Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumDealing with Hamas’s human shield tactics
The IAF is dealing with an enemy keen on using the densely populated Gaza Strip as a rocket base, often shooting the projectiles from the tops of residential buildings, or near schools, mosques, and other public places.
Such tactics are not new for Hamas and Islamic Jihad. In recent years, Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya declared that the Palestinians are a nation of jihad and martyrdom, while Hamas MP Fathi Hamed, addressing Israel, said, We desire death more than you desire life....
...In line with this ideology, rockets and explosives are hidden in Gazan homes, and senior terrorists, such as Yahiya Abiya, the head of Hamass rocket program, often remain in homes surrounded by civilians.
While the IDF makes major efforts to avoid harming civilians, such as distributing warning leaflets instructing noncombatants to stay away from areas used by Hamas to fire on Israel, phoning- in warnings, and deliberately missing targets on the first strike, to give civilians time to leave, these attempts at caution dont always succeed....
http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=292646
Great first comment to article at JPost:
shira
(30,109 posts)Here is the head of Hamas, whose boys systematically fire from the midst of civilians, in order create civilian casualties they can then blame on Israeli counter-strikes, exploiting a death directly caused by his men in order to appeal to Wwestern sympathy. It would be hard to imagine a more stunning portrait of the most depraved hypocrisy (and contempt for viewers who believe this display of compassion). If hypocrisy is the compliment that vice pays to virtue, then this brazen hypocrisy is the contempt vice shows for the pathetic stupidity of the supposedly virtuous.
After all, it is hard to imagine a more grotesque expression of a mutual corruption: trying to demonise your enemy before an outside audience whom you expect to side with you in the name of empathy for the very children you victimise. How disordered must the emotional and moral world of someone subject to this kind of manipulation?
Not only that, but Haniyah dragged into this humiliating display the prime minister of Egypts new Muslim Brotherhood government, trying to show support for her Palestinian branch, Hamas. Prime Minister Hesham Kandil jumped right in, kissing the baby, and subsequently testifying (in what BBC Correspondent Wyre Davies found to be a powerful statement): his blood is still on our clothing. Kandils a fool eagerly trying to join in the morbid circus Haniyah and Hamas so frequently stage. Haniyah, thinking he could get away with it, has dragged Kandil into this shameless pornography of death.
One last reflection. Hamass strategy has long been to attack from behind civilians to provoke Israeli retaliation and then use the collateral damage of those victims as a way to blame Israel. This is in fact a key element of their asymmetrical war with Israel. As one Gazan explained to an Italian reporter towards the end of Operation Cast Lead (OCL):
The Hamas militants looked for good places to provoke the Israelis. They were usually youths, 16 or 17 years old, armed with submachine guns. They couldnt do anything against a tank or jet. They knew they were much weaker. But they wanted the [Israelis] to shoot at the [the civilians] houses so they could accuse them of more war crimes.
In other words, Hamas engages in the exceptionally rare wartime act of actively victimizing ones own civilian population specifically a war crime in order to win a victory in cognitive war. And they can only do so, if a corrupt media on the scene (including NGOs and UN agencies), rather than expose their criminal strategies, play along and present the images of dead babies in the framework of the Palestinian narrative of Israeli victimisation.
The fact that Hamas thought they could clean up the scene and pull off a Gaza Beach, successfully blaming the Israelis for the tragedy, speaks eloquently of their exceptionally low appraisal of the forensic acumen of the Western press (or their power to indimidate). And they have good reason to so believe. After all, Goldstone, in his investigation into the abuses of the Palestinian people during OCL, never once looked into this kind of human shielding. Imagine if he had!
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/richardlandes/100190395/pallywood-and-the-pornography-of-death-the-western-media-suckered-again/
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Is that what I'm reading here, Shira? Sure looks like it.
"The devil made me do it!"
Hamas is responsible for what Hamas does, and Israel is responsible for what Israel does. Difficult concept I suppose?
shira
(30,109 posts)This part is fine:
I agree.
The problem is, those who hate on Israel the most do not even acknowledge Hamas' vile strategy (shielding) of victimizing their own population. They're enablers of Hamas' deplorable actions. IOW, terror supporters.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and keep in mind IDF has aerial drones that allow them to very plainly see what they are targeting are supporting terrorism?
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 24, 2012, 06:23 AM - Edit history (3)
...mainly, using their own population as shields & hoping for civilian casualties, are apologists, enablers, and supporters of Hamas. They know it's happening but they're all for it. They won't admit it b/c it hurts their case when bashing Israel.
Like Hamas, they could care less about Palestinians being killed. In fact, these Hamas boosters enjoy seeing Palestinians killed by Israel (so they can help Hamas in the cognitive warfare department, i.e., demonization of Israel). These bashers of Israel don't side with Palestinians. They side with those who use Palestinians as sacrificial pawns (Hamas). Hamas does this because it works and it's an effective way of attacking Israel. Hamas' apologists, supporters, and boosters know that Hamas does this and they're very willing to enable such behavior. It's a win-win for Hamas. Attack Israelis, terrorize them, and kill them. If Israelis self-defend and attack back at Hamas, then hopefully via human shielding, the Israelis kill some Palestinians. That's also a (media/PR) win for Hamas in the cognitive warfare department. So yeah, the Israel bashers are terror supporters. They're allies of Hamas (whose genocidal charter calls for the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews) in their war on Israel.
Hamas can't pull this evil off without them. They can't do it without their co-dependents in the media and "human rights" community.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Your argument here really seems to be "the devil made me do it." It's Israeli commands ordering Israeli hands to drop Israeli bombs, but, gosh, Hamas made them do it, the Israelis had no say in the matter at all, they are just helpless, blameless little puppets dancing around on strings held by Hamas.
Which is bullshit.
The IDF says it's going after Hamas' weapons placements. Alright, let's go with that, and assume all the other stuff that gets bombed is due to Lowest-Bidder contracts or gremlins or whatever.
Ever seen what a Hamas "weapons placement" looks like? For your edification:
(Okay, technically these are Islamic Jihad, but you get the idea)
You notice that these aren't big expensive launch platforms or missile batteries. They're, what, rebar? A little steel plate? Blowing this up probably isn't going to deal a substantial blow to Hamas' resources, firepower, or weapons capability. They're sort of the exact opposite of irreplaceable (which is probably the whole damn point).
Next, for all your hysterics over bajillions of rockets fired at Israel... They really don't matter. Not to belittle their lethal potential here, but... well, they aren't particularly good at living up to that potential. Out of all the rockets fired by Hamas since 2001, when they started, sixty-seven Israelis have died from them. In total. They're wildly inaccurate, often end up being duds, and Israel's civil instruction and infrastructure go a long way to keeping Israelis safe as well.
And that was before the Iron Dome system went online. As I said in another post, I was skeptical of this at first, but on its first run, it had a, what, 90% success rate? That's fucking phenomenal, and I'm sure it will only improve as kinks and bugs are worked out.
So to recap. The IDF is choosing to drop bombs (not famed for being very discriminate weapons) on weapons placements that don't hurt Hamas' fighting capability. The weapons themselves are, for the most part, a trivial threat. And in so doing, nearly two hundred Palestinians die.
That's a lot of people to die in order for Israel to accomplish nothing, I think. Maybe you disagree, I dunno. But let's not pretend Israel's hand was forced into this, as if this were some terrible, existential threat, one where no cost is too great to pay to end.
shira
(30,109 posts)After all, they're not too lethal and not many Israelis have died from them.
Unreal.
What do you expect Israel to do in response, since you don't want them doing what any other nation in the same situation would do?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)This has been going on for twelve years, since Hamas first started its rocket attacks. Israel - and its boosters like yourself - insist that bombing the everloving shit out of Gaza is going to stop the rockets. But the rockets keep coming. So Israel and its boosters insist that more bombing needs to be done. The rockets still keep coming. So you want more bombs, more bombs, because that's working so fucking well!
Most nations would not spend twelve years doing the same fucking thing over and over again, despite ample evidence that it's achieving nothing.
Despite your ridiculous, I am not saying "millions of Israelis should lie back and enjoy the rocket shower." I'm saying that Israel is well-defended against those rockets. Are you going to argue otherwise? I'm pretty impressed by their defense system, as well as the system of alerts, civilian training, and speed of emergency response.
That being the case, Israel isn't exactly facing a desperate struggle here. This isn't a "do or die" thing, where any knee-jerk response is acceptable to the alternative. I'm not saying that Israelis should "just take it," I'm saying Israelis should rely on their excellent defenses while taking some time to figure out a solution to the problem that fucking works.
Blowing up Palestinians does not make Israel safer. Again, I think this is a concept you have extreme difficulty understanding, much less accepting. But that's the truth of the matter. Israel's offensives into Gaza are not degrading the militants' weapons capability, because those weapons are made of fucking scrap metal. All it's accomplishing is killing Gaza needlessly - and before you start, no, I don't think that's what Israel is trying to do, but it is what's happening. I'd like to think we both agree that needless deaths are unacceptable.
Bombs and guns aren't working to deal with Hamas or the other militants. In fact it does the opposite, it seems - it makes martyrs of current members and drives other Palestinians to join their ranks out of fear, out of anger, out of desperation. Israel's offensives are actually having a negative impact on Israel's stated goals.
The answer to the issue is diplomacy and subterfuge. Offer to talk, while working to undermine their power base. Israel needs to make its position more appealing to the Palestinians than Hamas' position, basically.
shira
(30,109 posts)...for those rockets. They wouldn't accept 10,000 rockets over an 8 year period.
Actually, what Israel did has worked so far. Before Israel started this latest operation, Hamas was firing over 100 per week into Israel. It's quieter now than it's been in a while.
You don't have an answer. You want Israel to do something different, but there isn't any other reasonable alternative. You say you don't believe Israelis should just enjoy the rockets, but in effect - even if not by intent - that's exactly what you're calling for.
I think it's fine to question Israel, but definitely not without offering a better alternative. That's where you step over the line.
My alternative is for the UN, human rights community, NGO's, etc... to rip into Hamas and threaten to do something whenever rockets fall into Israel. To this date, they've been rather quiet. And what I mean by that is leading up to Pillar of Defense, the UN would not condemn Hamas at all, despite Israel practically begging them to do so. NGO's and the human rights community were no better.
Lastly, it doesn't help that they're all rather quiet about Hamas' human shielding strategy. The primary reason Hamas persists with the rockets is they know it's a win-win situation for them. They win whether Israel responds to it or not. That cannot and should not be allowed anymore. Shame on the UN, NGO's, Human Rights Community, and Media for their silence.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)So blowing up Palestinians is the only option you see, and what's more, it's the best, most reasonable option that can be conceived?
shira
(30,109 posts)..to the NGO's and HR community, have built a fence/wall, and done the blockade bit. It's given up land for rockets (Gaza 2005). It's negotiated peace in 2000 and got Intifada 2.
All to no avail.
Last option is to attack Hamas.
I notice you have no better alternative.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/113423405#post38
No, it's not detailed. The reason for that is that I only have so much time in my day to waste talking to a reactionary blowhard. But it's an alternative, and I'm sure that someone who has more patience for you than I do could explain this sort of thing to you. Whether you understand the concepts presented is another matter entirely.
shira
(30,109 posts)They did better than just diplomacy in 2000. They actually offered a state on close to 100% of land the Palestinians were asking for, half of Jerusalem, and an end to occupation and settlements. The answer they got was Intifada 2. Same WRT 2008, in which Olmert made an even better offer. Hamas' answer were hundreds of rockets leading up to OCL.
How do you make your position anymore appealing to Palestinians than offering them their own state and an end to occupation and settlements?
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)Featuring shocking pictures of dead youth, of course.
I was hassled by some righteous clown who claimed that I was ignorant of current events. He apparently had some Palestinian ancestry that gave him extra license to be insulting.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)That also might improve the situation.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)Then that would be the nine square inches that these fundamentalists would demand that people fight and die for...
That, my good friend, was what King Hussein of Jordan had said to his inner circle many many years ago.
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)Do you have a suggestion?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Accept less than everything and move on.
PCIntern
(25,583 posts)Give the Palestinians the land they so richly deserve...in one of the countries which is using them to attack Israel continuously. Let them go there to flourish if they wish...otherwise, they can stay and make peace with the inevitable presence of Israel. Their choice. That is how it is and that is how it is going to be. Forever.
musical_soul
(775 posts)Hamas wants all the land the Israelis gone. Not going to happen.
shira
(30,109 posts)Same bozos affiliated with ISM as in FreeGaza (with Greta Berlin, etc.)
Posted on: November 20, 2012 | 1018 229 49
Human Rights Defenders Needed in Gaza: An urgent call for people of conscience
Due to the failures of the United Nations, governments and the International community to fulfill their obligation to protect the besieged civilians of Gaza, and the apparent failure of ceasefire negotiations, we urge people of conscience to come to Gaza to act as human rights defenders against the wanton lethal attacks unleashed by Israel against the civilian population.
At this time, 139 people have been murdered, including 23 children. By the time you read this, the death toll will be higher. We call on all people of conscience to do what the UN and international governments are failing to do: break the siege on Gaza by entering in groups to act as human rights defenders. We will be entering Gaza as affinity groups and the groups will remain together for the duration of their stay. In Gaza, Palestinian human rights workers will coordinate our work.
We will collectively document and report on the war crimes committed by Israel in Gaza and be present to stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people. Through our efforts we will bring the reality of life in Gaza to our own communities. Activists have the option of forming groups or delegations in their home countries, or traveling to Egypt to join other human rights defenders there. Groups will enter Gaza via Rafah crossing.
To endorse this action and join us in breaking the siege, contact: gazasolidarity2012@gmail.com
http://palsolidarity.org/2012/11/human-rights-defenders-needed-in-gaza-an-urgent-call-for-people-of-conscience/
shira
(30,109 posts)While several media outlets reported on leaflets and text warnings from the Israeli army to residents of northern and eastern Gaza to flee certain areas, many ignored Hamas' counter-instructions to stay put, thereby setting up their own civilians as vulnerable human shields.
The IDF warnings read:
And:
To the residents of of the outskirts of Shati, Al-Atatra, Beit Lahiya and Beit Hanoun: for your safety, you are required to evacuate your residences immediately and move towards central Gaza city via Al-Falujah, Al-Udda and Salah A-din. In the central Gaza city, you are required to stay between the roads of Salah A-din from the west, Amar Al-Muchtar from the north, Al-Nasser from the east and Al-Quds St. from the south.
In response to the IDF effort to keep civilians out of harm's way, the Hamas interior ministry spokesman, speaking on Al-Quds Radio in Gaza, told his people to ignore the warnings. Israeli military intelligence provides the radio transcript:
The Los Angeles Times, the Daily Mirror, the Independent and the Washington Post all reported that Israel dropped leaflets, but ignored Hamas' call for civilians to stay in the line of fire despite the risk of an Israeli ground operation in these areas. Why the partial coverage? Why ignore Hamas' response which endangers Palestinian civilians?
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2012/11/wheres_the_coverage_hamas_inst.html
musical_soul
(775 posts)because they know Hamas. They don't know Israel except through the military. It would be good if they could get to know Israelis outside of the military so they'd trust them more.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Published:
1 Jan 2011
On 6 October 2005, Israel's High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the army to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The court ruled on a petition submitted by Adalah in the name of B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations in 2002. The petition followed the army's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during operations carried out in densely populated Palestinian areas, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield.
The method was the same each time: soldiers picked a civilian at random and forced him to protect them with his body, and do dangerous tasks for them. For example, soldiers have ordered Palestinians to:
enter buildings to check if they are booby-trapped, or to remove the occupants;
remove suspicious objects from roads;
stand inside houses where soldiers set up military positions, so that Palestinians would not fire at them;
and walk in front of soldiers to shield them from gunfire, while the soldiers point a gun to their backs and sometimes fire over their shoulders.
The soldiers in the field did not initiate this practice; rather, the order to use civilians as a means of protection was made by senior army officials.
In August 2002, Nidal Abu Mheisen, a 19-year-old Palestinian from Tubas, was killed by Palestinian gunfire when soldiers forced him to serve as a human shield.
Despite the High Court's decision and army orders given before and after it, security forces continued to use Palestinians as human shields, although the number of cases dropped. In 2007, for example, B'Tselem documented 14 such instances. The organization wrote to the Military Advocate General Corps, demanding an investigation into each of the cases. B'Tselems monitoring indicates that a Military Police investigation was opened in 13 of them: in two of the cases, the investigation is continuing; in seven cases, the file was closed; and four were transferred to a military advocate for a decision whether to file charges.
During the course of Operation Cast Lead, which took place in Gaza in January 2009, B'Tselem and other organizations were informed of cases in which soldiers used Palestinians as human shields. In one case, two soldiers were prosecuted for ordering a nine-year-old boy gunpoint to open a bag that they suspected was booby-trapped. The two were given a three-month conditional sentence and demoted from staff sergeant to private.
http://www.btselem.org/human_shields
The "Neighbor Procedure"
Published:
1 Jan 2012
After the state filed its response, the IDF continued to use Palestinian civilians to order other Palestinians to leave their houses to be arrested. This practice, the "neighbor procedure," led to the death of a Palestinian man: on 14 August, soldiers sent Nidal Abu Mukhsan, a nineteen-year-old resident of Tubas, to the house of Nasser Jarar, a Hamas activist, and ordered him to get Jarar to leave his house. When Abu Mukhsan approached the house, Jarar, apparently thinking that the person coming toward him was a soldier, shot Abu Mukhsan.
Even after Mukhsan's death, the IDF did not prohibit use of the "neighbor procedure," so the seven human rights organizations went back to court, on 18 August, and demanded that a temporary injunction be issued forbidding the IDF's use of the procedure. The High Court granted the application, and the temporary injunction remains in effect.
Testimonies given to B'Tselem indicate that IDF soldiers have continued to use the "neighbor procedure." Following the numerous instances in which the IDF violated the court order, the human rights organizations filed a contempt of court application with the court, and requested the court to impose a fine on the state and order the state to pay punitive sums for violation of the temporary injunction.
http://www.btselem.org/human_shields/neighbor_procedure
Dahiya doctrine
31 October 2009
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
Dahiya doctrine is a proposed and approved defense strategy of Israel under which Israel finally realizes that Arabs should be accountable for their leaders acts[1] It is named after a Hizbullah stronghold in Beirut that Israel flattened from the air in the 34-day Second Lebanon War.
IDF Northern Command Chief Gadi Eisenkot expressed the doctrines premise as follows: What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. [...] We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. [...] This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.[2] There would be no mercy shown when it comes to hitting the national infrastructure of a state that, in practice, is controlled by Hizbullah In practical terms, the Palestinians in Gaza are all Khaled Mashaal, the Lebanese are all Nasrallah, and the Iranians are all Ahmadinejad.[3]
Gaza was also mentioned in this connection, too bad this strategy did not take hold immediately after the disengagement from Gaza and the first rocket barrages directed at the northern Negev mplementing the Dahiya strategy in Gaza would have made it clear to Hamas that we do not intend to hit them proportionally Arab civilians grumble about being punished because of their leaders, while fearing their leaders more than they fear us. We need to make the fear we sow among them greater.
Some sources, although characterized as pro-Israel warned against this policy, especially in the run-up to the 20082009 IsraelGaza conflict, claiming it would be disastrous, because the 2006 destruction of Dahiya had only made Hizbollah stronger.[4] In January 2009 after the ceasefire, the pro-Palestinian Electronic Intifada announced that Israels Dahiya Doctrine comes to Gaza.[5] where, after the bank of Hamas targets ran out in the first few days of fighting the bombardment continued against mosques, universities, government buildings, the courts, 25 schools, and several hospitals along with bridges, roads, 10 electricity generating stations, sewage lines, and 1,500 factories, workshops and shops.
Precedents
Elements of this policy have been seen before, perhaps most famously from General Moshe Dayan, Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother quoted by Martin Van Creveld, a professor at Israels Hebrew University in Sept 2003 who continued in his own words: We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under.[6] The BBC quotes Israeli commentators as saying that Israel has a new military doctrine: go nuts once and your enemies will fear to strike again.[7] with Ofer Shelah saying In the face of enemies who have opted for a strategy of attrition and attacking from a distance, Israel will present itself as a crazy country, the kind that will respond (albeit after a great deal of time) in a massive and unfettered assault, with no proportion to the amount of casualties it has endured.
References
Israel finally realizes that Arabs should be accountable for their leaders acts The Dahiya strategy, according to IDF Northern Command Chief Gadi Eisenkot. Interview in Yedioth Ahronoth. 10.06.08.
Report of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict (September 15, 2009). HUMAN RIGHTS IN PALESTINE AND OTHER OCCUPIED ARAB TERRITORIES. The Guardian. http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf. Retrieved 2009-09-15.
From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases Israel warns Hizbullah war would invite destruction, Maj.-Gen. Eisenkot tells Yedioth Ahronoth. 10.03.08
The Dahiya Strategy and Gaza: Unlessons of the Second Lebanon War will not stop the rocket attacks and it will help the enemy achieve its goals www.zionism-israel.com 17.11. 2008
Israels Dahiya Doctrine comes to Gaza Electronic Intifada, 20 January 2009
Quoted in The Observer Guardian, The War Game, a controversial view of the current crisis in the Middle East, 21 September 2003; the original interview appeared in the Dutch weekly magazine: Elsevier, 2002, no. 17, p. 52-53 (April 27th, 2002).
go nuts once and your enemies will fear to strike again BBC 13 March 2009.
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2009-10-31/dahiya-doctrine/
24 February 2010: Hamas report to UN shamefully evades responsibility
Published:
24 Feb 2010
On 3 February 2010, the Hamas government submitted a 52-page report to the UN in advance of the debate in the General Assembly on the report of the Goldstone Fact-finding Mission. The Hamas report discusses, among other things, the measures the government has taken to implement the mission's recommendations and the investigations it has carried out regarding breach of international law committed by its forces during Operation Cast Lead, and provides clarifications relating to attacks from within the Gaza Strip against civilians and civilian objects in Israel.
According to the Hamas government, its consistent position has been that, in accordance with international law and the principles of Islam, only military objects may be attacked and it is absolutely forbidden to attack civilians and civilian objects. Palestinian armed groups are also committed to this principle, the report states. However, it adds, since these groups are not an organized army with technologically advanced weapons, when a military target is determined, it is not possible to ensure that the fire will not go awry and strike civilians.
The Hamas government adds that the main objective of the rocket fire is political, and that the fire is a limited and modest response to Israeli aggression. The rocket fire, it claims, is intended to transmit a message that they intend to act to end the occupation and protect themselves. Also, it adds, there is a clear difference between rocket fire as an expression of resistance, which every weak side does in response to aggression, and control of the results of the launched rockets due to deficient technological capability.
These claims are baseless, both with respect to the facts and to the provisions of international humanitarian law.
First, the vast majority of attacks were intentionally aimed at civilian objects in Israel, with the declared purpose of striking them. Israelis living near Gaza suffered for many years from the ongoing rocket fire, and during that time members of Hamas and of other armed groups expressly stated that the rocket fire was intended to strike civilians. In addition, to the best of B'Tselem's knowledge, these communities and the areas adjacent to them did not contain legitimate military objects against which attacks could ostensibly be made.
Second, the armed groups' imprecise weapons and lack of advanced technological capability only aggravate the severity of their actions. The prohibition imposed by international humanitarian law does not apply only to attacks aimed at civilians, but also forbids the use of weapons that are insufficiently precise to distinguish between civilian objects and military objects. The use of such weapons is completely forbidden, even when the side using them has no alternative means.
Third, rocket fire that is intended only to transmit a political message and that is limited and modest also contravenes international humanitarian law and basic morality. For many years, Israelis in the area lived in constant fear, not knowing where the next attack would strike, which made their lives intolerable. Imposing terror on a civilian population is absolutely forbidden, and the claim that the firing was minimal and symbolic demonstrates the perpetrators' shameful disregard for human life.
The Hamas government has the obligation to conduct an effective and independent investigation to investigate the claims that armed Palestinian groups who operated in the Gaza Strip during the operation attacked Israeli civilians, and to prosecute the persons responsible for violation of international humanitarian law. The Hamas government must also investigate the claims that these groups harmed and endangered the lives of Palestinians, and prosecute everyone responsible for those acts.
http://www.btselem.org/israeli_civilians/20100224_hamas_report
shira
(30,109 posts)Every democracy would choose the latter option if presented with a similar choice. Although Israel goes to great efforts to reduce civilian casualties, the Hamas tactic is designed to maximize them. The international community and the media must understand this and begin to blame Hamas, rather than Israel, for the Palestinian civilians who are killed by Israeli rockets but whose deaths are clearly part of the Hamas tactic.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/hamas-tactic-require-isra_b_2159321.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I'm sure there are some but really you should post that in Good Reads or General Discussion too, it'll give you a feel for things here
shira
(30,109 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Azurnoir and I and most ofther posters here have made it pretty clear we understand Hamas is surely doing no favors for gazans.
You're not asking for more of that.
You're asking us to wash the blood of Palestinian civilians from Israel's hands, and pretend Hamas is the only culpable entity here.
And Azure is right. You really might want to cool the jets with your antisemitic neocon fuckweasel buddy Dershowitz there. He's not someone you want to be seen hanging out with in public.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2012, 10:09 AM - Edit history (1)
All you're willing to say is they're "surely doing no favors for gazans".
You realize that by not calling out Hamas for what they do, they take that as a green light to continue using hospitals, mosques, homes, and schools to store weapons and launch rockets from? They'll also continue to abuse children as militants and shields. It works. The "human right" community is allowing for it with their complete silence, so why stop?
The biggest problem I have with Israel's loudest critics who are reluctant to call things for what it is is that I believe their hatred of Israel is what prevents them from assigning a significant part of the blame to Hamas. It is THEY who need to put the blame exclusively on Israel. Their need to demonize and bash Israel is of utmost importance to them vs. actually helping Palestinians by condemning Hamas (for victimizing and collectively punishing them). This exposes them as phony illiberal supporters of Palestinians who are regressive rather than progressive.
=====
Let me ask this, since you won't admit what Hamas does either:
How culpable is Hamas for the deaths of most of their own civilians?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but it's not what you claim
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)there now do you understand that some of us read entire threads not just replies to ourselves?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)of course we're acknowledging that Hamas is using civilian areas as launch sites.
As I pointed out upthread though... blowing up those launch sites does fucking nothing to degrade the militants' capability. These aren't missile batteries or complex launchers. They're four-foot tripods. Made of rebar, or aluminum scrap, or whatever else is handy. But blowing them up seems to kill these people you are calling human shields as well.
Do I condemn Hamas for doing this? I've done so plenty before. But that's not what you want. You want me to absolve Israel of any culpability as well. You want me to dismiss these dead Palestinians as "pallywood," as you yourself do. You want me to pretend that, oh, it's okay that they died, because Israel thought it might achieve something by dropping that bomb.
shira
(30,109 posts)The UN, Human Rights bodies, and most NGO's deny Hamas is using human shields.
Therefore, Hamas is not culpable for victimizing their own population. It's all on Israel.
Don't you see something very wrong with that?
The only thing I can make of it is they hate Israel so much, they will not acknowledge human shields or call out Hamas for its warcrimes. To do so absolves Israel to a great degree (not completely). But that's unacceptable to them.
It's shameful. The UN, HR community, and NGO's that deny Hamas' warcrimes cannot be ever be forgiven for what they've done and continue to do. Note the irony: They're forcing Israel to care more for Gaza's civilians than they do. They're throwing Palestinian victims of Hamas under the bus, allowing Hamas carte blanche to keep committing those warcrimes and therefore they're supporting what Hamas does. Meanwhile, Israel is doing all they can to protect those civilians while trying to stop Hamas.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You might say Israel just loves 'em to death.
shira
(30,109 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Somehow, I can have interesting, reasonably mature discussions with DU's other reactionary anti-Palestinian posters. You, however... you remind me of a bad saturday morning cartoon. Lots of flashing primary colors and plenty of yelling, but no actual content.
The fact that I woke up with a pounding headache doesn't help.
So, tell you what. When my head feels less like a melon in a microwave, we'll try again Hopefully you can tone down hte "Angry Beavers" hijinks too.
shira
(30,109 posts)I'll wait until you feel better.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I'm sure...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that was not condemning him
musical_soul
(775 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)"@Nour_Samaha don't stay with media, go stay with a family. But maybe that was safe in Iraq. No place is safe in Gaza from Israeli strikes "
but thanks for justifying IDF killing a number of journalists
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 24, 2012, 05:46 PM - Edit history (2)
I suppose you figure that if they don't do it - and all you have to do is keep those eyes closed - the more you can then blame Israel exclusively.
Great idea!
Hamas gets to go on, no condemnation whatsoever, Palestinians continue to suffer under them...
But at least you can bash Israel.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and blame the ones who actually killed them , Hamas isn't innocent but neither is Israel
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)musical_soul
(775 posts)They do try to prevent civilian casualties, but what else should they do? Let the Hamas bomb them off the map? Nobody has came up with a solution for that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)kill them kill their children kill their women its okay and then justify that sentiment by claiming they want to kill us but the idea of negotiating never no except that it was done that is why there is a cease fire and it was SoS Clinton and Barack Obama that did it
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)will be voted on and in all likelihood will win, after that the Palestinian's will be allowed to bring Israel to the ICC/ICJ and that thought frightens Israels boosters here
Turbineguy
(37,365 posts)off those dead and maimed children.
shira
(30,109 posts)Note:
Human Rights Posers assure us there's no evidence of Hamas using human shields.