Question about good/bad words

[valerief]

I'm kinda old. When I was younger, words like "queer" and "dyke" were considered offensive. It's my understanding that nowadays those words have been re-co-opted by the LGBT community and are now "good" words both inside and outside the LGBT community. Am I correct about this or am I way off base? Thanks.

[napoleon_in_rags]

1. I think you're right about 'queer'.

I've certainly heard it used as an umbrella term for LBGT, by well meaning people.

[valerief]

2. Thanks. That's good to hear.

[pinto]

3. "Queer" has definitely come full circle. Some others, as well, depending on context and situation.

I think it's pretty fluid over time. (aside) I'm 59.

[valerief]

5. 59? A mere pup. (I'm eternally 39, just like Jack Benny.)

[mitchtv]

4. there's still a few of us alive that don't like it(Queer)

Personally, I wouldn't use it generally as an umbrella term. After all, that's a word that "pastor" has been using . Dyke is another subject. In the end , it depends who says it, and how.

[valerief]

6. Okay, thanks.

[MNBrewer]

9. Speaking of words, doesn't "pastor" mean sheep herder?

Seems apt.

[FreeState]

7. Dyke and Queer are pretty common here

In San Diego we have an official Dyke March. Queer has been making a comeback in academics as an acceptable term for many years (Queer Theory etc).

Neither term bothers me (Im a gay man so my opinion on Dyke really isn't valid other than seeing it used by gay women here). I use queer to identify myself about 30-40% of the time when talking about identity etc. (I can't remember the last time I told someone I was gay, I can however remember the last time in a discussion about life as a gay person identifying as a queer person.)

SF Dyke March: http://thedykemarch.org/
NYC Dyke March: http://nycdykemarch.tumblr.com/
Portland Dyke March: http://www.dykemarchportland.com/

[valerief]

13. Thanks. That's what I thought. A friend (another long-in-the-tooth DUer) didn't think so.

She thought, outside the LGBT community, those terms were always offensive, even when not used in a hateful way.

[TheCruces]

8. It depends on the context

Yes, those words have been re-co-opted. But they can still also be offensive. My friends and I use all sorts of slurs talking amongst ourselves, but only straight people that we know aren't homophobic in the slightest get to use them.

[Iggo]

10. This right here!

I can use those terms (and worse) with my friends who know I don't have a homophobic bone in my body. But on an anonymous message board? Not a chance, bucko.

[valerief]

14. Well, that makes perfect sense, and that's what I thought. Thanks. nt

[susanr516]

26. I would never use either term

Because I'm straight, I feel the danger of being labeled homophobic is too great. The written word also lacks all the verbal and visual cues from a face-to-face conversation. I always err on the side of caution.

[SoutherDem]

11. Words do have a tendency to change over time.

Maybe, it is my age, or the people I am around, but I am usually not offended by theses words no matter if they are used by straight or gay people.

However, I may be offended if the words are used in a derogatory way. What was the intent of the word, not the use of the word itself.

Same is true with the word "gay" as in "that is so gay".

I guess the only word which offends me always is the french word for a bassoon. (I don't even like to type it).

[valerief]

15. That's either really funny or really over my head.

[SoutherDem]

25. In many musical scores

bassoon is faggot, I am almost certain it is French.

[valerief]

27. Ah. In Google Translate, it's Basson. Hence, my confusion. Ha! nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. i think those words are not ok used by straight people

expect in pretty specific contexts

Like if a straight person were to say "queer community" or "queer studies" not "she's queer"

Dyke is also iffy from straight people

[valerief]

16. That's what an old friend of mine thinks, but I had the feeling things had changed.

Personally, I hate words having such power. Context, yes. Specific words, no. I'm not homosexual. I'm also not homophobic. I just hate giving power to specific to spread hate. Suck the power from them and make them ordinary words is my feeling. I guess America hasn't reached that point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. if you're not part of the in-group you don't get to reclaim words

i mean i would not use the n-word, even if parts of the african american community have reclaimed it.

context/privilege and in-group/out-group status matter when using language

[valerief]

19. I remember back when we had three races--Negroid, Mongloid, and Caucasoid.

(Now we have a gazillion races, but they're all just political categories anyway.) Back then, the n-word (I feel like such a baby using such euphemisms) was offensive, but 'negro' was respectable. I've learned over the past decade that 'negro' has become a bad word. Same thing with 'oriental.' Why should the word be the sin when the hate is? To me, it's just deflection from the real issue. But I don't make the rules. If I did, I'd say screw giving power to "sin" words. If they didn't have power, they wouldn't have hate in them.

Heck, I'm so old I remember when "bitch" was a sin word!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. i think communities use and change words as they think best fits them

they change with time and history and language. language is never static despite what william safire says!

[Jamastiene]

33. For me, dyke is offensive all the way around.

That is just my opinion though.

Queer, I don't find all that offensive, depending on context, how it is used. There are ways even that word can be used that would be offensive, at least to me.

[William769]

17. I myself don't use either word in any context.

And don't like them being used around me by anyone.

Thats my personal preference.

[hedgehog]

20. I'm a straight mamma of a lesbian here, but my advice is that

if there is any doubt, don't. Why offend or hurt people if you have no intention of doing so ? For example - there was a big discussion of "pearl clutching" here a few weeks back. Now, I asked my daughter about it, and she had never heard it used as an anti-gay pejorative. But, there are people here at DU who think differently, so why use the term and cause a distracting ruckus?

[valerief]

28. But, when you think of it, isn't that how Newspeak starts?

Vocabularies/connotations shrink and we're left with doubleplusgood. AND, worst of all, dumb phrases have unjustifiable power!

[hedgehog]

29. It's a matter of what you are trying to communicate,

better not to use the word if it communicates the opposite of what you mean!

I do regret the loss of the "pearl clutching" phrase as the image for hypocritical outrage.

I also haven't found a good replacement for the metaphor of the Tar Baby from the Brer Rabbit story - but that's one phrase I won't use because it clearly has been appropriated for a very offensive use in some places!

[valerief]

30. I think context is everything, not specific words. I just hate "sin" words, because

the words aren't the sin. They're a distraction from the sin.

[hedgehog]

31. For words like "queer" context is indeed everything! We need to take

special care on the interwebs though, because so often there is very little context. You can't see the person at the other end, and you aren't getting the body language and tonal inflections to guide you.

[obamanut2012]

22. I never use "queer" or "dyke" to reference a person/persons

Last edited Sun May 27, 2012, 07:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I do use them in specific contexts, like queer theory or Dykes on Bikes. I totally understand some wanting to reclaim the language, but FOR ME, I cannot call myself or someone else words that were used as weapons against me. YMMV of course.

I do think that straight people should never, ever use those words unless it is with an implicit understanding with LGBT friends that it's okay in certain circumstances.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. i would say explicit understanding.

[obamanut2012]

24. True -- I was thinking between very good friends

Who just know their boundaries with one another, but explicit with 99%. Exactly.

[napoleon_in_rags]

35. "I do think that straight people should never, ever use those words"

Oh, don't drag the LGBT community down into the N-word nonsense. The fact is that nothing has been done to combat racism by enforcing a segregated morality, where whether or not it's appropriate to use the n-word depends on the color of your skin, just like a the decision of whether or not to use a certain bathroom or drinking fountain depended on skin color in the mid-20th century south. We should be seeking to blur those lines not to reinforce them, to bring people together. So if its wrong to use a word, its wrong for everybody, and if its right, its right for everybody.

The work of Kinsey and other human sexuality experts tells us that the majority of Americans has had some kind of queer experience in their lives. I'd be more comfortable with a nation of people throwing the q-word around, knowing in the back of their minds it might pertain a little to them, then a nation where a small elite of LGBT, with stringent membership requirements in terms of experience, fiercely guards the use of the word. Think about it, please.

[obamanut2012]

36. Except I didn't do that

And, I absolutely don't think non-blacks should have the "nword" as part of their vocabulary.

[napoleon_in_rags]

37. What I'm saying is that blacks shouldn't have it in their vocabulary either.

In fact what I was trying to say is that we shouldn't divide ourselves up based on who can say what, we should look at the words themselves. When I look at the n-word, I see a foul word. Its a corruption of "negro", with ther "er" suffix added to the end. The "er" suffix is used in our language to tie an identity to an action. A swimmER is she who swims, a diggER is he who digs. The grotesque quality of the n-word is that it ties the color of a person's skin to their actions - what they can or will do - and as such it negates the fundamental concept of freedom, that what person's skin color is does not dictate what they will or may do. People are free to define themselves, to write their own story, whatever color skin they have. And we should embrace that, and throw out the n-word, whatever our race may be.

"Queer" is different. Intuitively looking at the history of that word, I hear a conversation between a British estate owner (played by Sean Connery) and his guest (played by Angela Lansbury).

Connery: Rufus my Butler married to her? Oh no my dear. He is very much a single man, and seems intent on remaining so, preferring the company of Jonathan, the gardener in his spare time.
Lansbury: Ah! What a queer fellow!
Connery (eyebrow raised): Queer indeed...
Lansbury: And what of your aunt Martha, is she recovering well?...

Its a word to cover the known in times where stating the known could get people thrown in jail. Its intent was never to demean, but simply not to pry, not to dwell. And it is a good word, with good intent when used.

These are my two cents on the matter.

Peace

[Fearless]

32. I think that a lot of it has to do with context and location...

Personally, (and I mean personally) I look at the context that any word is used in and judge based on that. However, when we talk about using words that may be sensitive in a public forum... such as DU... I believe that we have to take even greater care to ensure that people don't feel unsafe (particularly in LGBT). There are words that I may consider usable in a tight circle of friends who I know and who I feel safe using them with. However, on DU the whole world can see and take in their own contexts any words. This is why we have to be careful. We don't all know each other. We are all apt to take a word in the context that we understand it in. So misunderstandings could come up and have in the past.

Sooooo... context and location. On DU, I'd be safe and choose words wisely so as to not offend people, but at the same time stay true to your own values system. All my own opinion, of course.

[beyurslf]

34. I am a gay man and I use gay to describe myself.

I do use queer to talk about the community as a whole. Its seems sexist to say "gay community" to mean all of us. And I just hate the alphabet soup because I am afraid I will miss someone and someone will get all pissy about it. I figure "queer" just covers it.

I don't really use the word dyke but some of my women friends do.