Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumMother of demolished Silwan home: 'Violence begets violence'
A relative of Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi, who killed two
Israelis with his car last month, displays his portrait inside his
family home after it was razed by Israeli authorities in East
Jerusalem's Silwan neighborhood on Nov. 19, 2014.
(AFP/Ahmad Gharabli)
JERUSALEM (Ma'an) -- The mother of Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi, who killed two Israelis after driving into civilians in Jerusalem last month, spoke out on Wednesday following the demolition of her home by Israeli forces.
"The Israeli occupation wants to break up our family and displace us. They think that by demolishing the houses of martyrs they will deter the people of Jerusalem and Palestine, but violence begets violence," she told Ma'an.
"I don't know what to do and where we will live in the coming days," she said, while sitting on a couch in an apartment next to her demolished home.
The family has temporarily moved to her husband's brother's home.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=741129
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Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)even more," said Jeff Halper, the founder of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions."What it does it helps the Israeli people feel that they've been avenged."
In 2004, Moshe Ya'alon, a former army chief of staff, formed a review committee to look into the practice of punitive home demolitions. The committee found that it did more harm to Israeli interests, than it did to deter future attacks.
Israeli authorities had long maintained that fear of house demolitions led to families turning in their relatives to stop them from carrying out attacks.
"AbdelRahman died, but what about us?" Amer said. "Why must we suffer?" Obviously this is collective punishment. They want to humiliate us."
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/demolitions-not-stopped-attacks-20141119113711144909.html
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Another white man who can explain everything about how Palestinians feel.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I wonder what color he should be?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)Alex Kane of Mondoweiss encouraged Hamas not to accept the Egyptian brokered ceasefire.
Internet forums from extreme right to left are full of such examples too.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Barak Ravid
The European Union’s five largest countries object to demolishing the family homes of Palestinian terrorists, arguing that such measures are counterproductive. The ambassadors of Germany, France, Britain, Italy and Spain conveyed this message at a meeting with senior Foreign Ministry officials in Jerusalem on Thursday and called to restore calm to Jerusalem.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.627642
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The Palestinian Prisoner's Society said in a statement on Thursday that Israeli authorities have engaged in a wide-ranging crackdown on Palestinians that has led to the arrests of nearly 200 in East Jerusalem since the beginning of November.
The startling figures come amid growing instability in Jerusalem, while daily protest marches by Palestinians have been held across the city and Israeli authorities have been accused of "collective punishment" in their response to a series of attacks by individual Jerusalem Palestinians on Israelis.
In addition to the 190 Palestinians detained in East Jerusalem, the PPS said that 70 were from Hebron, 32 from Ramallah, 24 from Bethlehem, 18 from Jenin, 14 from Tulkarem, 14 from Nablus, nine from Tubas, five from Salfit, and four from Qalqiliya.
The arrests add to the more than 5,000 Palestinians who are already being held in Israeli prisons, including hundreds without charge or trial under a procedure known as "administrative detention."
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=741402
branford
(4,462 posts)who refers someone who committed premeditated murder and assault of over a dozen people, including an infant, by ramming their car into a crowd of people, as a "martyr." Neither Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi, nor apparently any member of his immediate family, believed in peaceful coexistence with Israelis, either before or after the crime.
I have sometimes questioned the home demolition policy on practical grounds, but then I listen to the family's statements and read about their involvement and encouragement, no less the pronouncements of high-level Palestinian officials condoning and encouraging such acts (and passing out candy in celebration), and all my reticence is put soundly to rest.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Don't presume somehow you yourself have better understanding and comprehension abilities than others.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)violence with home demolitions...her message is lost to you.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Has nothing to teach this world.
She should repent for her son if anything.
The last thing she should be doing is justifying her murderous son.
She should be ashamed for him.
The dudes life had no meaning and his life ended meaningless too.
Was a waste.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)home demolitions..again..the title and meaning went past you.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I don't expect her to sing and dance on demand, Dave. She's human being, a grieving mother who has to cope with the hows and why's of that son's death, on top of the destruction of her home - a destruction that would have happened no matter what she says or does not say.
I do not expect Palestinian mothers to spit on their dead sons or daughters any more than I expect it of Israeli, or American, or Russian, or Chinese, or Pakistani, or wherever-else mothers. Regardless of the circumstances around those deaths I expect a mother to do what she can to preserve the memory of a child she raised and loved. And if that requires some amount of delusion, well, that's what she does to cope. Or he, in the case of fathers facing the same.
A little basic fucking empathy. And if you can't manage even a fragment of understanding for a mother going through soem shit like this, why not just keep your mouth shut instead of bitching that she's not performing for you.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Scootaloo says :
Not sure who your thinking you are?
The dude just butchered 5 innocent Jews in a shul....he died a meaningless death ... Not a hero , not a martyr, nothing special , a cowardly murderous Zonah who's name will not be remembered next week.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm someone who is advising you on how to approach the situation of a grieving parent, Dave. Perhaps you are so fortunate, that you've never actually encountered such a figure in your life.
Yes, this dude murdered five people. It's fucking horrific by any standard. Reprehensible. There's no defense. and he died, for what he did. And we agree - it was a meaningless act that led to a meaningless death.
A mother is not going to say that about their dead child, Dave. Not so soon after it happens, not to the cameras and microphones. That parent is going to try to find what refuge they can from the fact that her son is dead after committing a senseless massacre. Can you fucking imagine what that must be like, for that to crash down into a parent's life? To not just lose a child, but to lose him in such a horrid way? I frankly don't think imagination can cover it, even for those of us who care to try.
No, her son is not a martyr for a cause. He's a murderer who threw his own life away for no sensible reason at all. But to that woman, he is still her baby boy. he always will be. And for now, in her grief, she is deluding herself, trying to find some meaning in his meaningless death, some way to anchor herself in all of this.
You disagree with her delusion. That's fine, so do I - like I said, he's no martyr. But she deserves some basic fucking empathy, as a mother who has just lost her child - that her son perpetrated something horrible does not lessen her loss by any amount. And if you can't muster even that little bit of empathy, then it's probably best to just step back and shut your hole, instead of railing and yelling about her not giving you some performance you demand of her.
shira
(30,109 posts)....acts against innocents. At worst they're silently ashamed of their son's act, but they're certainly not openly proud of it.
This mother deserves zero empathy.
King_David
(14,851 posts)“We are so sad that a man lost his life. He leaves behind a family that must feel nothing but sorrow.
“We send our deepest condolences, although words seem useless.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ottawa-shooting-mother-terrorist-who-4496158
King_David
(14,851 posts)NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) – The mother of an alleged “lone wolf” terrorist accused of trying to build pipe bombs to destroy police cars, post office vehicles and other targets around Manhattan is apologizing to the city.
“I want to apologize to the city,” Carmen Sosa told CBS 2?s Kristin Thorne. “I love New York and I’ve been here since 1987. I’m very disappointed by what my son is doing.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/21/mother-of-suspected-lone-wolf-terrorist-apologizes-to-city/
King_David
(14,851 posts)Kartini, the mother of Dani Dwi Permana, one of the two suicide bombers of the JW Marriot and Ritz-Carlton hotels, apologized Wednesday for the actions of her son.
Kartini said Dani once promised her he would spread Islamic values from mosque to mosque, but she did not expect her son would end his life as a suicide bomber, tempointeraktif.com. reported
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/08/12/mother-terrorist-apologizes.html
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Cathleen Alexis read a statement at her home in Brooklyn, saying she is "so, so very sorry that this has happened."
She said she did not why her son did what he did, but she was glad he can no longer do harm to anyone.
"His actions have had a profound and everlasting effect on the families of the victims," she said. "To the families of the victims, I am so, so very sorry that this happened."
Her statement concluded with, "My heart is broken."
http://abc7.com/archive/9252867/
King_David
(14,851 posts)Magomed Yevloyev, 20, detonated explosives strapped to his body at Moscow's Domodedovo airport on Jan. 24, killing 36 people. Analysts say the attack was proof the Kremlin has failed to quell a bubbling Islamist insurgency along its south.
"We commiserate, and we extend a very big apology to the whole world," Yevloyeva told Reuters on Wednesday in her first interview with foreign press in the town of Ali-Yurt in Ingushetia.
"We are so ashamed, so bitterly sad. We really worry for all the people who died, whom he wounded," the 54-year-old school teacher and mother of four said between muffled sobs as she perched on her dead son's wooden bed.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/mother-of-airport-bomber-ashamed-apologizes/431250.html
Her delusion that I'm suppose to feel empathy with is that she's proud that her son killed and injured over numerous innocent civilians.
The fact that he was a premeditated mass murder is what's giving her solace. She'll not in denial that he's a killer, she's proud of it. That is the memory she is trying to preserve, dead Jews.
I could understand a mother in denial that her son was a cold-blooded killer despite the obvious evidence, but when the murders are a the source of pride and love, something is very, very wrong with the mother and her society.
shira
(30,109 posts)....appalled or disturbed by mothers of terrorists who are proud of their children's butchery against Jewish civilians.
Says everything about the Palestinian cause they support, doesn't it?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Nothing said about agreeing with her or accepting her delusion as the truth. Just recognizing that you're looking at a mother who's coping with something truly horrible.
Here in the United States, there are 4,491 mothers whose sons volunteered to travel to the other side of the world to gun down Arabs because the president's god said so, and came home dead for their trouble. A futile, arrogant, and disgusting crusade that resulted in the slaughter of over a hundred thousand Iraqis, the displacement of nearly two million. Do we demand our grieving mothers repudiate their sons, to spit on them, sing about how meaningless their deaths were? Do we scream and howl when they say instead they are "proud" of their son's "service"?
Service to whom? For what? To what gain, and at what cost? Rational questions. But grief is irrational and basic decorum says you don't throw them in the face of a grieving parent.
Attack the perpetrator. Not his mother. or if you must attack her, at least be honest with the rest of us and do tell, what you feel her penalty for not performing for you ought to be. She's already having her home destroyed regardless of her stance, so what else is there to clobber her with? What further penalty, what degradation or abuse heaped on this woman, would bring you the most pleasure? How much should she suffer, before you feel that her debt to you is paid?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Did you read some of the posts that I posted above of other mothers in similar situations?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=88263
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)whether it is terrorist or newborn in it's cradle or an 80 year old tending his fields
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)Should his acts be condoned or excused, no less celebrated by handing out candy?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)because that really has no place in this not for religious reasons but because of what the term means in this context
branford
(4,462 posts)Do you believe Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi was a martyr? Why?
Do you condone or excuse his acts?
Do you approve when high-ranking** Palestinian officials, both PA and Hamas, hand out candy in celebration after such acts?
** I would normally say elected officials, but I believe Abbas is in the 10th year of his four year term, most other PA and Hamas officials are similarly situated, to say nothing of the Hamas coup, and no one, either Palestinian or their western supporters, even suggests another remotely democratic election for fear of the outcome.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps you'll get the answer you so desire
branford
(4,462 posts)I inquired about your opinion concerning the individual and his acts to establish a framework for our discussion.
It is quite clear that you asserted that all deaths even remotely related to the Israels may be considered "martyrs" by the Palestinians. Assuming arguendo this is true, do you believe all these individuals are martyrs, including Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)so repeat it please, why the dithering?
branford
(4,462 posts)It is easily possible to both support the Palestinian cause and unequivocally condemn the acts by people like Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi, no less raise them to the status of celebrated "martyr."
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it is a simple enough thing so why?
branford
(4,462 posts)You are usually not hesitant to offer your opinion.
Shall I assume that you indeed view Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi as a martyr to be celebrated, or at the very least, wholly or partially excuse his acts?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)solely within the context of my comment here
12. Many seem ignorant of the fact that martyr is used for any Palestinian that is killed by an Israeli
whether it is terrorist or newborn in it's cradle or an 80 year old tending his fields
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113487955#post12
yes they are martyrs but only within that context they are not hero's or good guys or anything of the sort but they were killed by Israeli's, the use of the term martyr means simply that in this usage it has no bearing on guilt innocence or anything else
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)with the back history on I/P.
branford
(4,462 posts)I'm well aware you claim that any Palestinian allegedly killed by an Israeli may be considered a martyr.
Now, do YOU personally view Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi as a martyr, or in any way excuse or celebrate his actions?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)perhaps you should go back and reread it
here I'll link you to it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113487955#post33
branford
(4,462 posts)Is there any reason why you refuse to offer you own opinion? You are usually anything but shy in offering your perspective.
I sadly assume that you simply do not wish to condemn someone who intentionally kills and injures over a dozen civilians by running them over with their car, or worse, you actually celebrate Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi as a martyr.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but if fantasy comforts you who am I to change that 
branford
(4,462 posts)Do YOU personally view Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi as a martyr, or in any way excuse or celebrate his actions?
It's a question that very few would have any difficulty or reluctance in answering, even those who support the Palestinians.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)However, your answer was very carefully limited by the purported context of the earlier comment and avoided the more pertinent inquiry.
Let's remove the definition and "context" of "martyr" from our discussion for a moment for purposes of clarity.
So, do YOU personally excuse or justify, no less celebrate, the actions of Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi and those like him?
Do you personally consider Abd al-Rahman al-Shaludi a criminal, terrorist, hero, victim, or something else entirely? Why?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)once again
33. my perspective is this
solely within the context of my comment here
Star Member azurnoir (36,124 posts)
12. Many seem ignorant of the fact that martyr is used for any Palestinian that is killed by an Israeli
whether it is terrorist or newborn in it's cradle or an 80 year old tending his fields
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113487955#post12
yes they are martyrs but only within that context they are not hero's or good guys or anything of the sort but they were killed by Israeli's, the use of the term martyr means simply that in this usage it has no bearing on guilt innocence or anything else
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=88239
branford
(4,462 posts)In the actual article, the mother clearly approves of the her son's murderous acts. Trying to soften the sentiments with a more media-friendly caption changes nothing.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)if you demolish homes for what her son did, you will likely see more violence
in retaliation.
You don't recognize this as a twisted act..but Israel did in 2005 when they ended the
practice. They've been told it will increase violence by 5 other nations as well and to
stop it.
But you're certainly free to encourage the practice.
shira
(30,109 posts)...as someone who is considered more progressive than any Zionist, no matter how critical of Israel.
"To put the matter as starkly as possible: from the standpoint of Marxism and international socialism an illiterate conservative superstitious Muslim Palestinian peasant who supports Hamas is more progressive than an educated liberal atheist Israeli who supports Zionism (even critically)."
Gotta understand the mindset, somehow...
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...when they confiscate a drug dealer's public housing, tossing out the drug dealer's family altogether.
Where's the sympathy for these families suffering so-called collective punishment and war crimes committed by the US government?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Amos Harel 08:00 21.11.14
A large discrepancy – which, were it not for the horrific circumstances, could be called ridiculous – exists between the bombastic declarations by Israel’s leaders about taking tough measures against terrorism and restoring security to Jerusalem, and the practical significance of the steps actually taken on the ground.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.627718
branford
(4,462 posts)will also hasten, not prevent, the next initfada.
The barricades, however, may actually save lives, both Israeli and Palestinian.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)not referring to terrorists who attack synagogues with knives, etc as martyrs and celebrating what they did would help. Instead they should mourn the dead on both sides and condemn the killings.
There are settlers who commit crimes, murder against Palestinians, but they are not referred to as martyrs. They are condemned by the community at large. Ma'an news and other sources should discourage the use of that term.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Star Member azurnoir (36,124 posts)
12. Many seem ignorant of the fact that martyr is used for any Palestinian that is killed by an Israeli
whether it is terrorist or newborn in it's cradle or an 80 year old tending his fields
http://www.democraticunderground.com/113487955#post12
branford
(4,462 posts)someone who mows down over a dozen innocent civilians with their car as a martyr, rather than a criminal or terrorist.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
Allan Sørensen ✔ @allansorensen72
Follow
Sderot cinema. Israelis bringing chairs 2 hilltop in sderot 2 watch latest from Gaza. Clapping when blasts are heard.
3:26 PM - 9 Jul 2014
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-sderot-cinema-image-shows-israelis-with-popcorn-and-chairs-cheering-as-missiles-strike-palestinian-targets-9602704.html
King_David
(14,851 posts)What's totally disgusting and depraved and sick and base ,is glorifying and adulation of common base scum cold blooded murderers ,by their families and some in their communities and their leaders , as "martyrs ".
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....in the hopes that many innocents in Gaza are killed?
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)it tends to glorify their death, rather than making it a tragedy. That they died for a reason that will benefit someone in the long run. Deaths do not due that.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)in people who are responsible for these policies?
Settler violence: Lack of accountability
As the occupying force, Israel must protect the Palestinians in the West Bank. However, the Israeli authorities neglect to fulfill this responsibility and do not do enough to prevent Israeli civilians from attacking Palestinians, their property and their lands. The undeclared policy of the Israeli authorities in response to these attacks is lenient and conciliatory. Perpetrators are rarely tried, and many cases are not investigated at all or are closed with no operative conclusions.
http://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence
shira
(30,109 posts)...for praising or cheering on terrorist murderers of innocents.
After all, that's the Palestinian cause they support. They support the terrorists.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)"Israel should impose an immediate moratorium on its policy of demolishing the family homes of Palestinians suspected of carrying out attacks on Israelis," the New York-based group said, as the fate of three houses slated for demolition awaits a court ruling.
"The policy, which Israeli officials claim is a deterrent, deliberately and unlawfully punishes people not accused of any wrongdoing. When carried out in occupied territory, including East Jerusalem, it amounts to collective punishment, a war crime."
The East Jerusalem families of Mutaz Hijazi, and of cousins Uday and Ghassan Abu Jamal, killed by police after two separate attacks, have been served demolition orders on their homes but have appealed.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=741789
shira
(30,109 posts)....for the entire family living within the home with the drug dealer.
Where's HRW and the anti-Israel haters to protest this collective punishment & warcrime within America?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
1. What is civil asset forfeiture?
Civil asset forfeiture is a legal tool that allows law enforcement officials to seize property that they assert has been involved in certain criminal activity. In fact, the owner of the property doesn’t even need to be guilty of a crime: Civil asset forfeiture proceedings charge the property itself with involvement in a crime. This means that police can seize your car, home, money, or valuables without ever having to charge you with a crime. There are many, many stories of innocent people being stripped of their money and property by law enforcement.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/03/civil-asset-forfeiture-7-things-you-should-know
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)The anti-Israel crowd, including HRW, are repulsive hypocrites of the highest order. Why aren't they screaming like harpies about this collective punishment within America? Where are the war crime accusations?
Injustice!
Their Israel bashing is straight-up incitement. No different than the Stormfront crowd...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)You missed that part? Civil liberties attorneys with the Institute for Justice, who recently filed a class action lawsuit against Philadelphia authorities for abusing the law, say, "Civil forfeiture is something that is an assault upon fundamental notions of private property ownership and due process."
But Kabateck disagrees, "It's a good law. It works. That doesn't mean that it doesn't sometimes have issues that need to be corrected. The system constantly has to change."
Now, how does that absolve Israeli policy? The longer you equate human rights groups
with Stormfront the more people will laugh. Maybe you haven't noticed, but in the
US, the ACLU has been in active overdrive on abuse of power in government on state
and federal levels.
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)along with the UNHRC have a LONG history of being anti-Israel. They have absolutely no standing in my eyes to criticize Israel while they turn a blind eye to so many other, and far worse atrocities around the world.
When they start coming out with condemnations of other nations as much as they do Israel, maybe I will take them a little more seriously. Until then, they are a joke IMHO.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)looking for with Moon and he may give it him. How many countries get that kind
of consideration?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)But the HRW and UNHRC are. Just look at the number of statements/condemnations against Israel they come out with vs the rest of the world. Those two organizations are a joke.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Legal status
The use of house demolition under international law is today governed by the Fourth Geneva Convention, enacted in 1949, which protects non-combatants in occupied territories. Article 53 provides that "Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons ... is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations."[16]
However, Israel, which is a party to the Fourth Geneva Convention, asserts that the terms of the Convention are not applicable to the Palestinian territories on the grounds that the territories do not constitute a state which is a party to the Fourth Geneva Convention.[17][18][19] This position is rejected by human rights organisations such as Amnesty International, which notes that "it is a basic principle of human rights law that international human rights treaties are applicable in all areas in which states parties exercise effective control, regardless of whether or not they exercise sovereignty in that area."[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
