Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumHomes of Palestinians accused of ramming pedestrians to be demolished
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/palestinians-pedestrians-demolishedJERUSALEM (Ma‘an) 7 Nov — Israeli forces and members of the Israeli municipality on Friday raided the homes of Palestinians killed after they drove their cars into pedestrians in in order to prepare their families’ homes for demolition. The home raids came hours after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that the cabinet had approved a decision to demolish the homes of three individuals involved in such attacks since August, in a move sure to inflame popular anger among Palestinians. Israeli forces raided the home of Muhammad Jaabis, 21, in the Jabal al-Mukabbir village of East Jerusalem, where his brother Shaker told Ma‘an that Israeli authorities had taken measurements of his family’s home from the inside and outside, while going up to the roof and drawing maps of the house without informing the family of the reasons. Jaabis was shot by Israeli police more than 25 times on August 4, who said he deliberately ran into an Israeli bus while driving a bulldozer on a busy Jerusalem street. Israeli forces also raided the house of Ibrahim al-Akkari, who was killed Wednesday after he rammed pedestrians with his car in Jerusalem, killing two. In that house, the police detained all family members and kept them in one room as they drew maps of the house and took measurements of the house and its yard. Last week, Israeli authorities also took pictures of the house of Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi, who ran over pedestrians in Jerusalem on Oct. 22, killing one. Al-Shaludi’s mother said that Israeli forces did not raid the house at the time, but took pictures. The house is located in the al-Bustan neighborhood in Silwan.
So when Israelis kill Palestinians do they get the same treatment: destruction of their family home?
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PDJane
(10,103 posts)Two little girls get rammed by the settlers, one is dead.....that's a regrettable accident. Settlers do this on a regular basis.
An ad for a car shows a car ramming into two Palestinian children, and it's celebrated. It receives an award.
http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/subaru-car-ad-in-israel-shows-%E2%80%9Cpower%E2%80%9D-by-running-over-palestinian-children/
Why are we allowing a second, more permanent holocaust? We are sitting by, giving Israel everything she wants, while she kills and suppresses a people in order to steal their land. It's obscene.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
And yet team Hasbara lives for this kind of obscenity.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Literally nothing, not one fact, in your link was true. The fact that you think that the ad shown was a real Subaru ad demonstrates an incredible willingness to believe just about any anti Israel propaganda, no matter how absurd.
Video of the whole event...
http://m.
Enjoy your mindless hate fest.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)and I saw the ad, which was obscene.
That is hasbara, and you are another troll. I have seen what Israel does, and the propaganda can't hide it. I don't hate Israelis, but I do understand that you can't fix genocide by creating another one......especially on a land that you have no ties to.
The bible is not history, religion is not a reason, and this whole thing is obscene. Moreover, the destruction of these people's homes, leaving them without shelter during the winter season and beyond is disgusting. That tape can't cover up the damage being inflicted by Israel on an unarmed and defenseless people. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/19/1337677/--Israeli-Settler-Ran-Over-Two-Palestinian-Girls#, http://stopwar.org.uk/news/what-value-does-the-media-give-to-a-child-s-life-not-much-if-you-are-palestinian
Shame on you.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Does anyone see anything problematic with this comment?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)The archaeological record doesn't support the biblical view.
One more time, the bible is not history, and the actions of the IDF are simply not justified in any way by that record.
shira
(30,109 posts)The Jews are indigenous to the land. We share the same history, culture, religion, traditions, blood quantum, and language as our ancestors of over 2000 years ago when they were there.
You have a problem with an indigenous people on their ancestral land and that's an extreme rightwing POV.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Because then you saw an Israeli being attacked by a group of Palestinian children that he was trying to avoid, NOT an Israeli piurposefully running down children.
and I saw the ad, which was obscene.
You saw a fake ad that someone photoshopped together? Wow. You also thought it was real, which means you don't have too much going on in the critical thinking department. Regarding it being obscene...., um, who cares? It's not real. You haven't grasped that fact yet, have you?
That is hasbara
What is hasbara? The full, unedited tape? Or the fake ad someone put together? I'm not sure you know what Hasbara is.
and you are another troll.
Uh-huh. So I'm a troll for pointing out the obvious truth, while you swallow whatever crazy propaganda any lunatic dreams up?
I do understand that you can't fix genocide by creating another one
You don't seem to know what the word genocide even means, actually.
So, genocide is OK if it's on a land that someone does have ties to? Now, THAT'S obscene!
Btw, are you insinuating that the Jews have no ties to Palestine? Because that's also obscene. Nice job denying an entire people their heritage to further your disgusting political views.
This is my favorite part of your disgusting post btw...
I don't hate Israelis, but
aka_ I'm not racist, BUT
I don't hate Mexicans, BUT
I'm not homophobic, BUT
You will literally believe anything anyone says as long as it is disparaging Israelis. I could show you a crayola drawing and tell you it was an ad put out by the King of Israel saying that the Palestinians have poop for heads and you'd fly off the handle about how it's another example of obscene genocide.
I also find it interesting that you're getting all bent out of shape over a FAKE advertisement, while you don't have much to say about the fact that the Palestinians seem to be encouraging their own children to head out into the streets and attack random Israelis. Granted, the kids in that video were exceedingly stupid... (the one ran straight into the front of the car!) Still though... it's hardly behavior you should be endorsing.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)because I don't support your viewpoint.
I do not see a man trying to avoid those children, I see a man hitting those children and not stopping. Moreover, treating that still as a wonderful thing to be used in an ad means that the life of those children means very, very little to you. That ad was real; it won an award. You don't put an ad like that in print, and give it an award, if you care about the children being run over. And no, it's not photoshopped. You can't claim that all of this is not real, you know.
Hasbara litterally means 'the explaining.' What it actually is, is propaganda.
Israel is a construct of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. It did not exist, certainly not as it has been promoted, and was never promised to anyone by anything except a set of tales meant to control people who 'believe.' There is no biblical map that can be compared to Palestine. It's a collection of place names.
One more time. The bible is not history. Not the Torah, not the Christian bible, not the Koran.
None of it. There is no proof of the existence of David, and Jerusalem was likely abandoned during his supposed lifetime. It's a tale. There is no proof of the existence of Jesus. There is no proof that the Al Aqsa Mosque was ever the temple on the mount.
And yes, I understand what genocide is, and that Israel is perpetrating such a thing. Israel is trying to wipe out an entire people in order to steal their land. A delegation from the EU agrees, by the way. Israel is breaking international law. They are signatories to the Geneva convention, and they are perpetrating war crimes. The 'war' in Gaza was no such thing. It was collective punishment, and the blockade will not permit rebuilding. That means that the people living there are not getting food, do not have shelter, and are not receiving the aid that they were promised. It is winter. Between starvation and lack of shelter, that means that many will die. That is a war crime, a crime against humanity. It is genocide
Hamas does not have the arms, the military, or the power to do this to Israel, and they are observing the cease fire.
Netanyahu stated that the Jews were building in Jerusalem 3,000 years ago and we are building now. That city was built 3000 to 26000 BCE, long before the much vaunted Jewish people existed.
Saying that the Ashkenazi Jews are returning home is a ridiculous statement. The ties of the blood to a piece of land that they didn't own, is a myth. That land has not been Israels land for more than 2,000 years....and they stole it from someone else to begin with.
If you are so proud of what Israel is doing to the people of Palestine, own it instead of trying to hide it.
If all you have to fight what people have to say about Israel is 'racism,' it's time to take another look. (There is no such thing as race, either. http://physanth.org/about/position-statements/biological-aspects-race/)
Do I believe that the Israelis are doing good things? For their own co-religionists, perhaps. But what they are doing to the Palestinians is obscene, and it's genocide in the classic definition: the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Ok. Where was this supposed ad printed? What publications? And what award did it win? Isn't it weird how every version online is a digitally produced piece. Not a single one seems to have been printed and scanned in. And no one at Subaru seems to know anything about it.
Seriously, you are clueless.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....joining in PDJane ?
Here Shaktimaan an answer for you written by another Sabra :
Subaru ad makes light of West Bank price tag attacks
Where was this supposed ad printed? ..... Yedioth Aharonot.
http://972mag.com/subaru-ad-makes-light-of-west-bank-price-tag-attacks/34763/
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)And you're right, it's offensive as hell. But it's a local dealership ad, not a corporate Subaru ad. More importantly, it's not the "award winning ad" that PD posted earlier; the one under discussion. It's a totally different (though real), ad. I've actually already seen this one, as it was widely circulated in the ad community for being so offensive.
That said it has nothing to do with this discussion, which referenced a different image of a fake ad, that PD still has trouble identifying as such. This ad, tasteless as it is, doesn't use imagery of Palestinian kids getting run over to demonstrate subaru's powerful drivetrain. It's worlds away from that obvious fake posted earlier.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)One is real ...the other is fake ..... both are " offensive as hell."
Who do you think created the fake one Shaktimaan and why ?
BTW PDJane......ref : " An ad for a car shows a car ramming into two Palestinian children, and it's celebrated. It receives an award. "....
The ad did not receive an award ...the picture did :.....
Photo of stone-throwers getting hit by car in East Jerusalem wins award
Photograph depicts chairman of an organization dedicated to bolstering Jewish presence in Jerusalem running over 2 Palestinian youths who were hurling stones at him.
By Nir Hasson | Dec. 14, 2011
A photograph depicting the chairman of an organization dedicated to bolstering Jewish presence in Jerusalem running over two Palestinian children who were hurling stones at him was chosen as the best photograph at the "Local Testimony" 2011 exhibition.
"Local Testimony" is a regional exhibition of photojournalism, running concurrently with the annual "World Press Photo" exhibition that features international press photographers. This year's exhibit is shown at the Eretz Israel Museum in Tel Aviv.
The winning photo was shot for the French News Agency (AFP ) by Ilia Yefimovich, in October 2010 in Silwan, next to Jerusalem's Old City. The driver, David Be'eri, chairman of Elad Association, a group dedicated to strengthening Jewish settlement in the area, claimed after the photo was published that photographers were part of a Palestinian ambush and that the photo was actually staged.
Yefimovich vehemently denies these claims. "Who staged the photo? It can also be interpreted in defense of the driver. Who staged it? The children who felt like being run over that day?"
Yefimovich told Haaretz that he arrived with other photographers at the area because of the tension in Silwan after a local inhabitant was shot dead by a security guard.
"On the way there, stones were hurled at me as well," recalls Yefimovich, "little children throw stones in Silwan, that's the essence of the place."
The police later accepted Be'eri's explanation that he was in danger and had no intention of harming the children. The children weren't tried, because they were under the age of 12, the age of criminal responsibility, but a Silwan resident, Mohammad Sharfi who was present, was sentenced to 10 months imprisonment.
Source : http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/photo-of-stone-throwers-getting-hit-by-car-in-east-jerusalem-wins-award-1.401251
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)So how many Palestinians have died of starvation thus far? Ballpark it.
In fact, I challenge you to show me a single photo of a starving Palestinian.
Christ, you are such a sucker.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)You can't see them, because the Gaza strip is completely isolated. Nothing gets in, nothing gets out. Gazans were going hungry before this. It's winter. There is no shelter for these people, because Israel is still destroying homes in the occupied territories and it has knocked down a huge proportion of the housing stock.
You are gullible as hell. You believe that Israel is innocent?
No. I have never, ever, met a more bigoted people than the Sabras.
I had one tell me here, after he refused change to a small black girl, that we should have kept Canada "clean."
It goes on and on, and you can believe what you wish. I have seen what's happening, seen the statistics, listened to a number of Palestinians here and on the net. I have listened to the Lehava. I have listened to their vile tirades. Do you think that Israel has a right to destroy an entire people over a few rockets?
Jetzt.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)So, you're trying to tell me that Palestinians are starving to death but no one knows because no one can see them?
Soo, if nothing gets in or out how do you know anything that's happened there at all? I mean, if no one there has a digital camera or a computer then that would mean that NO photos have been taken and distributed from the Gazan strip at all. Is that what you're saying?
People are starving and no one can see it because of the blockade and you just happen to know about it because... You haven't thought this through, have you?
I have seen what's happening
How is that, if nothing can get in or out?
If Palestinians are starving to death then why don't you just link to a photo of it, or to one of the many news sites that are surely covering the story?
Btw, if nothing gets in or out, how did the Palestinians build their mall? If people there are starving why haven't they gone to the mall's food court? You really can't blame that on Israel. Food courts have great selections.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)So your argument is that racism against Jews does not exist because "there's no such thing as race?"
That's really your argument?
I suppose that must mean that the Israelis are not guilty of racism against Palestinians then either?
Nice debating skills.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)But if you want to talk about race, the Jewish race doesn't exist either. It's a religion. Palestinians have been on the land for a lot longer, and their right is the right of nationality. The Jewish State did not exist. Jews lived there, yes, but there is no evidence of a Jewish state until about 164-163 BCE. The year after, Heroditus was sent to deal with the situation and the Jews were expelled in about 66CE.
In other words, the biblical narrative, like everyone else's biblical narratives, is a tale. It's not real.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)It's not a race, true, but then neither are Palestinians. Btw, didn't you just say that there's no such thing as race at all anyway?
Judaism is not just a religion though. This is embarrassing. But I'm curious. What do you think the Jewish people are?
So you also think that the Palestinian nation is thousands of years old? That's interestung. Where'd you learn that?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)The Jewish People thing is a nice, comforting, biblical based belief. But belief doesn't make it fact.
The faith of Judaism has spread throughout the world, it has put down roots from South Africa, to India, to Europe....but there is no way to 'keep the blood pure.' Jews are like everyone else, part of the great melting pot.
That's why 'going back to the homeland' is such a very convenient but foolish thing. It is no longer legal to take land through military conquest, you see. (That is, of course, how Jews moved into the middle east in the first place. The conquered the Canaanites. Temporarily.)
The Palestinians have keys to homes in the occupied territories and behind the 1948 borders that have been in their families for 16 generations. There is a man who opens a christian church every morning and closes it every night. He is Muslim. The family has been carrying out what they see as a sacred duty for nineteen generations. Palestine itself has been occupied over and over and over again, but the families kept their lands...until the Zionists came along. When you say thousands, they have been on that land since 66BCE, and they may actually be the descendants of Mizrahi Jews who converted to Christianity or to Islam.
This is a useless argument, however, because you believe in the Myth of Judaism. The great, wonderful myth. I don't.
By the way, the Palestinians I have met don't match the stereotypes. They don't hate Jews. They do, however, want the land they grew up on back; that is something I can't criticize them for.
If Israel wants to remain in Palestine, pushing her neighbours out, further depriving them of their land and their water and their tax revenues will not give Israel a permanent space. Frankly, the downtrodden have a habit of rising up. Nor will, frankly, pushing the myth of poor little downtrodden Israel do much to garner sympathy. Do what you need to do. Stop the killing. Get rid of the idea that Jews are special, God's chosen people, and they deserve a Palestine with neither Christian nor Muslim nor non-believer inside it's borders. Make a Palestinian state and a Jewish state, or go for a single state where everyone is equal. Understand that a religious state, meant only for Jews, is not a democracy.
Being a Jew doesn't give you a right to someone else's land..........especially when you were kicked out years ago for trying to be really special!!
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I'm sorry, but pure blood has nothing to do with Jewish identity. Anyway, tell me something. If Judaism is merely a religion then how do you account for the millions of Jewish people who are not religious? Secular Judaism is hardly a radical or new concept. If it is the religion that dictates whether one is a Jew then what precisely makes those who reject the religion Jewish? Is it your belief that non-practicing Jews are not in fact Jewish?
Get rid of the idea that Jews are special, God's chosen people, and they deserve a Palestine with neither Christian nor Muslim nor non-believer inside it's borders.
We can't get rid of that idea because it doesn't really exist. Israel has no such policies that deny non-Jews or non-believers citizenship. Nor is Israel a religious state.
You should note however that while Israel has a large percentage of Arab and non-Jewish citizens, none of the surrounding Arab states have any Jews living there at all anymore. And It is the Palestinians who have voiced their refusal to allow any Jewish people to become citizens of a future Palestinian state.
You don't seem to know many basic facts about either Israel or Judaism, yet you're quite confident to pass judgement anyway. Even if you have to make up your own facts to do so.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)I have heard them say so.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)
yes. Israel does
Israel denies citizrnship to all non religious Jewish, non Jewish, Christian and Muslim people?
You just described the majority of Israeli citizens.
How are so many of those people citizens of Israel then? How are they getting citizenship year after year?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)This week, Netanyahu has threatened to deprive Muslims from East Jerusalem of their citizenship and send them to the Gaza strip. That, of course, is part of his threat to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque and "re-build" the Temple on the Mount....which, by the way, there is no evidence was ever on that site.
Israel does not welcome Muslims or Christians. There are a few cities where the population is secular, but let a marriage take place between Jew and Arab, and there is a bunch of Lehava on the streets. Yes, there are peace groups like B'Tselem and JVP,
Neturei Karta: Jews United Against Zionism and Rabbis for Human Rights. They do marvellous work, but mostly from outside of Israel. Journalists and investigators like Alison Weir are not allowed into the Gaza strip, in part because the IDF is still making incursions.
The settlers are as bigoted a people and ever lived. They have confiscated at least nine Palestinian homes in Jerusalem since the end of the 50-day collective punishment; simply walked in, threw their owners out, and taken over their homes.
Where does it say in the bible that this is a good thing, that Israel gets to do this?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Netanyahu never threatened to strip Israeli Arabs of their citizenship. He never voiced plans to destroy al aqsa and rebuild the temple. More than a few cities are secular, in fact most Israelis are secular, as were its founders. No settlers "confiscated" anyone's homes in Jerusalem. Some did buy homes from Palestinians that they moved into amidst much controversy, but that's hardly the same thing.
You've clearly never been to Israel. You believe propaganda from disgusting groups like neturei karta who attended irans holocaust denial conference.
And like every other absurd claim of yours you are unable to provide a single iota of evidence that your claims carry water. In fact if you read the news, you'd know that it frequently refutes your gross propaganda.
Netanyahu, who has repeatedly said he has no intention of changing the status quo, on Saturday urged the far right to act "responsibly" in the face of mounting tensions and near daily clashes in Jerusalem.
"At this time we must show responsibility and restraint," he said at the Sunday cabinet meeting.
But he also told ministers that Islamic groups were using claims of plans to change the rules at the compound to foment anti-Israeli sentiment.
"They are disseminating lies to the effect that we intend to destroy or harm the Al-Aqsa mosque and that we intend to prevent Muslims from praying there," he said.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)And that Netanyahu will be slightly more circumspect about changing the status quo. Jordan has already said they will not support him, and that they are ready to defend the site.
But he is demolishing the houses of those who are accused of terrorism, leaving their families homeless. He has suggested depriving Jerusalem arabs of their citizenship, yes. http://www.juancole.com/2010/04/netanyahu-commits-to-colonizing-east-jerusalem-first-palestinian-expelled-under-new-policy.html
So this is all for show, as usual.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Can you tell me what the climate is like there during that time?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Parts of northern Gaza is underwater; thousands have had to access shelter outside their homes. Is it winter as we know it? No. It never gets to -30, for instance. However, they do get rains, they can get snow, and winter hasn't fully arrived yet. Because of the infrastructure damage, it is going to be difficult to keep people dry and warm, especially those displaced currently living in tents.
The average temperature in December, January and February is between 12 and 13 degrees Celsius. That's about the temperature is is in Toronto at the moment. It can go to a high of 18 degrees and as low as 6.5 during the day. If you have no home, are living in a tent, often without a floor, and trying to keep your family warm, it is a hardship.
It is not tropical in Gaza during the winter. No, they aren't going to freeze to the ground, but calorie restrictions, lack of work, the lack of electricity, sewage and water are going to cause difficulties. How to you keep a newborn warm and dry? How do you keep your children fed when you have to rely on food aid and the crossings are blocked.
Do you think that, just because it's the middle east, it's fun to live outdoors in the rainy season? Or did your question have to do with the fact that parts of Palestine are relatively warm, dry and sunny, so all of it is? Or did you think that when I said 'winter' I was picturing blizzards and snow forts?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Not sure everyone realizes how temperate the weather is in Gaza during the winter.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Life can be very difficult for anyone who is homeless regardless of the climate.
Israeli
(4,151 posts).....tried to minimalize the weather over here oberliner.
For your edification :
Rainfall pushing Gaza to humanitarian crisis
http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/special-reports/gaza/139-rainfall-pushing-gaza-to-humanitarian-crisis
King_David
(14,851 posts)LOL
catnhatnh
(8,976 posts)...when reprisals were something all Jewish people spit upon. Shame their government now endorses them...
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Why Israel allows their people to kill and get away with it should be considered a war crime by illegal non-combatants.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you see any problems with what you've written here?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Unbelievable.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Israeli children are not being killed at the rate of three a week. Palestinian children are. And yes, the government endorses those deaths, or they would do more to stop them.
I would also point out that, while the Palestinians are observing the cease-fire, Israelis aren't.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Link?
And yes, the government endorses those deaths, or they would do more to stop them.
That's not what endorse means.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)That is at least fourteen years of mowing the lawn and Israel breaking the cease-fire.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths (the list here is compiled by B'tselem, who admit that they don't track every Palestinian death, just those where it can be shown that the Israelis are responsible.)
Dismantling homes of possible militants, arresting women and children, who are not likely to be combatants, spraying streets and schools with waste and water, dismantling playgrounds, and threatening journalists in the occupied territories with death....sounds like terrorism to me.
And yes, every one of those things is documented.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Palestinian children are not being killed at a rate of three a week, every week, as you said.
Your link stated that an AVERAGE of two a week were killed, by adding up the sum since 2000 and dividing that by 14 years!!! Which isn't what you said at all... That three Palestinians a week were continuously being killed each week. You even accused the Israeli government of endorsing it by not doing enough to end it. In reality there's nothing for them to end as these figures reflect deaths that in almost every case occurred as part of military actions in the past.
Using your same technique, nazis have killed an average of 2050 Jews every week since the start of the holocaust! The German government must endorse it as they've done nothing to stop it!
Nothing but more garbage propaganda. You should be ashamed of yourself. Disseminating such blatant lies only serves to harm the legitimate Palestinian cause.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)There are more:
Bahaa Samir Badir, 13, was shot in the chest after Israeli forces raided the village. 16 October 2014.
A 6 year old an a 5 year old were deliberately run over by a settler, according to eye witnesses. One girl is dead, another in critical condition. Einas Khalil and another young girl, Nilin Asfour, were walking on the main road near the village when they were hit, and were taken to the hospital in Ramallah where their wounds were described as serious. 26 October 2014
Einas passed away hours later
A baby died in Jerusalem because of tear gas inhalation.
8 Palestinian civilians, including 3 children and an elderly woman, were wounded in different shooting incidents
Israeli forces conducted 77 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank.
Nor are children the only victims. A man was admitted to hospital with burns over 50% of his body; settlers tried to burn him to death.
Protests are ongoing about the shooting death of 22-year-old Khir Hamdan in the village of Kafr Kanna overnight on Saturday after he attempted to attack them with a knife. However, he was running away when he was shot; the soldiers were in no danger.
"According to investigations conducted by PCHR, at approximately 08:00 on Wednesday, 22 October 2014, Israeli naval forces chased Palestinian fishing boats which were sailing at 3 miles off al-Sudaniya in the Northern Gaza Strip. Israeli boats opened fire at the fishermen and surrounded a fishing boat with 5 fishermen on board. Israeli forces arrested the fishermen and took them to Ashdod port and confiscated their boat. The fishermen were identified as: Emran (27); Muhammad (22); Fadi (26); Khalil Juhar Baker (22). The fishermen are still in Israeli custody.
It should be noted that Israeli naval forces have not complied with the ceasefire agreement concluded between Israel and Palestinian armed groups under Egyptian auspices on 26 August 2014. This agreement includes allowing Palestinian fishermen to sail within 6 nautical miles in the Gaza Sea. According to PCHR's investigations, all attacks took place within the distance of 6 nautical miles, which proves that Israeli forces' policies aim to tighten restrictions on the Gaza Strip's fishermen and their livelihoods." http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10695:israeli-naval-forces-escalate-attacks-against-palestinian-fishermen-in-gaza-sea5-fishermen-arrested-and-boat-confiscated&catid=36:pchrpressreleases&Itemid=194
Thanks to the blockade, fuel shortages abound and medicines are in short supply.
The litany goes on, and on, and on. How can you claim that a dead document that can't be proven even by the archaeological record, gives the right to do this?
No. There is no excuse for this.
And don't even try that old canard about Palestinian sources being unreliable. Alison Weir has done studies, lived in the area, visited the west bank and Gaza. She has documented much of this. The western media over-documents Israeli deaths, and the gap is almost 1,000 times.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Three children a week are being killed? Well, you still haven't shown me any kind of link that supports that.
If it's true then why not just provide some verification?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)However, at the moment, I have a young Palestinian woman in an NGO who is putting together a list of the deaths since the last collective punishment in Gaza. When that list is complete, with the dates and places, I will see if you would accept any of the proof on that list.
That is an accepted statistic, in part because B'Tselem is so careful about such things. It is taking them time to collect data, because they often can't get information on the ground, and because their access to Palestinian news is not instantaneous, the data comes with a six month to one year delay. The average is, I suspect, because there were years that the IOF had other things to do than to kill youngsters on a weekly basis. However, from what I have seen since the 'cease-fire', that statistic is holding, even without the deaths from 'protective edge.' That rate was between 450 and 500 children.
I can't imagine why, if you won't accept their data, you think I can deliver you data that you will accept. The burned young man was all over the middle east news last week. I am hoping he survives, but it will be a long painful road if he does.
By the way, B'Tselem will no longer share their files with the government and IOF forces. I can only imagine what kind of provocations that took.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I find them to be an accurate and fair organization. The problem isn't that you've been showing me information that I reject. You haven't been able to show me anything at all that backs up your claim. Not a single thing.
The idea that btselem isn't able to access Palestinian news for months or a year is ridiculous. Perhaps you can link to something which backs that fact up? Doubtful though. There hasn't been any problem getting news, photos or information out of Gaza that I've seen anyone mention but you. Do they not have phones in Gaza? No one has the Internet? They certainly didn't have any difficulty reporting the events during protective edge, did they?
Btw, if btselem isn't able to get any news for at least six months then how exactly have you been coming across your "statistics?"
This is the dumbest conversation I've ever had on this website.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)to make it so. Some of the statistics are on other NGO's, often Palestinian ones. Al Monitor has a section for Palestine, as well. The Middle East Monitor. Do you think that Palestinians are illiterate? There are newspapers and journalists in Gaza.
B'Tselem researches death statistics very thoroughly. There are only preliminary statistics for operation protective edge, and there will not be more than that for a couple of months, perhaps longer. Deaths since then are not published even in preliminary form. You do know this, I'm sure, unless you are as obtuse as you are presenting at the moment.
There is a problem with Palestinian deaths, because they are always under-reported. That is the problem with living under an occupation.
