"Lesson of this war: The Jews will defend themselves even if it means killing children.

[King_David]

"Lesson of this war: The Jews will defend themselves even if it means killing children. Just like every warring nation in history."

-----snip-____

Lozowick responded. Here’s his note in full:

1. The Jews: It is an objective and implacable fact that Zionism is the largest and most significant Jewish project in at least 2,000 years, probably more. There are non-Jews who are Israeli citizens, there are Jews who intensely dislike Zionism, there are even a handful of anti-Zionist Jews in Israel. None of these facts can change the fundamental truth: in Zionism the Jews set out to re-create a national existence on the political playing field, in their ancestral homeland, and Israel is its expression, or outcome, or whatever you wish to call it. The fact that about 50% of the world’s Jews live in Israel strengthens this, (the proportion will soon tip over to more than 50%), and the fact that a majority of self-identifying Jews among the non-Israelis are Zionists, bolsters its strength, but doesn’t change it. You can’t have Jews pining for Israel over millennia and then going there, and not have it be the most important development in all those millennia.

You can rail against this for every remaining day of your life (until 120, as we Jews say), and it still won’t make the slightest difference, not even if you gather around you thousands or tens of thousands of like-minded American Jews. I think it was Abe Lincoln who once said in court something about the strength of a fart in a blizzard or some such. Live with it, Phil, because there’s nothing you can do to change it. Nothing.

(Apropos numbers: there were more Jews at the funeral of Max Steinberg last month, which I blogged a bit about, than all the committed Mondoweis Jews together, and it was just one funeral).

.... More at :

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/themselves-killing-children.html

[King_David]

1. More

2. Will defend themselves: Look, I know you’re convinced Israel is the once and always, perpetual aggressor. Of course this doesn’t explain how if we’re such agressors the Palestinians keep multiplying and acquiring new assets such as the PA, parts of WB, all of Gaza, international standing etc etc. We must be really really bad at getting our job done. But as we both know, you and I can’t agree on the basic facts of this point, so let’s leave it as I said: A majority of the Jews worldwide and a total majority in Israel know we’re defending ourselves from enemies who would eagerly destroy us if they had the power, just as happened in the past. (Lots of non-Jews agree with us, by the way, either because we’ve got them under our thumb as you see it, or because it’s a simple fact, as I see it).

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/themselves-killing-children.html

[King_David]

2. More :

3. Even if it means killing: My PhD was about Nazis, and I know more about them than most people, so Godwin’s Law doesn’t apply to me. I can speak about Nazis as a scholar, not a demagogue. So here’s a thought experiment. Say that in order to end Nazism you had to kill 70,000 (not a few hundred) innocent, non-German civilians, Frenchmen, say. Would that be defensible? 70,000 dead French civilians, all innocent, many children, to end Nazism and as a by-product also end the Holocaust? Would that be moral? Permissible? Defendable in some later discussion? I ask because it’s not a thought experiment, it’s what the USA and UK did in 1944 as they went through France so as to destroy Nazism in Germany. Some goals, my friend, justify even horrible side effects, or collateral damage, or whatever you wish to call it. The reason being that the alternative, of allowing Nazism to stay in place, would hvae been far worse.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/themselves-killing-children.html

[King_David]

3. Even more at the link nt

[Jefferson23]

4. You changed the title of the OP, why is that? n/t

[King_David]

5. I wanted to print the letter, but fixed it.

[Jefferson23]

6. You can post the letter without changing the title of the OP.

I don't know what you mean by, fixed it.

[King_David]

7. The OP title matches the link.

[Jefferson23]

8. No, it doesn't. Mondoweiss sets the title. You may not like the title, but that is another matter.

On edit, I see you corrected it, for the most part...thanks.

[King_David]

16. NP

[DanTex]

9. Umm... "The Jews"? How about "Israel will defend itself".

I'm definitely disgusted with the killing of children in Gaza, but I certainly don't blame "The Jews" for it. We're talking about Israeli military policy.

[King_David]

10. Read the whole post at Mondoweiss

That point is addressed :

Weiss:
And secondly, you omit me in your declaration of what “The Jews” do. I’m a Jew and I don’t want to be part of a collective that makes these types of determinations. And I feel great concern about having anyone — even the distinguished state archivist of a “warring nation” — announce to my non Jewish neighbors how many children I need to kill to keep my nation going. It’s actually a kind of blood libel– again from a distinguished state archivist.

Lotzick:
1. The Jews: It is an objective and implacable fact that Zionism is the largest and most significant Jewish project in at least 2,000 years, probably more. There are non-Jews who are Israeli citizens, there are Jews who intensely dislike Zionism, there are even a handful of anti-Zionist Jews in Israel. None of these facts can change the fundamental truth: in Zionism the Jews set out to re-create a national existence on the political playing field, in their ancestral homeland, and Israel is its expression, or outcome, or whatever you wish to call it. The fact that about 50% of the world’s Jews live in Israel strengthens this, (the proportion will soon tip over to more than 50%), and the fact that a majority of self-identifying Jews among the non-Israelis are Zionists, bolsters its strength, but doesn’t change it. You can’t have Jews pining for Israel over millennia and then going there, and not have it be the most important development in all those millennia.

You can rail against this for every remaining day of your life (until 120, as we Jews say), and it still won’t make the slightest difference, not even if you gather around you thousands or tens of thousands of like-minded American Jews. I think it was Abe Lincoln who once said in court something about the strength of a fart in a blizzard or some such. Live with it, Phil, because there’s nothing you can do to change it. Nothing.

(Apropos numbers: there were more Jews at the funeral of Max Steinberg last month, which I blogged a bit about, than all the committed Mondoweis Jews together, and it was just one funeral).


http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/themselves-killing-children.html

[DanTex]

11. Yeah, he's wrong. Blaming "The Jews" for Israel's war crimes is incorrect.

As is apologizing for them in the name of "The Jews". "The Jews" have nothing to apologize for, just like "the Muslims" don't need to apologize for 9-11.

[shira]

39. The Jews are Hamas' target for destruction, not Israel's Arabs.

Israel's Jews are constantly criticized, not Israel's Arabs in the Knesset.

The Jewish state's actions are compared to Nazi atrocities during the Holocaust. The reason is because JEWS are involved, not merely Israelis. Calling them Zionists fools no one.

[azurnoir]

12. Tell us do you agree with Lozowick's assessment?

do you agree that even if it means killing children if it's in the name of self defense it's okay?

[King_David]

13. I think he humbled Weiss very nicely. nt

[azurnoir]

14. still do you personally agree? does he speak for you?

not to mention "the Jews" I guess

[shira]

40. I agree with Lozowick. n/t

[4commonsense]

15. killing children??

Let us get our facts straight...
Israel has every right to defend itself. It is the terrorist group Hamas that's responsible for the killing of children!
While Israel tries to avoid killing innocent civilians and children, and is ALSO the only country who drops fliers to warn civilians of upcoming air strikes, Hamas uses schools as designated weapon spots. They hide behind children, using them (and other civilians) as shields!
While Israel has concern for the civilians, Hamas does not. What do you suggest? Should Israel just sit back and allow themselves to be obliterated?! Common sense speaks "NOT!"
While Israel does it's best to avoid targeting civilians, Hamas is making it impossible!

And, Hamas then wants to gripe and complain about the loss of civilian lives? Hamas doesn't give a crap! They only care about their twisted agendas! They intentionally hide amongst human shields, and then feign anger over the lives lost. Unbelievable!

Who is the first to strike? Hours before the truce for a cease-fire ends? While Israel wants peace, Hamas won't let up.

How dare people protest in the streets against Israel?! Where is the frickin logic?? When a country is being relentlessly bombed and persecuted, common sense is to defend itself. What other choice does a country have?
America would do the same, and while we would likewise try not to target civilians, it would not be our fault if Hamas caused casualties by their continual use of 'human shields.'

Israel's intention is to destroy targets that represent a dire threat. NOT to murder innocent civilians!
They have every right to defend themselves- including their OWN children...

Does Hamas give a damn about civilian casualties? NO! Their agenda is to wipe Israel off the map.
Let us place the blame upon who it belongs.

[leftynyc]

17. If hamas cared about the children of Gaza

They wouldn't have broken every single ceasefire. They wouldn't have spent hundreds of millions of dollars buying weapons and building tunnels - they'd be building schools and hospitals or perhaps bomb shelters.

[King_David]

18. Hamas could even have used those tunnels

Last edited Thu Aug 21, 2014, 07:35 AM - Edit history (1)

As bomb shelters . They were already built.

[leftynyc]

20. True enough

Has anyone bothered to ask them, or themselves, why they didnt?

[azurnoir]

22. used the tunnels as bomb shelters? but Israel was targeting the tunnels for destruction

but it makes for a small exercise in critical reasoning

[King_David]

23. Not when Hamas started this whole war

And Israel accepted the cease fore and Hamas refused.

They weren't interested in getting their people to tunnels they built which could easily have been used as bomb shelters.

The destruction of tunnels only occurred after the ground invasion started.

This is all on Hamas . Disgusting .

They had a chance of avoiding it all and they rejected a cease fire and then never even allowed their people the protection the tunnels could of afforded Palestinian civilians .

[azurnoir]

24. still making excuses for more than 400 dead children?

regardless of what Hamas did that does not give Israel carte blanche to kill civilians and we were told Israel was targeting tunnels are you now admitting that was not the case?

Not when Hamas started this whole war

And Israel accepted the cease fore and Hamas refused.

They weren't interested in getting their people to tunnels they built which could easily have been used as bomb shelters.

The destruction of tunnels only occurred after the ground invasion started.

This is all on Hamas . Disgusting .

They had a chance of avoiding it all and they rejected a cease fire and then never even allowed their people the protection the tunnels could of afforded Palestinian civilians .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113477732#post23

[King_David]

25. No excuses

Hamas bears the brunt of responsibility for those dead children .

The number your using is inaccurate as per BBC , NYT and other media reports .Hamas has supplied the data and therefore very likely not accurate .

[azurnoir]

26. first not excuses but justification? now denial? of dead children

if I truly hated Israel I could not have asked for better myself as it stands such proclamations are saddening

[DanTex]

27. At least the nutcase you quote in the OP takes responsibility for killing of children.

He claims it's OK because of "self-defense", which is at least more honest than trying to blame someone other than the ones who actually did the killing.

[King_David]

28. Yea ?

So what should Israel have done to stop the rockets and tunnels .

Withdrawal of every single Jew from Gaza didn't work .

Just allow massive terrorist invasion and attack may be acceptable to USA observers but not those who live there.

Any other ideas?

Weiss is a nutcase ? Lots of people would agree .

[DanTex]

29. Well, not massacring civilians and destroying thousands of homes and infrastructure, for starters.

Maybe end the brutal occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza, while you're at it. I highly doubt that killing civilians in Gaza actually makes Israel safer, given that it's all but certain to create more sympathy for terrorists. And, more to the point, "what else should we do" is not an excuse for committing war crimes.

It's interesting, though, the credence that defenders of Israel give to the proclamations from IDF and Likud that the Gaza massacre was "the only option." I mean, if anyone on DU responded to criticism of torture or Gitmo by saying "what else are we supposed to do, Dick Cheney says that we need to do this to be safe", they'd be laughed off the board. But somehow when it's Netanyahu, no matter how many children are killed, or how many human rights groups call Israel's actions criminal, it's still "the only option".

It's also curious that Israel is preventing human rights groups like Amnesty International and HRW from entering Gaza to examine evidence of war crimes. And that the US is threatening to block any UN investigation of the Gaza invasion. After all, if it was really legitimate self-defense, if there were really no other way to stop a "massive terrorist invasion", then why keep everything secret rather than share information? How about some independent assessments?

Sorry, but I don't for a second believe that massacring children by the hundreds is the only choice available for Israel's survival.

[King_David]

31. Read all that post and never saw

an answer on what could be done .


http://www.democraticunderground.com/113477267

Cheers

[DanTex]

32. Umm, no, you didn't read it. Don't massacre civilians and commit war crimes.

That's what can be done.

I can also tell you what Charles Manson should have done, if you're interested.

But I get why you want to ignore the rest of my post. When you're defending the massacre of children, best to keep your head in the sand.

[shira]

41. You didn't answer. What can Israel do MILITARILY to defend against Hamas?

If you believe nothing, then say so.

Just state clearly for the record that Israelis have no right to defend themselves militarily from Hamas fascists. If that's what you believe. If you don't believe that, then be clear as to what Israel's IDF and IAF can legitimately do in response.

Thanks.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

30. You're still trying to justify the deaths

of thousands of innocent people...children and blaming it on others.

[shira]

42. No, he believes Jews have a right to defend themselves from genocidal fascists like Hamas. n/t

[oberliner]

19. "Say that in order to end Nazism ..."

I'm sorry but everyone just needs to stop with the Nazi comparisons. They are not valid here.

[parkia00]

21. If you agree with that excuse...

than you will also agree that anyone fighting against Israel also posses the same justification to behave in the same manner because they view they too are defending themselves from their enemy. If you don't, then you are nothing more then a hypocrite. It's a bit messy eh?

[rateyes]

33. That is, perhaps, the most offensive load

of bullshit I have ever read.

[4commonsense]

34. So true

I agree. Truly a load of bullshit.
If it weren't so offensively ignorant, I might've fallen out of my chair in a fit of wild laughter!

How could anyone compare a terrorist group's need to defend itself to the need Israel has in defending itself?! Seems as though some people just don't get what terrorism is all about.

They are warring with Israel because they want this country wiped off the map- not because Israel has committed some terrible offense against them. Hamas started this conflict.

I'm not Jewish, nor am I an Israeli citizen. But, I hope and pray for the protection of Israel, and for the complete and utter destruction of all terrorist groups. Terrorist groups do not play fair. Trying to reason with these types of groups, where normal logic is dead, does not pay off!

[rateyes]

38. While you are praying for the protection of Israel, I will pray

for the protection of Palestine and her innocent children from the war crimes committed by Israel.

[faisal akbar]

35. why

why, must Israel feel such compulsion to kill the children?

[4commonsense]

37. Are you kidding?!

Please tell me which rock you're living under so that I may avoid it.

Where do you get this twisted information? Who's flooding your mind with this kind of B.S.?

Your blame is misdirected.
I suggest that you do some homework, and dig up the facts on this terrorist group called Hamas. Hopefully, the light of truth will awaken you to what's really going on!