Israel's democracy myth

[Jefferson23]

February 13, 2013

Israel's attack of a Hezbollah convoy is more complicated than we think, writes Perry.



Back in 1993, just months before signing the Oslo Peace Accords with Yasser Arafat in Washington, then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was asked by a group of journalists which Arab leader he trusted the most. He didn't hesitate when he said: "Hafez Assad." The answer took some in the group by surprise - Rabin had not only never met Assad, he'd spurned an American suggestion the year before that concluding a peace agreement with Syria would be easier than concluding one with the Palestinians.

But Rabin was adamant. "Hafez Assad keeps his word," he explained and then, after a moment's hesitation, he added, "and he knows how to deal with Islamists." Rabin's matter-of-fact statement needed no further explanation, for everyone knew what he meant: nary a single shell had been fired from Syria into Israel since Assad had agreed to a ceasefire with Israel in the wake of the 1973 war - and when threatened with an uprising by Islamist groups in Hama in February 1982, he sent his younger brother Rifat into the city, along with 12,000 troops, to crush it. The resulting "Hama Massacre" levelled the city and took the lives of more than 20,000 Hama residents - and 1,000 of the regime's soldiers.

If Rabin had made his declaration in America, and in public, it might have become known as "the Rabin Doctrine" and extolled as a sanguine expression of "realpolitik" - that, given a choice, the Government of Israel not only prefers Arab dictators to Arab democracies, but finds dealing with Arab democracies (something it has not had to do until very recently) messy and unpredictable.

'Israel's Arab Spring problem'

From Israel's point of view, this makes perfect sense: the Rabin Doctrine not only keeps intact Israel's irksome claim to be "the only democracy in the Middle East" (updated, now, to "the only real democracy in the Middle East" - whatever that means), it makes Israel's neighbours pliable, which is just how Israeli leaders like them. Put another way, Israel found it commonly easy to deal with, say, an Egypt ruled by Hosni Mubarak because it believed what he believed: that the best place for an Islamist was in a jail cell - or swinging from a gallows.

in full: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/02/2013210102718996794.html

[King_David]

1. Aljazeera ? LOL

I think the NYT is more credible :

Palestine’s Democratic Deficit

By DAVID KEYES

Published: February 12, 2013


LAST week, a 26-year-old Palestinian activist, Anas Awwad, was sentenced in absentia by a court in Nablus, the West Bank, to one year in prison for “extending his tongue” against the Palestinian Authority’s president, Mahmoud Abbas, on Facebook. Thousands have joined a Facebook group to show their solidarity with Mr. Awwad, but the damage has been done. Free speech has been set back, and a chill sent throughout Palestinian society.

It should come as no surprise that the Palestinian Authority is cracking down on basic freedoms. From the top down, a culture of repression reigns supreme. President Abbas’s term ended four years ago. He has clung to power as an unelected autocrat for nearly half a decade. In November, a senior adviser to Mr. Abbas, Mohammad Shtayyeh, told me that Mr. Abbas had no desire to continue ruling, but that he simply could not leave because of the divisions in Palestinian society. Suppressing criticism by resorting to a 50-year-old Jordanian law — designed to punish critics of Jordan’s monarchy when it ruled over the West Bank — has not helped burnish the questionable democratic credentials Mr. Abbas so often claims when meeting Western leaders.

This is not the first time the Palestinian Authority has used antiquated laws to clamp down on Internet activists. Last year, the Palestinian blogger Jamal Abu Rihan was arrested for starting a Facebook campaign called “The People Want an End to Corruption.” Like Mr. Awwad, Mr. Rihan’s crime was “extending his tongue” against the Palestinian leadership. In April, the university lecturer Ismat Abdul-Khaleq was arrested for criticizing Mr. Abbas on Facebook. Days later, a journalist, Tarek Khamis, was detained for criticizing the Palestinian Authority’s treatment of Ms. Abdul-Khaleq. George Canawati, the director of a Bethlehem radio station, and the journalist Rami Samar were similarly detained for posting criticisms of the Palestinian Authority on Facebook


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/opinion/palestines-democratic-deficit.html?_r=1&

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

2. Speaking of lulz, you say the NYT is credible yet you lambast them in your OP here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113431312

I guess that the cherries are ready for the picking. I understand that you have some expertise in that field?

[Jefferson23]

3. The NYT's is more credible when it suits you, is what you meant to say.

Al Jazerra is too over your head anyway..best you stay away from OP's by Mark Perry.
Yet I am pleased to see you did not attempt to suggest the author had his facts wrong.

Have a swell day.

[King_David]

11. "Al Jazerra is too over your head "

Mature argument .

Ha ha

[Jefferson23]

15. It is a correct assessment, no other way to slice it. n/t

[leveymg]

51. Rabin was right: Syria is no democracy, and the opposition aren't democrats.

Netanyahu may have gotten his way in Syria -- read the 1996 document for regime change across the MidEast, A Clean Break, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm -- but the post-Assad reality may well be worse than the dictatorship it replaces as far as Israel's security is concerned.

[Mosby]

4. some pretty thick irony here

Last edited Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:24 AM - Edit history (2)

Considering that Perry wrote this for a news org that is owned by a multi-billionaire who is the relative of the scumbag dictator that controls Qatar. Why didn't he interview al thani about his thoughts on democracy? Cuz they would have cut his nuts off that's why.

Nice that the piece of shit dictators in the gulf have writers like Perry to dishonestly attack Israel by claiming that "they (the Israelis) don't like democracy for Arabs" while they themselves lord over their citizens, imprison them, stone them, hang them, rape their women, cut off shit, lock them up etc and laugh about it all the way to the bank.

Hahaha.

[Jefferson23]

5. Al Jazerra did all that, eh? You're lost.

[shira]

14. Perry's writings are pro-Islamist. Do you want to discuss the OP? n/t

[Jefferson23]

16. What does pro-Islam mean, shira?

[shira]

18. It means pro-Hamas, Hezbollah. Not pro-Muslim, as in secular, liberal type. n/t

[Jefferson23]

19. You don't say and where did you learn this meaning, shira? n/t

[shira]

40. I think you know what it means. Hamas and Hezbollah are examples, like the Taliban....

....Saudi regime, Ayatollahs, and Muslim Brotherhood. They are to moderate, secular, and liberal Muslims what the KKK is to moderate, secular, and liberal Christians.

If you disagree, then have at it.

My point still stands. Your OP, like many of the articles you post here, was written by someone who is, for lack of better words, pro-Islamist. Almost identical to Judith Butler of BDS who sees Hamas and Hezbollah as allies, being part of the global Left due to the fact they can be understood as anti-colonialist, anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist (anti-western) movements. IOW, your brand of Leftism.

[Jefferson23]

42. That's you alright, as you state, "for lack of a better word" but use it regardless.

You have no point, the KKK? What an absurd statement. But I will recall this post the next time you
lose your bearings as you did when you were asked what is pro-Islam and responded that it means Hamas etc.
because in your mind, Islamist is only specific to militant groups.

The links to direct quotes are all embedded within Perry's OP, you have links to indicate these remarks were not made
by said individuals..then post it. If not, you're wrong as typical of you and rely on childish commentary, i.e: "almost identical
to Butler of BDS...."

[shira]

43. Do you agree with Judith Butler about Hamas/Hezbollah being part of the global Left....

...as they are part of the "revolution" against anti-imperial, colonial, capitalist forces?

[Jefferson23]

45. The never ending utterly ridiculous questions.

Have a nice day.

[shira]

46. She and Omar Barghouti are BDS reps who were just at Brooklyn U....

Your kinda folks.

That was a yes/no question, BTW. If you think what Butler said was absurd, just say so. I asked because Hamas/Hezbollah are Islamist organizations that are considered part of the "global Left" family by some "respected" authorities within the pro-Palestinian movement.

Do you agree with Butler?

Yes or No?

[Jefferson23]

48. Shira, you need to recognize that you have deliberately dumped your responsibility

to address the OP by Perry. The one you wanted to discuss. You were asked to bring forth any links to refute those he used
supporting quotes from said individuals. You have not done so and have now moved to another screaming meme,
enjoy this party of yours without me.

I will add BDS is frightening to you; I find your reaction hilarious since they pose no substantial threat to Israel's
continuing occupation. Perhaps if Israel's government continues to ignore international law maybe they'll be able
to build international support, I don't know. They would also need to have a legal basis for Israel to not exist

My personal opinion of BDS is they're trying to bring an end to the occupation without violence, they have
every right to do this.

If they're not in line with 2 states and that seems to be the case that does not mean their objective is
antisemitic in nature or that they're proponents for war, as you falsely suggest.

They have a lofty goal imo, to say the least, but it is not my place to determine what is best for the Palestinians
and how they'll achieve peace and their rights. Not when the United States has not been an honest broker for
them, and not when Israel has continued to expand settlements..so no, you will not ever hear me condemn
BDS efforts to end the occupation.

Two states is realistic imo, most especially considering the ICJ advisory ruling for international support
on the legality questions. ALL of which Israel ignores.

[shira]

49. So lemme get this straight. You're for 2 states but also BDS...

Last edited Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Therefore, let's suppose the occupation ends and BDS is still motoring on for full RoR and 1-state.

When that happens, you'll start working against the BDS folks b/c you're for 2 states?

Trying to understand the mentality here. You're for BDS until the occupation is over. Only then will you dump BDS and do what....exactly?

=========

It's not Perry's quotes in the OP that concern me. It's his opinions.

[Jefferson23]

50. Perry's opinions are formulated from said events and statements made from the

individuals he quoted.

BDS should be supported, period, for the reasons I stated. There is no surplus of support/will be none internationally for
one state IF the occupation ends and the Palestinians do not end up with a bantustan. They must have
a viable state..they must have control of their borders, water reserves. There are close to 600 permanent barriers
and check points around the occupied West Bank, all this and more needs to end.

[sabbat hunter]

20. he didn't say pro islam

he said islamist. as in extremist.

[Jefferson23]

21. I know what she said..she said pro-Islamist, period.

She added no caveat..you're here to help her?

[sabbat hunter]

22. Islamist is generally given to mean

extremists, not all followers of Islam.

Islamist [ˈɪzləmɪst]
adj
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Islamist

and I am here to clarify when people's words are clearly being twisted.

[Jefferson23]

23. Well, that would be a very unfortunate and incorrect application.

Maybe shira will answer her own questions, at some point.

[sabbat hunter]

24. I gave you a clear definition

of Islamist

Pro Islamist does not equal pro Islam.

The definition is clear.

[Jefferson23]

25. Excuse me, you're speaking for close to a billion people who follow Islam?

The pro-Islamist meaning is as you say it is, interesting claim.

Maybe shira will respond, herself.

[sabbat hunter]

26. are you saying that

the given mainstream definition of islamist (as opposed to follower of islam) is wrong

Islamist does not equal follower of islam, but a follower of an extreme form of Islam.

1 billion people are followers of Islam, some of whom are Islamist.

[Jefferson23]

29. The given mainstream definition of pro- islamist? By whom? This is her word.

pro-Islamist, she stated. Her wording, not mine.

I think you have expressed yourself as having an opinion of what you believe is a correct term in the first place
and what you believe that term means. Your use of it is incorrect, whether with or without the pro.

[sabbat hunter]

33. read a newspaper

look around the internet.

It is a common everyday usage for extremists who happen to be followers of Islam

It is you who clearly does not know what the word Islamist means.

[Jefferson23]

34. Your advice is an indication of where you receive your poor and inadequate

information. Newspapers and the internet, a generalized review.

[sabbat hunter]

35. I also read books, magazines

Where else is there to get information?

what you are trying to do is make up a new definition of a generally accepted definition. Just like those who claim that Arabs cannot be anti-semitic because they are a Semite people, when clearly the generally accepted definition of anti-Semitic is anti-Jewish.

[Jefferson23]

36. BY WHOM are these terms accepted...answer: NOT BY those who follow Islam, not in the manner

as shira defined it...her words.

You're arrogant and incorrect..I suspect you know this to be true or you would not state such a desperate
association of nonsense with your " Just like those" associations.

When you googled pro-islamist to defend your friend, you know you came up empty.

*on edit for clarity.

[Mosby]

37. islamism

Islamism (Islam+-ism; Arabic: إسلام سياسي? Islām siyāsī, "Political Islam", or الإسلامية al-Islāmīyah) is a set of ideologies holding that "Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life".[1] Islamism is a controversial neologism, and definitions of it sometimes vary (see below). Leading Islamist thinkers emphasize the implementation of Sharia (Islamic law); of pan-Islamic political unity; and of the elimination of non-Muslim, particularly Western military, economic, political, social, or cultural influences in the Muslim world, which they believe to be incompatible with Islam.[2] Some observers suggest Islamism's tenets are less strict, and can be defined as a form of identity politics or "support for [Muslim] identity, authenticity, broader regionalism, revivalism, [and] revitalization of the community".[3]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism


Hezbollah:
Ideology Shia Islamism
Anti-imperialism[1][2][3]
Anti-Zionism

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah


The theological roots of Islamists/Islamism

There is probably no other theologian, medieval or otherwise, who has had as much influence on the modern radical Islamist movement than Ibn Taymiyyah (1268-1328). He may be quoted by people from a variety of religious positions, but it is among the most conservative and radical religious leaders that his voice carries the most weight.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_taymiyyah.htm

[Jefferson23]

38. And what?

You can read Mosby, so read the post in question which has yet to be answered by the poster who
wrote it.

I am sure everyone who witnesses their religious beliefs politicized and broadened to such a scope
as shira has done and who poorly calculated her use of it only to misrepresent the OP by Mark Perry
is thrilled with your selection of wiki as "proof" this term is a well known given mainstream accurate understanding
of the term pro-islamist. At least by some people, it seems.

Where she learned this meaning is likely evident from her other posts and links, such as palwatch. Googling the
term pro-islamist brings up other pernicious publications as well.

[sabbat hunter]

41. actually those terms are

used by those who follow Islam to define extremists.

Several years ago Recep Tayyip Erdogan denied he was an Islamist as he tried to distance himself from his past.(he is currently the PM of Turkey). Obviously he is still a Muslim but that does not equal Islamist by his own answers.


Stories from Arab news sources define Salafists as Islamists ie extremists.

So far you have not come up with any sources that currently define Islamists as anything but extremist followers of Islam.

[Jefferson23]

44. I need to come up with a source that does not equate Islamists with anything but

Last edited Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:49 AM - Edit history (1)

extreme followers?? Now that is rich but at least I now realize why you jumped in to defend shira.


What this is about is the poster's response to what she believes identifies Islamist's in general and it is a
false one..one she equates with the militant group such as Hamas. She is wrong about Hezbollah too but that's
another story.

Btw, Erdogan is not distancing himself from the term as you suggested, as it does not have the sole nor primary meaning
as your friend believes it does. When googling the term she used, pro-islamist, one will find websites like Daniel Pipes using
it in his descriptions.

At the AKP party congress, Erdogan once again sought to cement the role of the AKP not only as a party that has reshaped Turkish politics but also as a role model for regional democratic Islamist movements in the wake of the Arab Spring.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/30/world/europe/turkey-ruling-party

[shira]

47. Dan Pipes? Try Maryam Namazie, who writes a TON about the pro-Islamist Left...

Or is a communist like Namazie with a marxist viewpoint too rightwing for you?

[King_David]

52. You should start a petition

And send it to all the dictionary's and newspapers ... To change the meaning of words that are defined not to your liking .

Tell me how it goes .

Meanwhile until that happens people will continue to use the word "Islamist" in the correct context , that Shira did.

[Jefferson23]

53. Nonsense..there is no reputable source defining "pro-islamist", she knows it and so do you. n/t

[shira]

54. VIDEO: Maryam Namazie: The pro-Islamist Left is siding with the oppressor

&feature=player_embedded

[Jefferson23]

55. Another lame attempt to whitewash your initial response...have fun.

palwatch and MEMRI and all your other hideous sources..carry on.

[shira]

56. Namazie is a hideous source? She's an expert on the pro-Islamist Left. n/t

[Jefferson23]

57. YOUR post's..but you're somewhat amusing at this point.

Carry on, shira..you know you will.

[King_David]

58. I'm sure I am not the only one puzzled ,

What on earth are you going on about in this thread and why would you persist when everyone on both sides can see that you have bungled this one.

[Jefferson23]

59. Everyone on both sides..hmm. No.

That you're perpetually puzzled is a common practice of yours, carry on.

[King_David]

60. Good reply.

You really scored points there.

Kol Hakavod !

[delrem]

27. That's part of the meaning given at that site.

The site also explains a somewhat broader contextual usage:

Noun 1. Islamist - a scholar who knowledgeable in Islamic studies
bookman, scholar, scholarly person, student - a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines
2. Islamist - an orthodox Muslim
Islam, Muslimism - the civilization of Muslims collectively which is governed by the Muslim religion; "Islam is predominant in northern Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan, and Indonesia"
Moslem, Muslim - a believer in or follower of Islam

[sabbat hunter]

28. those are the

rarer and dated meanings

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Islamist

[Jefferson23]

30. Who knows, maybe shira will come back and respond to her own questions. n/t

on edit, typo.

[delrem]

31. well, don't expect to be enlightened.

[Jefferson23]

32. hee hee

[Jefferson23]

6. Israel poses a serious dilemma for Europe's Jews

Are Israel's actions truly protecting the Jewish people? Or is it forcing Jews outside Israel to defend a state that has abandoned the post-war values that define Europe and the West, values that lie at the heart of their own legitimacy as Jews in democratic countries?

By Diana Pinto| 09:18 14.02.13 |

Is Europe ganging up on Israel, and by doing so, proving the return - in the view of most Israelis, many Jews and most official Jewish organizations - of its eternal anti-Semitism? Or is it Israel that has abandoned the post-war values that defined Europe and the West in the wake of World War II and the Holocaust?

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-poses-a-serious-dilemma-for-europe-s-jews.premium-1.503489

[shira]

7. I'd go with the views of most Israelis, many Jews and most official Jewish orgs....

The return of.... anti-semitism.

[Jefferson23]

8. The world is shocked, just shocked, I'm sure...with your choice. n/t

[shira]

9. Again I go with "most Israelis, most Jewish organizations, many Jews...." n/t

[Jefferson23]

10. In your mind a majority consensus equates as evidence of "truth"...no surpises from you. n/t

[King_David]

12. Majority consensus

Never did mean anything in history when it comes to the Jewish People.

The world has always had a majority consensus toward Bnai Israel and now the state of Israel which not coincidently is The Jewish State.

[shira]

13. What did the majority non-Jewish census mean for Jews during WW2? n/t

[Jefferson23]

17. It means the same as it did in WWII?

That is some stronghold you're counting on, an absurd one, but that is not surprising.