Breaking the silence: Confessions of IDF soldiers

[shaayecanaan]

Extracts from testimonies of Israeli soldiers

First Sergeant, Kfir Brigade
"The commander gripped the kid, stuck his gun in his mouth, yelled ... The kid was hardly able to walk. We dragged him further, and then he said again: 'One more time this kid lifts a stone, anything, I kill him. No mercy'."

Kfir Brigade, Ramallah
"We had lots of X's (marked on the side of a soldier's rifle, indicating the number of people he's killed) at that time. The battalion loved it. There was an ambush around there where a kid coming up with a Molotov cocktail had his leg blown off. They laid ambush exactly at that spot. Kids came, the soldiers were there, the kids lit a bottle, and they were shot in the leg."

First Sergeant, Nablus
"We would enter villages on a daily basis, at least twice or three times a day, to make our presence felt, and ... it was like we were occupying them. Showing we're there, that the area is ours, not theirs. At first you point your gun at some five-year-old kid, and feel bad afterward, saying it's not right. Then you get to a point where ... you get so nervous and sick of going into a village and getting stones thrown at you."

First Sergeant, Hebron
"So there's a school there. We'd often provoke riots there. We'd be on patrol, walking in the village, bored, so we'd trash shops, find a detonator, beat someone to a pulp, you know how it is. Search, mess it all up. Say we'd want a riot? We'd go up to the windows of a mosque, smash the panes, throw in a stun grenade, make a big boom, then we'd get a riot."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/israeli-soldiers-expose-plight-of-palestinian-children-20120826-24ueo.html

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

[oberliner]

1. This is great

Civilians tend to want to shield themselves from this sort of knowledge.

There should be organizations like this for every army (and paramilitary group) in the world.

Perhaps that might be a first step towards world peace.

[azurnoir]

2. really think so ?

I ask because on a similar thread you accused the OP of misrepresenting the article and chose a picture the single picture of a number in the article that was said by another poster to depict a Palestinian child attempting to murder a Jewish women to represent the article but now you claim to think this is great makes one wonder what's up?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113417114

[oberliner]

3. Absolutely

Every army should be held accountable for their actions.

The civilian population has a right, and indeed a duty, to know what the army is doing in their name.

In the other thread on the same topic, I thought the photo included in the article was really intense and arresting so I shared that thought.

The fact that children are involved in this conflict in so many ways and at so many levels is quite disturbing.

[azurnoir]

4. then explain why you seemed to think otherwise on a similar thread?

it would seem a conflict of sorts

[oberliner]

11. You see what you look for

I don't think otherwise at all. Not sure where you would've gotten that idea. Was surprised that you had some kind of issue with the photo, especially considering it was in the actual OP that you posted. This issue deserves attention - as do all of the factors that have shaped some members of the IDF. The way children are viewed and used in this conflict is sad. Even sadder and scarier is the way children are viewed and used in other conflicts around the world, which is why I wish organizations like this existed everywhere.

[azurnoir]

12. The article was titled Exposing Israeli teens to IDF child abuse

you chose a photo attacking an Israeli civilian as representing the articles contents and accused me of editing in such a way as to change the subject

but if that what you gathered from the article so be it however the article was actually Breaking the Silence handing out its report about IDF abuses of Palestinians n the OPT to Israeli teenagers who were soon to enter the military, whereas you seemed to feel it was really about how much Palestinian children hate IDF and oh Israelis or at least you accused me of misrepresenting the article

Hopefully people will take the time to read the actual article instead of falling for your habit of attempting to reshape articles through cuts and omissions to make them say only what you want them to say.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113417114#post7

we are allowed 4 paragraphs I chose the four that IMO opinion represented what the atricle was about

now I suspect your explanation will something like but there was some stuff about how much Palestinian (kids) hate IDF yes there was a bit however it was stated as a result of IDF practices not the main subject of the article

[oberliner]

14. The photo was from the article

Presumably the source felt that photo was relevant. I agreed.

Your editing, on the other hand, left something to be desired, and I said so.

[azurnoir]

15. yes in an article entitled "Exposing Israeli teens to IDF child abuse"

I should have made more of how much these children hate not only IDF and Israelis but perhaps Jews too actually that picture had nothing to do with article and was from another incident but you zeroed right in on what you felt important and it was not what you are claiming here

[pelsar]

5. just some additional info...

to begin with the occupation by its very nature corrupts the army.....occupation is a very gray area when it comes to enforcing rules/laws while attempting to save lives and prevent attacks.

Hence the organization is good as it publicizes the darker areas of the occupation and how it corrupts.



there is a sad truth to this

First Sergeant, Nablus
"We would enter villages on a daily basis, at least twice or three times a day, to make our presence felt, and ... it was like we were occupying them. Showing we're there, that the area is ours, not theirs. At first you point your gun at some five-year-old kid, and feel bad afterward, saying it's not right. Then you get to a point where ... you get so nervous and sick of going into a village and getting stones thrown at you."

every new unit gets tested as they enter a new area: the more experience ones are bastards the first day or two and, they get quiet for the period, if they are "nice" in the beginning, they are rewarded with stones, Molotov cocktails, bombs and bullets for the duration and wounded and dead on both sides.

and thats the ugly reality of an occupation......

[shaayecanaan]

9. Back in the early days in Lebanon...

when the Civil War kicked off in the 70s, factional lines were a bit more complicated. There were leftist Christians, for example, who supported the Syrian Baathists, rather than the Christian militia (the Phlange).

I remember a story that a particular leading family in a particular street had a visit from one of the headkickers in the Christian militia. He said that "because I am a fair man, there shall be one for you and one for me". He then cut off both the ears of one of their sons, and made him eat one. He then put the other ear in his pocket.

Back then, this was such a striking piece of brutality that everyone in that vicinity forgot any objections that they might have had to the Phlange. A temporary peace came over those streets and for a short time children could play and then go home and sleep the quiet sleep of the saved.

[holdencaufield]

6. First Sergeant ...

... isn't a rank in the IDF, it's a billet.

An example of similar sounding IDF rank is Chief Sergeant First Class (Rav samal rishon in Hebrew) -- equivalent to a Master Sergeant in the US Army. Or a Sergeant First Class (samal rishon) -- equivalent to a Staff Sergeant in the US Army.

First Sergeant on the other hand is a term for the most senior enlisted man (or woman) in a unit, regardless of rank. A very senior enlisted position and typically not one who would be running around bored "trashing shops".

"Breaking the Silence.Org.IL" claims to it

"is an organization of veteran combatants who have served in the Israeli military since the start of the Second Intifada and have taken it upon themselves to expose the Israeli public to the reality of everyday life in the Occupied Territories."


You would think that a website run by IDF combat veterans would know something like that, wouldn't you?

[shira]

7. They'd be more effective if they weren't intentionally anonymous.

Last edited Mon Aug 27, 2012, 10:06 AM - Edit history (2)

Hard to bring charges against offenders w/ anonymous sources. Very much like totalitarian societies where unfounded rumors could stir all kinds of shit up.

[holdencaufield]

8. I smell a Jesse Adam Macbeth

[oberliner]

10. IDF uses the title "First Sergeant" on its blog

First Sergeant Marina Izmailov , a combat soldier in the Oketz canine unit, will appear in the President’s residence to receive a citation of excellence from President Shimon Peres on Israel’s 62nd Independence Day.

http://www.idfblog.com/2010/03/24/first-sergeant-marina-izmailov-to-receive-a-citation-of-excellence-24-mar-2010/

I don't think you have a valid point here.

[holdencaufield]

16. Yes, you're right

It's a title, not a rank.

A First Sergeant is a senior enlisted (the most senior enlisted in a given unit) and not someone who goes out on daily patrols, gets bored and shoots up a shop. That sort of behaviour might be the work of a junior enlisted if they weren't properly led -- a Sergeant First Class maybe.

An IDF Veteran (or any Veteran) wouldn't confuse the terms First Sergeant and Sergeant First Class -- they are two completely different things.

[oberliner]

17. So what do you make of these reports?

You think they are bogus?

[holdencaufield]

20. Let's see ...

... the reports are anonymous and uncorroborated. No names or dates, so they can't be investigated further. There is at least one superficial inconsistency that I found (people actually on the ground would no doubt find more if allowed to investigate). The organization clearly has an agenda, as per Ha'artez, “Breaking the Silence...has a clear political agenda, and can no longer be classed as a ‘human rights organization." -- and if you're too agenda driven for Ha'aretz, that's saying something.

Given all that -- the scientific method DEMANDS I be a little skeptical, doesn't it?

That incidents happen when bored soldiers are doing police duty in a hostile environment is without question. Bad things happen when soldiers become policemen because it's not what they do (by training or temperament). For example, Iraq. The military mission of the Iraq Invasion was an unmitigated success -- policing the populace AFTER the war was a disaster.

[azurnoir]

13. more from +972

Once there was a stone-throwing incident at Gross Square, so we were alerted and the kid appeared and we were called from HQ, and the lookout instructed us: “Listen, stop where you are, he’s right next to you.”

How old was he?

15 years old. His name was Daoud. We stopped our vehicle, ran out, he was in total shock. We took him to Gross Post, to the Jewish side, and he began to cry, scream, he was just streaming sweat and tears. We had nothing to do with him, suddenly you end up with a crying kid. A second ago he was throwing roof tiles at the army post, and you’re dying to beat him to a pulp, and you’re alerted out there in that heat. You want to kill him but he’s crying. We didn’t know what to do, so we put him under watch. Once someone who was with him went wild, did something to him and left.

At some point when I was with him I tried to calm him down because he was tied, blindfolded, and crying, tears and sweat streaming out all over. I began to shake him, then the deputy company commander tried. He grabbed him and began to shake him: “Shut up, shut up, enough, cut it out!” Then we took him to the police station at Givat Ha’avot and he continued to cry because the policemen didn’t take him in for interrogation. He was so annoying, this was insane. In all that mess, while he was crawling on the floor, the communications man took out his Motorola, his two-way radio and boom! – banged him on the head. Not meaning to be cruel, just hearing that unbearable crying for over two hours.

http://972mag.com/testimonies-by-israeli-soldiers-detail-abuse-of-palestinian-children/54573/

[oberliner]

18. It's actually not "more from 972"

It's the same report that they are citing.

Maybe you can just post all the testimonies from the report.

Or maybe people can go to the link provided in the OP and read them themselves.

[azurnoir]

19. Lol okay

seems your support gives way to over reporting yes indeed