The LGBT Community is about as big a tent as there is.

[William769]

When it comes to the LGBT Group here on DU, we do not cater to the few, we cater to the masses. Being such a diverse & large Group, we take into consideration all of our members, and weigh what safe haven means to all.
There is no doubt that the LGBT community has been slandered in the general public. We have been bullied & beaten, and yes, in some cases, killed just for being LGBT.
Words do matter in more ways than one. We do not want to come into a safe haven Group and hear slurs (no matter what the intention); we get enough of that on a daily basis in our every day lives.
We welcome all, and welcome diverse opinions, but we will not tolerate slurs used in the LGBT Group under any circumstances. If we want to hear them, all we have to do is walk out our front doors.

Signed
Hosts of the LGBT Group

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Signed, BTA

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

2. Recommend (from an ally)

And a kick.

[msongs]

3. so those who self identify on a different basis than you are not welcome? ok nt

[MNBrewer]

4. I think there is ample reason to have two GLBT groups in view of this

Some are affirmed by self-application of the words that I imagine you consider as slurs. There is ample reason, and ample room for two groups. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing.

[William769]

6. I don't have a problem with another Group

Our concern is this Group. This OP was not mine alone, it's a consensus of the LGBT Hosts.

[Jamastiene]

9. Two groups is not the issue.

The issue is the use of slurs against members of this group. We do not want members of this group to have to listen to those slurs being used in this group. Simple as that.

[MNBrewer]

12. You call them slurs

that's your opinion, and you're certainly welcome to it. It's well-founded. But so is the viewpoint that, self-applied, they can be empowering for some.

[loli phabay]

18. i look at it in the same way as people use ethnic slurs, if you self identify then i dont see an iss

issue with it. but its their group so you make the rules. I also believe that another group such as outlined by the other viewpoint is neccassary as not everyone walks in lockstep.

[Marrah_G]

22. Yes, it may be empowering for some

But that does not change the fact that seeing those words would upset other members of the group. No one is telling people not to call themselves whatever they want.... just not here. The feelings of the community have to be thought of.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. The 'empowering' by 'reclaiming old slurs is a really dated concept. Very 1986.

It really surprises me to see anyone taking that up as if it was au currant or as if other had not already 'been there, done that'.
It is the connection made between people that 'takes back' the language, if the language is not making connection, but rather division, it is not empowering but controling on the part of the user.
But it is not a current focus of any community I know. The youth don't get into 'reclaiming' words they were never called. We reclaimed them. A quarter of a century ago, and that's done now. Time to move on.

[closeupready]

5. Fully support that.

Just like I believe that any and all posts that link to hate speech websites should be hidden, regardless of intent ("know thine enemy", yadda yadda). K&R

[William769]

7. Thats a given.

[MNBrewer]

13. I disagree with that suggestion

Nobody is forcing you to click the link. Perhaps a warning similar to NSFW could be used instead of hiding those posts.

[closeupready]

15. Democratic Underground should not be helping direct traffic

to anti-semitic, white nationalist websites, and providing links helps generate revenue for those sites.

I have to say that I'm really sort of shocked that with regard to the types of information that pass muster within the context of the terms of service, many members here are so undiscriminating. You are entitled to your opinion.

[MNBrewer]

16. You said "hate speech websites"

And I still disagree, and whether i'm "entitled" to my opinion it remains that I am opposed to automatically hiding posts based on linking to "hate speech websites". Who gets to draw up the list? I can see hiding posts with links to the Nazi party website, or Ayran Nation, but what about the various other groups?

So, no links to the AFA website? Is that what you're saying?

What if it's a website that links to the AFA website? Hide those too?

[closeupready]

17. "Who gets to draw up the list?" List? I don't know what you're talking about.

Skinner and Dale set the terms. In forums, the hosts. If you mean in terms of objecting, everyone does - just hit alert and a jury will make a decision. I don't know what the AFA website is.

Please explain.

[William769]

19. I think thats the "American Family Association".

Which is considered a Hate Group by the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center). In my book they are a hate group. I for one don't care to see what trip they are spewing. But it is a balancing act, thats why we have several Hosts to discuss if something should be locked or not (since we cannot delete them). No one acts alone in this Group with the exception of a extreme urgency & then what has been done can always be undone when the smoke clears.

I am proud of the Hosts in this Group that take a active role to ensuring the a peaceful place for us to congregate on DU. We act as a team. We have had more peace in this Group while on DU3 than we ever did on DU2 (at least from when I joined in 2005).

I am sure we are not pleasing all the people all the time, but we strive to do our best.

[closeupready]

20. You are doing extremely well.

I mentioned in meta (as you may be aware) that there isn't as much traffic in GLBT as in meta.

There are probably a lot of reasons for that, but if traffic has fallen off in GLBT, we veterans here know why that is, and it's certainly not anything you or the other hosts have done - the fallout/purge predates even DU3.

Have a nice night!

Oh, and as to the American Family Association, I do think their speech qualifies as hate speech.

I have no need or use for knowing all the ways that various fundamentalist groups hate GLBT people. Well, I take that back - I ALREADY know almost all the ways they hate us and the depths of their hatred. I do not come here to be hounded and harassed by their verbal abuse and by the hate rhetoric they employ to spread anger, fear and intimidation.

But as with all things, context is key. I don't really think any of us here substantively disagree with each other; I just think sometimes people want to engage in some kind of drama, for who knows what reasons. Whatever. There is life beyond DU, and I hope we are all enjoying it, or trying to.

[Bohunk68]

43. If one goes to other websites

such as Joemygod or Towleroad, all those links are there along with the reportage. Considering all the shit that a lot of us have gone through and still go through, I don't think we are too weak to handle it. In fact, I think it makes us stronger and a lot more knowledgeable.

[closeupready]

44. Real journalism is one thing; depraved blog entries are entirely another.

And websites that host boards permitting discussion that favors homophobia, anti-semitism, racism and other forms of hatred are in the latter group, IMO.

My objection has nothing to do with the GLBT community being 'too weak to handle it'. Anyone familiar with my posts on this board knows I can dish out the insults with the best of them. Same would go for just about every participating member of this forum.

But that is NOT why I come to Democratic Underground, and ideally, most other members are interested in healthy, constructive discussion about current events and issues relating to liberal and progressive ideas.

If people want to sling shit, don't do it here, period.

[Call Me Wesley]

8. Signed, CMW.

This is not a reply to the OP (I fully support,) but my own statement on the issue.

Slurs are slurs, no matter what. I'm straight, and nobody really knows that I'm not just a dog typing on the internets. So, while I fully support and won't interfere what kind of definitions you use within your community of friends or family, I totally resent the lack of respect of even 'just' one voice who feels hurt by it. If you're going to use it still and know that you're hurting or insult someone you obviously care about, you're just an ignorant jerk/asshole/idiot/numb-nut. Feeling good being called that? I have other words to hurt you.

Since there was a recent - and still going on - eruption of freespeakers on DU, I can say this: If you truly believe that your ignorance is worth more than one bullied, insulted, hurt individual, then go for it. Defend yourself all you want with crude and non-withstanding personal evidence of 'it's okay,' because your friends get a chuckle out of it and totally understand it like some secret handshake you had since you were ten years old. Totally okay. For you. Perhaps not for others, because their live wasn't/isn't the same like yours. I know it sucks that there are differences and the World not revolving around you. It sucks terribly.

To make this short: What about 'this is hurtful' don't you understand? Do you need to hear it a billion time to perhaps change your own self-centered opinion? One's not enough? How about if it's you, one person, in the empty space of World and I?

What about respect, compassion and tolerance is so immensely difficult to understand?

[Vanje]

10. Signed, Vanje

[Puglover]

11. Consider me onboard. Pug.

[Zorra]

14. Count me in. It's a new day, and this is another part of our positive forward progress.

I really, really want to leave slurs and all the horrible bad stuff in the landfill of history, to be forever buried and forgotten.

Here's to y'all, and to a hate free future

[loli phabay]

21. not trying to start a fight or anything, but words that some people call slurs are used commonly

nowadays, especially amongst younger people and people in different scenes, i can understand some people getting upset over the usage of some of them and realistically i would never use them on DU but on a lot of other forums i frequent people use them as self decriptors as the norm. I think it all comes down to know your audience.

[William769]

24. Your right it comes down to this "I think it all comes down to know your audience."

We know our audience here in this Group. It is after all what the OP is about. And as far as this group is concerned, it will not be tolerated by anyone.

[loli phabay]

25. yup and thats why the groups are safe havens, but that dosent mean what offends people in the group

should be taboo in the rest of the world of DU, thats why i kinda like the idea of the groups

[Marrah_G]

23. Signed, Marrah

[Purveyor]

26. I don't post in this forum for one simple reason. Walking on 'eggshells' is not my thing. eom

[William769]

27. No one needs to walk on 'eggshells' but people do need to be respectful.

[Purveyor]

28. I've pursued this forum and it is 'eggshells'...indeed. No thanks. No worries however, I'm ok with

who I am without having to 'belong'.

[William769]

29. No problem.

Enjoy the rest of Du.

[plantwomyn]

54. Then I must be reading an illusion.

[Purveyor]

56. Guess so but 'illusions' can be fun at times so 'knock yourself out' and enjoy. eom

[Mothdust]

30. follow the golden rule

And if you find you have offended someone inadvertently, as I have found that I have done, say you're sorry. "i'm sorry".

[William769]

31. That is very good advice, unfortunately a lot of people don't follow it.

Hope to see more of you in the Group!

[Vanje]

32. +1

Welcome

[Heidi]

33. Signed, Heidi.

With love and respect.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

34. Does this include using the word "gay" to describe myself, the word the letter G in LGBT designates?

I ask because in the generation my nieces and nephews belong to, that is the word most bandied around as an insult, yet this forum uses it in it's title. I hear gay being used as a prominent derogatory remark among the "mainstream" nowadays ie: "That's so g*y". So it is okay for those that like the word gay to use it here and selfidentify... even though it is a slur, yet those that have spent decades reclaiming slurs, changing them to be a positive for members of this community cannot?

I don't see how my using any word to describe myself is offensive to others, if the use I am putting it to is a positive one for myself. I would say that if someone is offended by a word someone else uses to describe themselves, then the person offended should take it as an opportunity to look at their internalized homophobia and ask what it is about themselves, that when they hear a word, it causes them to feel such pain and self loathing. Instead of trying to force their limitations on others!

It is only when we believe the negative associations our detractors have placed on a word, that we can be offended by that word, whether it is g*y, qu**r, f*gg*t or m*pple syrup.

[Vanje]

35. nope

not worth it

[Scruffy Rumbler]

36. lol

yet you use the word "flaming" to describe yourself in you introduction post in welcome and help... a slur for us flaming faggots if there ever was one....you are right. Not worth it... the hypocrisy i mean. Oh and thanks for proving my point about being able to use words to describe myself that others may find offensive.

[Vanje]

37. I'm sorry you dont have better things to do than to research my old posts

[Scruffy Rumbler]

38. Sorry not searching out your old posts. Went to welcome and help and it was right there at the top.

Care to discuss the hypocrisy of using a slur to self describe, but belittle others for doing the same?

[Vanje]

39. Uh. No

Newbie's sudden interest in me creeps me out. You seem to have some sort of vendetta in your mind, that I'm really not interested in helping with.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

41. Pardon me,

you replied to MY post in the thread. No vendetta.

[closeupready]

45. You signed up a week ago, and you're already disrupting the forum.

Way to go.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

47. Sorry you see it that way.

For 10 of the last 12 years spent living in Portland, OR we referred to our community as the LGBTQ community. Our community center is named the Q Center. I thought I was adding to the conversation but it hasn't been taken that way. So much for that. If you and a couple other posters wish to see me as disruptive, well fine. I'll take that as a compliment as I have had experiences where questioning the status que has led to positive change for myself and my brother/sisters in the LGBTQ community. Be well.

[William769]

48. This is just an observation.

But members see a new poster on DU they come into our Group and their only participation is in this thread out of a large Group filled with great information on various subjects. Would you not see a pattern?

[Scruffy Rumbler]

49. I have actually participated in other threads and in other forums.

I responded to this OP because it did interest me. And again, thank you for your earlier reply stating your feelings about this topic in this group. Your home, your rules.

This is a safe haven for those who have been hurt and offended by the use of certain words. I hope that some day they are able to separate the word from the ill meaning intention of bigots and homophobes. Because until they do, the homophobes will still have power over them, and they (homophobes) win. And as a safe haven for them, that does not necessarily mean it is a safe place for them to have those beliefs challenged. Even by people that can sympathize with them and have been there/done that. So be it.

People will find the patterns and assign them intentions that best support their beliefs/opinions, even when no patterns have had time to be established.

Peace.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. Q center allows others to self identify, it does not insist on calling people words they

do not care for. The practice of using words that were formerly purely slurs as self identification as an attempt to 'reclaim and redeem' those words has it's roots in the 80's. Everyone knows about it. Some of us here designed that time, as it were. Just so you know, the way you speak of it sounds stilted, as if you think this 'reclaiming' is a new, cutting edge thing, not old and dated as a Donna Summer record. Most of us have already done that and moved along. It is not news that some folks use 'queer'. Many of us here were members of Queer Nation in the 80's, we chanted 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it' when you were, perhaps, in Jr High.
Perhaps thinking you are 'adding' to what we know, when you are kind of lecturing the progenators of that which you preach is a turn off to some posters?
Just so you know, I have not heard anyone claim that the use of these words was a big 'empowerment' and political act for at least 20 years. It is something most of us did and then put away, like platform shoes or coke.
I mean, I was seen in public, ie photos in the paper, wearing a tee shrit that said 'Homo On Acid'. That was then. This is now. That's a gag that is no longer needed. At least not by me.

[William769]

40. The OP is not up to interpertation.

Take it for what it is worth.

There is another Group that I know you are well aware of where you can post & say whatever you like (within community standards).

[Scruffy Rumbler]

42. Thanks for the reply. Will do.

[Call Me Wesley]

46. It's that way.

You're welcome.

[Creideiki]

50. If you can't tell the difference between a slur and self-identification

I don't think I can help you.

"No one died Ma'am. Except some..." I'll let you fill in the blank.

[Scruffy Rumbler]

51. Creidiki, I can tell the difference.

It is my understanding that this kerfluffle arose when someone was offended by another poster using a word to self-identify. I think I demonstrated in the post you responded to, that I have an understanding of the "difference between a slur and self-identification".

Being new here, (it apparently makes me creepy) and having the audacity to bring my perspective to the discussion apparently are not compatible.

As to your quote, I have no clue as to wtf you are talking about.

And by the way, I wrote my post as an inquiry to the author of the OP. He took the time to respond and I am satisfied with his response. Unless your a host here, I didn't ask for your help but then you weren't really offering any, were you?

[Prism]

52. Sigh, it's tricky tricky

I don't speak on DU as a gay man as I do offline. Mainly because the people here have made it known how they would feel about that language. I don't feel censored or stymied or less empowered as a gay man because I measure my words in the company of others out of politeness.

However, there does seem to be a palpable generational break somewhere in DU's LGBT community. My perception is that the LGBT population on DU tends to skew a bit older (say, 40s and 50s), and so some of the language and issue focus end up more geared toward that sensibility at the expense of younger engagement. It's hard to articulate, but there is definitely a perceptible tonal difference, and I don't think younger LGBTers would be particularly attracted to DU on account.

Which is fine. I'm not exactly just bouncing into my first clubs either.

I'm actually a little surprised this sort of thing didn't bubble up to the surface earlier.

It is what it is. I'm not invested much either way. But it can take some of the risque fun that oftentimes attends gay wit. I miss some of the self-deprecation that comes from frank, coarse humor when amongst fellow LGBTers. It doesn't seem overly present here, and I don't think it ever could be present here (DU has become a kind of demented Offense Central where I'm frankly surprised anyone is allowed to speak at all at this point).

I'm glad DU is getting much better on minority issues, but the Offense Wars have made it a little . . . vanilla. Kind of a boring read these days. No one seems like they're having any fun at all.

That's not what my own LGBT community is like =(

[Marrah_G]

57. I sort of liken it to this:

I might swear like a truck driver in my house or in my car, but when I am at work or visiting my mom, I just shut off certain language because it would make people uncomfortable.

[Prism]

61. Yeah, but the question then is . . .

Is DU like a place of business or more of a neighborhood social setting?

It feels more like the former while I'd actually prefer the latter.

The Purge was an important thing that needed to be spoken against. Naked homophobia and gays = pedophiles, etc. all good to speak out against.

But not Every. Little. Thing. I feel sometimes like I'm attending an activists meeting where ideology overtook practicality. No fun, no letting hair down, no relaxing self-deflation. Just amps constantly set to 11 where every stray post is Super Serious Crisis.

I've been kind of feeling this way after everyone jumped up WillParkinson's ass for no reason whatsoever.

Now that the Purge has been righted, it feels like nettles are being constantly grasped to obtain that same outrage high. It looks kind of ridiculous from the outside, and it's a big turn off. If I were, say, 18-24 and looking for a chill place to hang with LGBT Democrats, I don't think I'd select a place seemingly obsessed with Robert's Rules of Order.

[Marrah_G]

62. I think its more of a social setting

but maybe more of a mixed type social setting, with lots of different types of people.

[William769]

63. Post #57 said it best.

[MNBrewer]

58. This latest language jihad has made me less likely to post, myself

not that I use the words "queer" or "faggot" all that often, but i'm off-put by the self-righteousness that's recently reared its head.

[closeupready]

59. Today, I'm "rude". Tomorrow, I'm a "word police" officer. Do I ever get to win?

Sort of throwing that out there rhetorically; I don't take any of these discussions personally.

[okasha]

60. I have a friend who self-identifies with the ""q-word."

He's two years older than I am, which means we both lived through Anita Bryant's witch hunt, the worst of the AIDS/HIV epidemic and all the hate that went with both. I don't self-identify as such. though, and frankly, it sets my teeth on edge every time he uses it.

I think you've made a good decision here. If someone wants to read the rantings at a hate site, there's Google to take that person there.