Jewish and Arab Refugees Must be Compared

[Mosby]

A few weeks ago the Al-Jazeera Arabic channel carried a report on starving Palestinian refugees in a Syrian camp. In a sequence that must have slipped the editor's notice, an elderly man moaned in desperation to the camera: "Take us to the Jews. They will feed us!"

In that unguarded moment, two things were revealed: first -- Palestinian refugees are being deprived of a humanitarian solution to their plight. Second -- Arabs know full well that Israelis look after their own -- and not only their own -- but try and help others.

Nowhere is the contrast more stark than in the treatment of the two sets of refugees which arose out of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. A fair proportion of the 711,000 Arab refugees were left to languish -- and now starve -- in refugee camps as a longstanding reproach to Israel. Some 850,000 Jewish refugees were ultimately absorbed and given full citizens' rights in Israel and the West.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lyn-julius/jewish-and-arab-refugees-_b_5082797.html

[shaayecanaan]

1. Bear in mind...

I searched for the phrase "Take us to the Jews! They will feed us!" in both English and Arabic and could find nothing. There is no reference to the phrase other than this article and blog posts reproducing it.

It seems ridiculous that the author is saying that this somehow slipped past the editors. Its not really the sort of thing that you would forget, if it did happen.

There is no reference to the program, date or time. I also have a hard time believing that Lyn Julius, leader of a UK Jewish organisation, likes to while away the hours watching Al Jazeera's Arabic channel.

[Scootaloo]

2. This is a nonsense argument

The Arab refugees are refugees because Israel purged them and refuses to acknowledge their basic human rights - It even very pointedly made it clear that Israel would rather they be butchered by Syrian cannibals than even let them into the west bank. It is Israel that is denying the Palestinian refugees a solution, and it has been for over sixty years.

Additionally, the Jewish refugees - most were nothing of the sort, instead men and women who opted for emigration to Palestine and later Israel but hey, semantics - sought citizenship in Israel of their own accord. Each Palestinian has the same right in their own host nations - Only Lebanon denies them when they seek it. Most simply do not seek it, however.

If you - and the Israelis - are so heartbroken over the condition of Palestinian refugees, then I would suggest lobbying the government of Israel to recognize their rights, and organize for the return of these refugees to their rightful homeland.

But of course neither you nor the Israelis are the least bit concerned.

[Fozzledick]

3. Yes, yes that is a nonsense argument.

I just love it when things are accurately self-labeled the way your post is. It's a real thing for me.

My all-time favorite is Michael Jackson's "Bad" album. Says it all in just one word.

[Scootaloo]

5. Excellent counter-argument

No doubt you were the best man on your school's debate team.

Pity that you seem to have been home schooled, though.

[Fozzledick]

6. Hey, some things are just too obvious to ignore.

[Scootaloo]

7. I suppose I can't complain about snarky zings, really

[shaayecanaan]

4. 40% of Arab Jews came from Morocco...

Even Standwithus admits that no property confiscations were carried out in Morocco. There are properties in Morocco owned by Jewish absentee landlords even today:-

https://www.standwithus.com/booklets/Refugees_US/files/refugee%20brochure%20us_3_2013.pdf

The official policy in Morocco was to try and prevent Jews from leaving for Israel. Many Moroccan Jews resent how difficult it was to obtain exit visas from Morocco. Sure, but you can't simultaneously claim that you were expelled and that the government was trying to prevent you from leaving. The two are mutually exclusive.

You can't also claim any comparison between Jews who may have had to sell property when they left, and Palestinians who were simply kicked off their property without any compensation whatsoever. The completely dishonest thing about organisations such as Harif is that they list Moroccan Jews as refugees even if they left of their own accord and their property as having been confiscated even if it was sold.

[Shaktimaan]

8. Not so much

The Arab refugees are refugees because Israel purged them and refuses to acknowledge their basic human rights

They became refugees because Israel ethically cleansed them in the 40s. They're still refugees now because no one at all cares about their rights or well being, and keeping them disenfranchised in refugee camps has political benefits while granting them citizenship (actual helping) brings only problems. Not to mention it's illegal. The Arab League hasn't allowed Palestinians to gain citizenship in any member state since the 50s.

Each Palestinian has the same right in their own host nations - Only Lebanon denies them when they seek it. Most simply do not seek it, however.

They sadly don't have that right though. If they did then we'd surely see at least some of them doing it.

are so heartbroken over the condition of Palestinian refugees, then I would suggest lobbying the government of Israel to recognize their rights, and organize for the return of these refugees to their rightful homeland.

Why not just press the states where they've been actually living for decades to stop brutally oppressing them, allow them equal rights and opportunities, and grant everyone born there citizenship.

You know, like Israel treats it's Palestinian citizens. Which is admittedly far from an exemplary model of equality itself. But it's a functional one at least.

[Scootaloo]

9. As usual, you're completely wrong

They became refugees because Israel ethically cleansed them in the 40s.

Well okay, maybe not completely wrong. Glad to see you finally picked up a book, though!

They're still refugees now because no one at all cares about their rights or well being, and keeping them disenfranchised in refugee camps has political benefits while granting them citizenship (actual helping) brings only problems.

You really have no clue how it works, I see.

1) There are no "political benefits" to refugees. They're expensive, even with a minimum of care. As Jordan has discovered, they can be politically destabilizing. Refugees are an obligation for a nation, not a privilege. Your argument is based on the same old Racist Zionist bullshit of evil scheming Arabs out to get you that it has ALWAYS been.

2) A host nation can only offer a path to citizenship for refugees. It can't actually say "Okay, you're all citizens of this state now whether you like it or not." It can extend them the benefits of citizenship, but it is up to them to actually take up the path to full citizenship. This is because once a refugee accepts another nation's citizenship, they case being a refugee... Which is of course why you keep up with this fantasy of unilateral granting of citizenship.

Not to mention it's illegal. The Arab League hasn't allowed Palestinians to gain citizenship in any member state since the 50s.

Except for every single Arab League state except Lebanon. Kuwait also revoked Palestinian citizenships after the first gulf war, so i guess we can count that shitty little emirate with Lebanon.

Do you know why Lebanon refuses to grant Palestinians a path towards citizenship? Same reason Israel refuses to allow their return - ethnic politics. Since you support Israel's refusal in all cases, shouldn't you also support lebanon's?

They sadly don't have that right though. If they did then we'd surely see at least some of them doing it.

They do, Shaktimaan. Are you expecting a news alert for every individual Palestinian who seeks citizenship in a host nation or something?

Why not just press the states where they've been actually living for decades to stop brutally oppressing them, allow them equal rights and opportunities, and grant everyone born there citizenship.

For reasons I've already answered.

You know, like Israel treats it's Palestinian citizens. Which is admittedly far from an exemplary model of equality itself. But it's a functional one at least.

Even Lebanon doesn't plow down homes, and claim that reporting on the Lebanese military killing Palestinians is "incitement."

[Shaktimaan]

10. Sure.

1) There are no "political benefits" to refugees. They're expensive, even with a minimum of care.

Refugees get aid. Citizens do not. Refugees are denied access to resources like healthcare, education and jobs. Citizens are not. Ergo, making refugees into citizens costs more money than just putting them into camps.

As Jordan has discovered, they can be politically destabilizing. Refugees are an obligation for a nation, not a privilege. Your argument is based on the same old Racist Zionist bullshit of evil scheming Arabs out to get you that it has ALWAYS been.

I said there are advantages to keeping them disenfranchised. Obviously, if there weren't then the Arab league wouldn't have instructed its members to deny palestinian refugees citizenship. Your example uses Jordan, the only state to grant refugees citizenship. So it actually supports my statement, that offering citizenship brings risks that states try to mitigate by marginalizing their refugee population.

Btw. Jordan's the only state besides Israel to offer palestinian refugees citizenship in the Middle East. Kuwait never granted citizenship, or offered a path or anything.

A host nation can only offer a path to citizenship for refugees. It can't actually say "Okay, you're all citizens of this state now whether you like it or not."

Like Jordan did, you mean?

It can extend them the benefits of citizenship, but it is up to them to actually take up the path to full citizenship. This is because once a refugee accepts another nation's citizenship, they case being a refugee...

Palestinian refugees can hold citizenship without losing refugee status under UNRWA policies.

Which is of course why you keep up with this fantasy of unilateral granting of citizenship.

What's the reason now that you've learned your motive doesn't apply?

Do you know why Lebanon refuses to grant Palestinians a path towards citizenship? Same reason Israel refuses to allow their return - ethnic politics. Since you support Israel's refusal in all cases, shouldn't you also support lebanon's?

Except Israel DOES grant automatic citizenship to everyone born there, regardless of ethnicity. And mandates equality under the law regardless of ethnicity. Unlike Lebanon, where discrimination is not merely legal but required by law.

They do, Shaktimaan. Are you expecting a news alert for every individual Palestinian who seeks citizenship in a host nation or something?

Nope. But there'd certainly be one if any of them got it.

Even Lebanon doesn't plow down homes, and claim that reporting on the Lebanese military killing Palestinians is "incitement."

Actually they do. But that argument is weak regardless.

Glad to see you finally picked up a book, though!

That's funny.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. How about the refugees choose where they want to live?

If they choose Israel, Palestine, or the state they're residing in, that's great, don't you agree? Or don't you think they should be allowed the option of choosing Israel?

You know, like Israel treats it's Palestinian citizens. Which is admittedly far from an exemplary model of equality itself. But it's a functional one at least.

Functional discrimination? I guess discrimination against other minority groups in the past could just as easily be described as functional as well. I was just reading about residents of Israel who came from the West Bank and are married to Israelis who are refused citizenship because they're Palestinians. Come from another country, marry an Israeli, and you get citizenship, but not Palestinians. That's just one of the many cases of discrimination against Arabs and Israeli-Arabs in Israel...

[Shaktimaan]

12. Why doesn't everyone just choose where they live?

If they choose Israel, Palestine, or the state they're residing in, that's great, don't you agree? Or don't you think they should be

Well no. I don't think it's fair to expect Israel to absorb both the entirety of Jewish refugees from Arab lands and also the Arab refugees from the same conflict. Historically the victims of population exchanges, like the one following Indian independent left each country to absorb the refugees who fled there. Especially since the vast majority of the refugees were born and have lived their entire lives in other states that refuse them citizenship solely because they are of palestinian descent. I'd like to see Palestine offer a ror to these refugees but I also think their home states where they were born has an obligation to offer them citizenship too.

Functional discrimination? I guess discrimination against other minority groups in the past could just as easily be described as functional as well.

Why in the past? I was comparing Israel to other western states in the present day. Or do aboriginal people not face any discrimination anymore? The issue certainly persists in America.

That's just one of the many cases of discrimination against Arabs and Israeli-Arabs in Israel.

The law you're citing is actually really controversial and has garnered a lot of opposition in Israel. It was only very narrowly upheld in their Supreme Court. That said, it was passed during the intifada following two suicide bombings that were either perpetrated or aided by Palestinians who entered Israel as a spouse. Considering the state of violent affairs that exists between the two nations it isn't surprising that a law like that was enacted.

Nor does it discriminate against Arabs. It's only Palestinians who are restricted from getting citizenship this way. Not Arabs from other states.

Personally I'm very much against this law. I think it's fucked up. But it isn't really a departure from what you'd expect from any other country under similar circumstances.

The discrimination I was talking about is primarily exacted via economic or infrastructural ways. Not by having laws that directly discriminate against palestinian citizens. In every case I've heard of Israeli courts have held that it's illegal to openly discriminate against Arab Israelis. The discrimination they face is usually of the subtler variety seen in all countries by their poorer minorities.