. Within Israel there is sharp criticism against unnecessary violation of human rights, and there are many who demand that further steps be taken to increase the equality of Israeli Arabs.

But there is a difference between a legitimate argument, relevant criticism of Israeli policy, and a monumental campaign of false claims of apartheid, genocide, crimes against humanity, and proclamations that Israel was born in sin because it is a colonialist entity and as such is involved in the serious crime of ethnic cleansing.

The following short answers do not attempt to defend this government, or any other government of Israel. They are meant only to refute some of the false claims that are uttered time and again against Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4704703,00.html

[Mosby]

1. Great article, bookmarking it.

[oberliner]

16. Thanks

I don't agree with him on all of this but he raises some reasonable points.

[geek tragedy]

2. Oh Lordy, do Jewish Israelis really believe this crap?

The Lie: "Continuing the settlement project is proof that Israel does not want peace."

The Truth: The settlements are at the center of a heated debate within the Israeli public. The criticism against it, one has to stress, is not part of the demonization. But the peace proposals make it clear that the settlements are not an obstacle for peace.

Pro-apartheid sewage.

Israel has evacuated thousands of settlers from the Gaza Strip. In any future agreement, there will be settlers living in settlement blocks on 5% of the area. The agreements regarding the minority of settlers outside those blocks, is subject to negotiations between the parties. Maybe they will stay where they are. Just as there is an Arab minority in Israel, there could be a Jewish minority in the Palestinian State. Or perhaps a different arrangement will be found.

"Those cancer cells in the lymph nodes and liver are subject to further negotiation. Maybe there will be an organ of cancer cells within the liver."

The idea that the Meir Kahane crowd in the illegal settlements is going to submit to the sovereignty and law of a Palestinian government is behind stupid.

[Israeli]

6. The short answer to .....

" Oh Lordy, do Jewish Israelis really believe this crap? "

Is no geek tragedy........least not all of us .

The long answer is to do a search for ben dror yemini @ 972 ....if you want a deeper analysis as to why .

[oberliner]

12. You have no idea what you are talking about

These are absolutely mainstream views held by the majority of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.

[Israeli]

28. whatever oberliner ....

Anyone bothered enough to do a search for ben dror yemini @ 972 ?????

Or are we all going to swallow oberliner's version ?

[oberliner]

41. Have you done a search for Ravit Hecht @ 972?

You posted a piece from Ravit Hecht down thread.

Ever do a search on Ravit at 972?

Excerpt:

The problem is that many on the Israeli left see it the way Hecht does: For them the establishment of a Palestinian state is not a solution to the extreme situation of inequality between the river and the sea. For the left, the solution is a kind of deal made among the Israeli elites, in which the occupied territories are traded off for continual control of the 78 percent of the total area that will remain ours. And the brilliant part of the whole thing is that the price will be paid by someone else – the settlers. It’s your typical liberal Tel Avivian dream: the pieces of the puzzle are falling into place, the bothersome occupation disappears and our right to remain lords of the land is maintained.

It’s no wonder, then, that no one apart from the Zionist left is buying this idea – not the right and certainly not the Palestinians. Hecht’s solution? Blame Zoabi, of course.

http://972mag.com/why-does-the-israeli-left-hate-haneen-zoabi/95979/

[King_David]

17. Your rhetoric on Israel is at fever pitch

How do you feel about our president and Democratic Party candidates being so firmly pro Israel .

I wouldn't be able to support any of them if I felt as strongly as your extremist rhetoric supposes you do.

Luckily I agree with and support Bernie Sanders for president and his super string support for the Jewish State...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134113789

[geek tragedy]

25. "the settlements are not an obstacle for peace."

Anyone who believes this is already playing for Team Apartheid, and deserves to sit next to PW Botha and Lester Maddox in the annals of history.

And if Bernie comes out and says that, I will be removing him from my avatar. But I am quite confident he will not tell a Big Lie like "the settlements are not an obstacle for peace."

Even Hillary doesn't believe that nonsense.

[King_David]

26. Fever pitch. nt

[geek tragedy]

27. do you agree or disagree with the claim that "the settlements are not an obstacle to peace."

agree or disagree?

true or false?

[King_David]

30. I agree the settlements must face the same fate as the Gaza settlements

As part of a comprehensive peace plan but without the consequences of withdrawal that Gaza saw.

[geek tragedy]

31. ok. thanks nt

[Israeli]

35. Shir Hever on the BDS impact.......

[geek tragedy]

3. This is a real knee-slapper

The Lie: "Israel enforces an apartheid policy in the occupied territories."

The Truth: Israel has completely withdrawn from the Gaza Strip, and most West Bank Arabs live under the Palestinian Authority which covers most aspects of their lives. The Palestinians on the other side of the Green Line are not Israeli citizens, because they aspire for a Palestinian State, and Israel did not annex the West Bank. Over the last few decades, Israel has accepted, time and again, a settlement of two states for two peoples. Arafat rejected Bill Clinton’s proposal, and Mahmud Abbas (Abu Mazen) rejected a similar proposal by Ehud Olmert. On the very day that the Palestinian leadership accepts a two state solution – a peace agreement will be within reach.

Yeah, never mind that Israel's current government is actively opposed to the two-state solution and is committed to the one-state solution, i.e. Apartheid.

[oberliner]

4. Yes, it's a shame that the Palestinians didn't accept the several previous 2-state proposals

Because, as you say, Israel's current government is not looking to make the kind of offers proposed by past Israeli leaders that Palestinian leaders rejected.

[geek tragedy]

5. The kind of offers that the Knesset would never approve.

But, that's distant and irrelevant history.

There is only a one-state solution. The two-state solution is dead , regardless of who blames who for its death.

The only question is how long the post-Democratic Zionist apartheid era will last before it's superseded by the post-Zionist democratic, binational state.

[oberliner]

13. Sadly, we never got a chance to find out

The Clinton deal would have probably gone through. But as you say - distant history. Best to deal in the here and now.

If you want to join the far RW in Israel in declaring the two-state solution to be dead, be my guest.

Personally, I still believe that Palestinians ought to have their own state living side by side at peace with Israel and will stand with others who support that noble goal.

[geek tragedy]

18. A goal's nobility has no bearing on whether

it is physically possible.

[leftynyc]

7. This will come in handy

Thanks for posting it. I find it quite easy to criticize the Bibi government without setting my hair on fire and accusing them of being nazis.

[Israeli]

8. In my experience leftynyc.....

....its been the other way around .....

The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister and Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of Israeli right-wing dissent over the Oslo peace process. Rabin, despite his extensive service in the Israeli military, was disparaged personally by right-wing conservatives and Likud leaders who perceived the Oslo peace process as an attempt to forfeit the occupied territories.

National religious conservatives and Likud party leaders believed that withdrawing from any "Jewish" land was heresy. Rallies, organized partially by Likud, became increasingly extreme in tone. Likud leader (and future Prime Minister) Benjamin Netanyahu accused Rabin's government of being "removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values." Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target in the cross-hairs of a sniper.[1] Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin

[leftynyc]

10. And I've blasted that nonsense also

But you've been here on DU long enough to see the charges of nazis, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. I wasn't even talking about the people outside the US. I was talking about people right here who should know better and don't seem to give a shit.

[Israeli]

11. " nonsense "

What exactly is nonsensical about Rabin's assassination that I can help you with leftynyc ?

[oberliner]

14. The nonsense is the part that you bolded

Sick people making grotesque Nazi comparisons.

Such behavior ought to be condemned from whatever corner it comes.

[leftynyc]

22. Seems the poster

wants to focus on something that wasn't part of the conversation to accuse me of something I didn't say. Pretty typical for the I/P bullshit but I stopped caring long ago to those who want to ignore the ugliness - unless it's directed towards "their side".

[leftynyc]

21. Spare me the condescending bullshit

If you wish to believe that's what I was saying, that's entirely your problem. I'm not interested.

[Israeli]

29. No problem leftynyc.....

No surprise for me that you are not interested .

[leftynyc]

33. Shrug

Your choice. Couldn't care less.

[Little Tich]

9. The OP is so factually incorrect it could be posted on CAMERA.

I haven't checked the OP carefully, but from what I've seen so far, there isn't a single accurate fact. I don't really mind when OPs are displaying ideological differences from my own, but this article is unworkable. It's 100% hasbara.

[oberliner]

15. You want to believe that so you make it true for yourself

Think about why that is.

Clearly you are wrong when you say "there isn't a single accurate fact" - ask yourself why you would make a statement like that.

Or how about this: being completely objective, try to find one single accurate fact.

I bet you can do it.

I'll get you started:

In 1947 the U.N. declared the establishment of two States between the River Jordan and the sea – a Jewish State and an Arab State.

Arabs serve as Members of Parliament, as judges in courts, including the Supreme Court, as professors and doctors.

The head of the panel of judges who sent former Israeli president Moshe Katsav to jail, for example, was an Arab judge.

The chairman of the Central Election Committee in 2015 Elections was also an Arab.

[Little Tich]

20. Actually, those sentences are sort of correct when taken out of context,

but they're not correct when in the context of the OP.

In 1947 the U.N. declared the establishment of two States between the River Jordan and the sea – a Jewish State and an Arab State.

Interestingly, one of the prerequisites for those two states was that nobody should have to be moved against their will, which was already happening when the Yishuv had started the Nakba in small scale even before this declaration. The Nakba can be mostly blamed on the Yishuv and later Israel, and the idea that the "Jewish" state actually meant "without Arabs" was something that the Yishuv and absolutely nobody else took for granted. Why don't you read Benny Morris's book on the subject: "The Palestinian Refugee problem revisited"? It's not without flaws, but it's downloadable by anyone, and it would help if you had enough historical knowledge to see through Ben-Dror Yemini's obvious attempt at revisionism.

Oh, and all those other sentences about equal rights are false: All and only Jewish citizens of Israel are full citizens of Israel. All other citizens of Israel can't have full citizenship. Only full citizens of Israel have collective ethnic rights, the right to live on state lands, being conscripted etc. I think you can find a list of ethnically discriminatory laws at Adalah's website (http://www.adalah.org/en/law/index), but why even bother looking, when you can cover your ears and sing loudly instead, and continue to believe that what Ben-Dror Yemini wrote was the truth?

I found an article from Mondoweiss that you could use as a primer for the Adalah list of laws:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/database-discriminatory-israel. I don't know anything about the author, and I didn't choose it because it was Mondoweiss, it was just on top of the list.

[oberliner]

23. They are all entirely correct in exactly the context they are presented

That you are going to Mondoweiss to get your information is, in and of itself, informative.

That you can't even recognize that those basic facts I presented are actually true - that you can't even acknowledge that a single one is accurate and that your earlier statement was wrong is something worth reflecting on.

[leftynyc]

24. The very second I

see mondoweiss, I completely discount the post as it's proper place is in the toilet. That anyone thinks they're an appropriate source is bewildering.

[Israeli]

32. The very second I.....

see anything by ben dror yemini.....I think the same .

[oberliner]

44. Yedioth Ahronoth is the most widely read newspaper in Israel

It is fine to be dismissive of Ben Dror Yemini but it is important to at least be aware that he represents the mainstream Israeli POV, having been a prominent writer for both Ma'ariv and Yedioth Ahronoth. These are not fringe vanity blogs like Mondoweiss.

[Little Tich]

34. Any sentence can be true in the right context, it doesn't depend on the sentence,

only on the context.

I must admire your resistance to Mondoweiss, though. It's futile, but very gallant...

[oberliner]

36. Mondoweiss is a great exemplar of a particular POV

I just would think such a POV would be unwelcome here. I am amazed that anyone would take it seriously, just as I would be amazed if someone took Pamela Geller's website seriously.

Can you imagine if links to Pamela's vanity site were posted here repeatedly, with people taking her garbage seriously?

I would imagine there would be steadfast resistance to such postings.

Pamela and Philip and their vanity sites ought to be seen for the hateful garbage that they are.

I would think that any reasonable supporter of Palestinians would distance themselves from Philip's vanity site in the same way that I would think any reasonable supporter of Israelis would distance themselves from Pamela's.

[6chars]

19. Extremely useful

Thanks for sharing this.

[Israeli]

37. Israel's Problem Isn't BDS It's the Occupation

One can object to boycotts. But sanctimonious wailing and the automatic posing as victims coated with the memory of the Holocaust won't hide the fact that Israel is ruling over an entire other nation.

Ravit Hecht Jun 03, 2015

The daily Yedioth Ahronoth has launched a campaign called “Fighting the boycott” — the subheadline declares that the paper too “is mobilizing to join the battle.” Yedioth was never a journal with a particular ideology, so it’s probably trying to position itself as a patriotic, right-wing paper in its war against the leading daily, the free Israel Hayom owned by U.S. casino magnate Sheldon Adelson.

The campaign's opening salvo was an article by right-wing journalist Ben-Dror Yemini, who accused rock star Roger Waters, gender theorist Judith Butler (a Jew) and physicist Stephen Hawking of harboring dark motives and anti-Semitism in their opposition to the occupation.

Yemini lays out the usual right-wing argument against anti-Israel initiatives: The boycott, divestment and sanctions movement, despite the way it presents itself, not only opposes the occupation but denies Israel’s very right to exist.

According to this thinking, Nazi-like propaganda methods ensnare naïve young Jews who espouse values of tikkun olam, repairing the world. In addition, the global struggle against the occupation is hypocritical and biased because only Israel is targeted, not those awful countries like Iran, Sudan or North Korea.

This last argument is particularly interesting because it’s popular on the right and implies an unconscious admission of guilt. If Israel is as pure as the driven snow, why should it be mentioned in the same breath as emblems of human rights violations? If Israel is completely blameless, why does it need special treatment or a better spot in the group of problem countries?

The answer is that most Israelis — even if they fear territorial concessions for security reasons and don’t believe that a peace deal with the Arabs is sustainable — know that Israel is committing an injustice against civilians and denying them their freedom. They know that in the frequent rounds of violence, Israel kills thousands of innocent people as well as terrorists. They know that in a certain place under Israeli rule there is one legal regime for one nation (Israeli law for settlers) and a different one for another nation (military law for Palestinians).

How does one deal with such guilt, to which Yemini is also an accomplice? “Israel, of course, is far from perfect”, the writer states before returning to the real enemy, the BDS movement.

Yemini sets BDS in his sights, but Israel faced a suspension from FIFA last week not because of that vilified organization but because of claims by the Palestinian Football Association that others supported. The affair that made the whole country hold its breath proves the opposite of what Yemini is arguing. Israel is a member of FIFA because the world recognizes its sovereignty within the 1967 borders. It risked expulsion because of its policies in territories it captured in 1967.

Stretching the conflict back to 1948, which Yemini attributes to the boycott movement, serves his goal. It removes with a magic wand Israel’s responsibility for the situation that began in 1967.

The hope that the Palestinians will quietly resign themselves to the settlements, happily content with the conditions imposed by the occupation, is unrealistic. What can we do if they impudently insist on resisting and striving for freedom, their natural right?

Under those circumstances, what kind of struggle do Yemini and his right-wing readers, or any other reasonable person, prefer? Diplomatic and economic measures or exploding buses? UN votes or suicide bombers?

One can object to boycotts, including cultural or economic boycotts of the settlements. But sanctimonious wailing and the automatic posing as victims coated with the memory of the Holocaust is as mistaken an approach as the one Yemini accuses BDS of. Israel’s problem isn’t BDS or Jibril Rajoub — it’s the occupation.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.659292

[oberliner]

38. If the occupation ended tomorrow, BDS would still continue

Ending the occupation is only one of their three stated primary goals. The leadership has explicitly said that ending the occupation is not enough for the BDS movement to cease activities. In fact, they have stated that a full right of return for all Palestinians is as important, if not more so, as ending the occupation.

[Israeli]

39. oberliner......

How do you expect me to take anything you post seriously when you post an opinion piece by
Ben-Dror Yemini ????????? !!!!!!!!

The campaign's opening salvo was an article by right-wing journalist Ben-Dror Yemini, who accused rock star Roger Waters, gender theorist Judith Butler (a Jew) and physicist Stephen Hawking of harboring dark motives and anti-Semitism in their opposition to the occupation.

I think we are done communicating with each other ....I will try and avoid you as I try to do with shira from now on .

Best wishes .... bye .

[oberliner]

40. Let's work together to try to hash out our differences

My view is that the point of a discussion board is to try to convince those with whom you disagree.

I find myself interacting much more frequently on this board with those whose opinions I most vehemently disagree with in order to try to find common ground.

I would encourage you to do the same.

We basically share the same values and goals for the future of Israelis and Palestinians though we have different ideas on how to get there.

We both want to help promote peace even though we each sometimes post op-eds from people that the other finds to be right-wing or otherwise flawed.

Let's keep the conversation going - I very much enjoy exchanging ideas with you even when we disagree.

Edit to add: 972mag presents Ravit Hecht (the author you just posted here) in a very unfavorable light as well.

[Israeli]

45. oberliner.........

I suggest you read through this thread again ....

You :
" You have no idea what you are talking about "
me :
Shir Hever on the BDS impact ( did you listen to him ? )

Ben-Dror Yemini hates those that think as I do oberliner......hates us with a passion .

Here : ...

When the substantive arguments are exhausted, the incitement begins; when one doesn't know how to contend with opinions and views, one calls them lies. When one wants to strangle those with other positions, one calls them "baron" and "industry." When the anti-critical atmosphere runs wild, making McCarthyism look like an enlightened movement, all the populist pen-pushers rush in. And when one wants to silence critics, they fabricate accusations.

Yemini has adopted the goal of battling the world's "industry of lies" against Israel. This, of course, is a worthy objective, certainly for propagandists. Yemini is one of the active among them; the baron of the manipulation industry. There is just one little problem: Even this war must be based on truth - a commodity that is superfluous for him and those like him.

And despite it all, on the day that Yemini is silenced or harmed, critical journalists and the left will become the monster that Ben Dror Yemini creates in his febrile brain. He must not be permitted this pleasure. We must not be given this punishment.

On second thought, there's no cause for concern. The left has never lifted a finger against anyone in Israel. That's reserved for the right. Yemini can continue to sling his mud without hindrance.

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/twilight-zone-baron-of-manipulation-1.320636

He is Right wing !!!!!........its you that have no idea what you are talking about.

[azurnoir]

46. what becomes quite apparent is that a non-violent movement such as BDS strikes fear

into the collective hearts of Israel's boosters, who by now know it is out their control-the BDS movement has grown beyond the finger pointing Nazi era comparisons and wails of anti-semitism

[oberliner]

48. Yes, BDS does have that effect

It's more revulsion than fear - but some fear certainly that such loathsome people as the leadership of the BDS movement are taken seriously by other more reasonable people.

It's the same sort of fear that I feel when people like Ben Carson do so well in the polls.

[oberliner]

47. OK

But I feel about Mondoweiss the way you feel about Yemini. Maybe we're both right?

[FarrenH]

42. "The truth" about the Apartheid allegation

rests on the putative justice of offers made in negotiations that have often had the appearance of theater - not contemporary structural realities.

"The lie" rests on facts on the ground. Decades long systems of control - of airspace, borders, population registries and so on, imposed on one ethnicity, for the benefit of another, by a government they have no representation in.

Orwellian comparisons are often overplayed, but in this case I think invoking a comparison to Newspeak might be appropriate. Up is down. Left is right. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

[oberliner]

43. The point can be made more effectively without the analogy

Clearly, the occupation is fundamentally wrong. I think that one can simply make the points that you do in order to highlight those issues and direct people to support changing the status quo.