Whats with the transphobia and the defense of transphobia on du today?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

I for one am not really shocked that its happening but am shocked at where its coming from. I am shocked that there are 2 (supposedly) lesbian members who are so blatantly transphobic and that there are people defending this.

Really sometimes I wonder what exactly I am doing on DU

[monmouth]

1. I think we have a lot of "visitors." They're getting desperate. Don't worry, they'll be

zott..er..TSd soon enough. I notice a lot of very anti-Obama posts also.

[obamanut2012]

3. They all aren't "visitors"

I agree with Lioness Priyanka. I'm perplexed by this.

[William769]

2. One person is blocked from this group want to take a guess?

[tammywammy]

4. It's very sad and pathetic

I don't get it and I definitely don't get those defending it either.

[Initech]

62. I completely agree - very sad and pathetic.

[Warpy]

5. I guess some people just have huge blind spots

and if they can't understand something (like why same sex people might be attracted to each other instead of the opposite sex or why some people feel like they were born into the wrong sex body), they reject the notion completely.

We see the same thing with mental health issues. Why don't you just snap out of it? Why can't you just ignore the voices?

Some folks just can't step outside themselves enough to understand that other folks are constructed differently. We can't change them any more than we can give them a transfusion of empathy.

(and NO, I'm not equating gender issues with mental health problems. It's just an illustration of another way people are unable to deal with the fact that everybody is not just like them)

We can only alert. And most of us do.

[Fearless]

6. Let's keep the discussion civil...

(Not that anyone hasn't so far, but remember the walls have ears and we should all be careful to say only exactly what we mean.)

Here is what I believe the blocked poster's perspective is...

I think that the problem here is similar to an issue that our community had during and after the women's rights movement. I'm sure many of our members are familiar with the LGBTQ sentiment that we were "left behind" or "ignored" by women during the civil rights movement, that they overshadowed us in a sense. Whether or not that is explicitly true, the evidence in the outcome is unfortunately one-sided. Women gained a lot of ground, whereas we did not, at least not to the same extent. There has been bitterness that I've seen go back and forth over that over the years, not explicitly and not by the majority of either group, IMHO. I think that is why we got the issues that came up this week.

The poster in question, while unknowing of the inner workings of the LGBTQ movement, an opinion I base solely on their posts this week and also in LGBT in the past, is an ardent and proud women's rights supporter. They probably lashed out because of how power was used to control them in the past. We, in a sense, control their destiny in this group. I was one of a few hosts who discussed this at large, both with each other and with the poster themselves before they were blocked from LGBT. The poster seems sore about the block. Hell I would be too. That's about all I can guess about their position.


And here is my position...
They do not have the right to alienate, denigrate, or otherwise bash any group of DUers REGARDLESS of how they feel they are being treated by them. An eye for an eye is NOT DU policy. Quite the opposite thankfully. None of our members, to my knowledge, have attacked the poster in question. Defended points and debated, yes. Attacked, absolutely not.

I don't think that the poster in question really has any clue whatsoever regarding LGBTQ issues. I believe they support equality, in a sense that they think it would be a good idea, maybe even attended a few rallies. But I don't believe they are as intimately involved with the movement as we are. Certainly they don't have as much an investment in it as us. Justification of phrases like "the queers" is all the evidence I need of this. As a gay man, I understand the nuance of the statement, of the quotations, and of the overall lack of understanding of our culture. You would never call Black people "the niggers" or its equivalent. We may be queer (some of us do identify as such), but I'm certain that none of us would identify as "queer" (with quotations around it) or of "the queers". It is a disrespect made out of ignorance of the terminology IMHO. I don't know if in that word choice they meant any harm, but I do know that the overall opinion of trans people was so ill-informed to make the "the queers" comment look downright sensible! (Though of course it isn't.)

Overall, I think that the poster and their affiliated supporters, are (1) simply lacking a foundational knowledge of the LGBTQ culture/cultures and (2) unable to differentiate between or see the hypocrisy in (a) feeling as though one group hates them and then (b) hating groups of their own.



I think I've gone on long enough, I hope it makes sense.


EDIT TO ADD: I think it's important to address also the block this poster received from LGBTQ... I personally reached out to them in the minutes/hours after the offending comment was made in the LGBT group. It came down to the poster saying something to the sort of... I don't care about your rules (in LGBT) I have a right to say what I want to say... that led me to agree with their block from the group. They had no desire to accept that we found their statement in our group unacceptable. I think this has come out again, in spades, in the last few days.

AND: In case any trans people are reading this, I hope there are... As a host of LGBT, I will do my utmost to ensure that you have a safe haven here if you choose to use it. If I have to fight back and block every single person who comes to our group to cause you harm, I will. Such disparaging comments are unwelcome on DU (as we have seen on the thread in question) and they are certainly unwelcome in the LGBT group so long as I (and I believe all of our hosts) sit here. Unlike with the poster in question, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that fighting for equal rights for all people is the ultimate goal, even if gay rights in particular affects me.

[DURHAM D]

24. Off topic but important -

"think that the problem here is similar to an issue that our community had during and after the women's rights movement. I'm sure many of our members are familiar with the LGBTQ sentiment that we were "left behind" or "ignored" by women during the civil rights movement"

I don't know where this comes from. It is revised history. At first women were ignored during the anti-war movement, civil rights movement and then the gay rights movement. As a lesbian who was in the room but not at the table in the beginning of the movement I find this statement offensive. It was a struggle for lesbians to break into the male dominated "gay" rights movement and get our issues included. Notice it was not originally the "gay and lesbian" rights movement. It was the "gay" rights movement - and still is.

I wish I had a dime for every time some gay man said that "lesbian" could not be included in the organizational name because the word turned people off, it was offensive to everyone (including the gay men) and if we were more visable the movement would fail. It also usually included a comment that gay men had the economic clout within the movement and lesbians were unable to contribute much monetarily. In other words, we were just there to make coffee for the guys.

Understand that I have no anger about this matter and we have all moved on.

Edit: I also want to comment on this - "Women gained a lot of ground, whereas we did not, at least not to the same extent."

A reality check - the women's movement had just lost (or were losing) the effort to pass the ERA. So saying we gained a lot ground when we failed our one major objective is just not true. AJFTR - women are still losing ground but thankfully the LGBT movement is going forward.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. i think both of you are right. Lesbians did get shunned when the gay rights movement began

and lesbians also got shunned by the feminists movement as being too radical a position to take.

[Fearless]

26. In terms of whether anyone actively excluded any particular group...

I couldn't say. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Yet, there is the perception by many that it did happen, which is as good as it happening in terms of the issue at hand.

[DURHAM D]

27. So let us start here -

to change the perception.

Nasty posters are just nasty people. Don't assign them other motivations. They are not people you would want to serve on a committe with or have in your home.

[yardwork]

29. An excellent point. "Don't assign them other motivations."

We just don't know. Sometimes I speculate that somebody MUST be a troll because I don't understand how they could otherwise say the things they're saying, but I see that that kind of speculation really isn't helpful because then people jump on my speculations instead of looking at the actual posts and assessing them for what they say. I realize that I can muddy the waters when I speculate.

People's posts speak for themselves.

[obamanut2012]

30. +1

[Vanje]

66. There ya go.

I do not blame Feminists, in general, or the DU Feminist group, for the behavior of one individual.

[Fearless]

81. That I definitely agree with.

[Fearless]

82. To think of people solely based on their actions foregoes the human faculty of empathy.

My personal belief is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove that they are not worth it anymore. Regarding the poster in question, maybe they have reached that point. Certainly I don't want them disrupting our group any more than the rest of us. Hell, some of the feminist group has said the same even about their group. But I digress.

We each should use our own beliefs to determine how we feel about others. I feel that there is good intentions inside most if not all people. So, I am compelled to see look for reasons for conflicts in terms of my beliefs and take them not only at face value, but wonder about the meaning of what is said/done and why it was done. I do not think that a vast majority of people are purposefully hurtful without cause. I refuse to believe that the human condition allows for such things.

[yardwork]

83. I took D's post to mean essentially what you are saying.

I can tend to go too far the other way. If I start to suspect that somebody is up to no good, my empathy goes out the window. Slowing down and taking things at face value instead of reading more into posts than may be intended helps me.

[Fearless]

85. Perhaps we are talking about opposite situations?

If you're right, and you probably are, DurhamD was talking about how sometimes we jump to conclusions about people and throw out a more rational understanding because we become heated and our emotions take over?

What I was originally commenting on was the opposite, perhaps I took it wrong. I assumed that DurhamD was taking issue with my original statement talking about why the poster in question in this thread MAY be acting like they are and that we should try to see what might be behind their words before calling them an outright bigot in league with Republicans. I doubt we would ever agree with them, yet at least maybe we can see what causes them to talk/act like they do, and then maybe come to an understanding that the things said were perhaps out of ignorance and not malice. At least I hope so.

If I mistook what DurhamD said, I apologize!

[yardwork]

86. I don't know. I can only say how I reacted to the suggestion.

[yardwork]

28. Backing you up on all those facts.

It's easy to fracture the rainbow coalition. We have to stay strong by keeping everybody included - all humans. There is only ONE human rights movement. This movement seeks to achieve justice, rights, and equity for ALL people.

If we're not part of that movement then we might as well be Log Cabin Republicans.

Solidarity. It's the only way.

[justiceischeap]

7. I think some of it is just plain ignorance

And I mean that in the sense of lack of education. I'm a member of the LGBTQ community and I don't get all the nuances. I have a friend of a friend whose transgendered and I always worried when he'd come to visit that I'd say something insulting because of my lack of education. We had some great discussions but I still felt stupid for having to ask some of the things I had to ask.

I also think, some of it may be, a wee bit of knowledge that makes the person think they know more than they really do.

[Fearless]

8. +1!

I think the willingness to reach out and ask those "stupid" questions makes all the difference. A person can be unknowing as you suggested that you were of some things (hell who isn't), and a WHOLE other thing to know you don't know something AND not want to gain that understanding.

I'd say that at this point that person in question has gone even a step further... claiming they know something, and vehemently protesting that people are even asking them to reconsider asking questions.

[justiceischeap]

9. Some people you just cannot engage with

They don't want to be engaged... they want to think they know everything (my Dad is like that) even if you can prove that what they claim is wrong. Unfortunately, some people stop making the effort to even try educating people like that. It's not worth the effort.

[Fearless]

10. I think A LOT of us have dads like that...

At least I know I do.

Call me an optimist though, or stubborn, I try not to give up on people like that. But, clearly some are so far beyond reproach that cutting our losses wouldn't be the worst idea.

[Jamastiene]

16. The poster in question will out and out tell you they will post whatever they want

no matter how politely you try to ask them to stop. I've experienced that myself in the past with the poster in question.

Also, the repeated references to "pearl clutching" goes back to the Rick Warren fiasco. There was a lot of complaining ABOUT the GLBT community on DU when we mentioned he was anti-gay and that we didn't like the fact he was doing the invocation at President Obama's swearing in ceremony. They said we were "pearl clutching" then. I don't think a lot of people actually know the history of that phrase on DU, but I would not doubt the poster in question knows EXACTLY what they are doing when they constantly use that phrase in reference to the GLBT community on DU. They only ever use that phrase WHEN talking about us. Mods used to delete posts with that phrase used against us that way. Now, it's up to juries, who might not remember that history. I'm not sure alerting it would even work.

At least in here, we can have some freedom from that phrase being used against us. On the rest of DU, I'm not sure what we can do about it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. +10,000

esp the part where you say 'They said we were "pearl clutching" then. I don't think a lot of people actually know the history of that phrase on DU, but I would not doubt the poster in question knows EXACTLY what they are doing when they constantly use that phrase in reference to the GLBT community on DU.'

[Starry Messenger]

11. Some of it seemed to be transphobic trollery...it's the defense of it that has me confused.

That whole "woman-identified" idea is kind of distasteful too. It *might* refer to being against patriarchy (that seemed to be brought in much later as an explanation, though...), but it is so close to the kind of bigotry that trans women have to endure, I don't think that's a bright phrase to use.

I also don't like that it sets up a dichotomy between lesbian and/or trans* feminist ideas and straight/cis (or variations) feminist ideas, like some are "woman identified" and some aren't. That's always bothered me.

[justiceischeap]

12. I think the defense boils down to what happened here a month ago

with the pageant post and the subsequent banning. Some people see it automatically as us against them--when it's more of pointing out why something is transphobic and not wanting to listen because of whom is imparting that it's transphobic... did that make sense?

[Starry Messenger]

13. I think so.

Also, there seems to be some idea that feminists are being targeted for banning and that there is a double standard in place. But I still think there are some strange "who is and who isn't 'woman-identified'" biases being created in the meta arguments around all of this. I could be wrong though, I'm coffee-crashing and that long thread in H&M took about an hour to read.

[ZombieHorde]

14. Can I see a link to the transphobic post(s)? nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. here was the original post. which was bad enough

but the ensuing apologists for it, were IMO the bigger problem

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11391866#post15

[ZombieHorde]

18. OK. There is some strong language in that post and some of the following posts.

The language is divisive, but what is actually being said?

My interpretation of the posts is women's interests, transwomen's interests, and gay men's interests are not always identical. Another point seemed to be feminism is a subcategory on DU, even though a majority of humans are women.

Do you agree with my interpretation, and if not, what is your interpretation of those posts?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. even when our interests are not aligned, its not ok to make or defend bigoted comments

thats how i saw it.

there was a transphobic post. someone rushed to defend it. then many others rushed to defend the defender.

also who besides a raging bigot blames trans-women for the problems of internalized misogyny? seriously?

[obamanut2012]

20. I think Meta is full of how posters "interpreted" the posts

The hugely long thread by Moriah in Meta. I honestly don't feel it should be hashed out anew in another group or forum. If you absolutely think it should be for some reason, mayhap another group or forum may be better than LBGT.

The most I will say is that I strongly disagree with your interpretation, and I'm by far not the only one.

Again, the answers to your questions are in the Meta thread.

[ZombieHorde]

21. Which thread in Meta do you feel most accurately represents your feelings on this issue?

Which one do you think offers the best learning experience?

[justiceischeap]

22. I think this should answer your questions

You may want a drink and a snack, it's an awfully long thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124041878

Even after the person in question was banned, which set-off its own special sh*t storm, the defense for or rationalization of transphobic comments made to defend or rationalize the person banned are incredible. And frankly, if something is said against the LGBTQ community and any of us point that out, then we're participating in some war that doesn't exist.

[obamanut2012]

23. This is only one thread

Which I believe you know.

[Occulus]

31. Absolutely no surprise at all to see one username.

I need to learn to see beyond that shit.

[TeeYiYi]

32. Well, first of all...

There's entirely too much lgbt discussion going on in the feminist group. If they have so much to say about lesbians and transexuals, they need to bring their ”concerns” to the lgbt forum to be properly aired out. To do otherwise gives the impression that they're talking behind our backs about topics that they appear to be only guessing about.

That said, I feel that sera bellum was unfairly ts'd. Her comment about lgbtqwtflolbbq was a legitimate concern to her that deserved honest discussion but she should have used more sensitivity in bringing it up. Hidden was fair. Tombstoned was not.

It is my opinion that lgbtqwtflolbbq is a subject that would be better addressed in the lgbt forum. It is not an issue that has anything to do with feminists. There is not an ”f” in the real alphabet menagerie that represents the gay community and to suggest that there is is to be disingenuous.

I spent several hours heatedly ”discussing” this very topic with my best friend of 30 years, when Chaz was getting so much press a few months ago. To be honest, I was shocked that this dividing line still exists in the gay community, but it does. So, this its a genuine lgbt topic, and not one to be considered lightly.

I suspect that feldspar was a shit stirring troll and if so, got what ”they” deserved. To suggest that male to female transsexuals are ”gynergy vampires” was crass. There's no way that comment came from a member of the lgbt community, lesbian or otherwise.

If I'm mistaken and feldspar truly is a gay woman then I would suggest that her priorities are seriously skewed.

TYY

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. incidentally feldspar claimed that she and sarabellum were partners

and i dont remember why sarahbellum was ts'd.

[TeeYiYi]

34. I can't imagine...

...that there's any truth to that. The suggestion makes me question sera bellum's identity.

I wonder if the admins noticed something up with her ip address. Maybe sera and feldspar are the same troll.

My understanding was that sera bellum was nuked over the lgbtqwtflolbbq comment.

TYY

[obamanut2012]

36. Sera Bellum is an active poster

And declared today she and Feldspar are FAAB Lesbian Life Partners.

So.....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. that is really trans-phobic.

seriously. gross.

[obamanut2012]

40. Yeah, I read it and actually gasped aloud

Just ugh.

[yardwork]

42. I just asked the poster why they identify that way.

My first reaction was shock. My second was to ask them to explain.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11392087#post4

[obamanut2012]

43. I was going to

But was afraid of blowback, so didn't.

[yardwork]

46. I'm sure that my post will be alerted on and screamed at.

[obamanut2012]

47. lol

Wait, why am I laughing?!

[obamanut2012]

35. Sera Bellum wasn't PRRed, she just posted in teh Feminists Group

And said that she and Feldspar are lesbian life partners, and she and Feldspar are FAAB -- Female Assigned At Birth. Isn't that a nice sentiment???

And, Kitty Herding used the lolwtfbbq thing. A poster who mysteriously showed up after Feldspar was Prred.

Did Sera Bellum also use that????????

And, before anyone comes here and alerts on this: I did not say Sera Bellum was a troll, I said her "FAAB lesbian life partner" apparently was. I do, however, take offense at the use of "FAAB" because of the context. In 40 years, I've never had another woman introduce herself to me as an FAAB Lesbian. It's not something we tend to do.

[TeeYiYi]

37. sara bellum is still here?

... I thought kitty herding was still here and sara bellum was nuked.

Why would you assume anyone would alert on your post? It's a conversation you and I are having and no one else's business outside this group.

TYY

[TeeYiYi]

39. Oh, and...

FAAB... Who talks like that? Robots?

TYY

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. people who have bigoted against transgender people talk like that (and robots)

[TeeYiYi]

44. Wow...

I'd never heard that before and you're right... Why say it unless you're trying to make a bigoted point?

And it has its own acronym? ... How quaint.

TYY

[TeeYiYi]

48. I just checked...

...and it looks like sera bellum was reinstated. That's good because I didn't agree with the tombstone.

TYY

[yardwork]

51. She was reinstated hours after she was banned. There was a thread about it at the time.

But I have to say, I'm not comfortable with this Female Assigned At Birth thing. Edited to add - I have asked for an explanation from the OP.

[TeeYiYi]

55. I have to agree...

FAAB as it applies to lesbians doesn't make sense. Intersexed maybe, but that's a new one on me.

Intersexed is the only explanation that makes sense...gender assigned at birth as if there was some question.

TYY

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. gender is always assigned at birth. its how it gets on your birth certificate

[TeeYiYi]

61. I understand what you're saying...

...My point being that gender at birth just is...unless there is some ambiguity ie: intersexed, in which case it would need to be assigned.

But I get your point from a legal paperwork standpoint.

TYY

[Morning Dew]

49. On DU2 sera bellum was TakesAVillage_People

and was (or claimed to be) partners with TAPat.

So, change in partners or user name change, I guess.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2880482&mesg_id=2880482

TakesAVillage_People claims to be TAPat's "other" - post 68

[justiceischeap]

50. Is it possible that Sera Bellum, Feldspar, etc.

are actually all the same person?

And I apologize now if asking this question is somehow against the rules... and it is, please let me know and I will delete this comment immediately.

[William769]

52. I PPR that poster for that reason and a couple of others resons.

Skinner over rode my decision.

I still stand by my decision and believe that it will all work out in the end.

And anyone who thinking about alerting on this post,I am only giving information about a my MIR decision.

[TeeYiYi]

76. I think you are correct...

...that it will all work out in the end.

Give a person enough rope...

TYY

[yardwork]

118. EarlG terminated the troll today.

Edited to add - your instinct about this has been vindicated. You were right.

[TeeYiYi]

53. It's looking...

...VERY possible from where I'm sitting. I hope not but I'm starting to have my doubts.

I think your suggestion that FAAB has something to do with being intersexed is the only plausible explanation. Why else would gender need to be assigned at birth?

Hopefully an expert on the subject will weigh in...

TYY

[justiceischeap]

54. Just found this about FAAB

Female Assigned at Birth (FAAB): Assigned female sex at birth, identifies as male; Prominent masculine &/or male component.

– Transmasculine, Transman, Transguy/boy/boi, FTM, F2M

http://www.transqueerwellness.org/Trans101

[yardwork]

56. But the poster says that she and her partner identify as lesbians. FAAB lesbians, she said.

Are there males who identify as lesbians?

I await clarification from the OP. I don't want to jump to any conclusions. This is new terminology to me.

[TeeYiYi]

58. There are...

...but I don't think they fall into the FAAB category as I now understand it, having just read the definition.

I think the poster claiming FAAB status may have just outed themselves as a pretender.

TYY

[yardwork]

64. Ok, I've censored myself twice because I am really trying not to jump to any conclusions.

But I'm feeling more and more uncomfortable. The OP has clarified that she is not male. She was born female and continues to be female. So why on earth is it necessary to identify as "Female Assigned At Birth" unless she is comparing herself to transgender people and implying that that that is somehow better to be a female "assigned at birth?"

I am trying not to jump to conclusions but I am feeling very very uncomfortable. There are groups of people who are incredibly, viciously bigoted and hateful toward transgender people. They are out there in the real world and they are not nice at all. I hope that this isn't what's happening here.

[TeeYiYi]

68. My understanding...

...of the FAAB moniker is that it applies to bois, dykes and preop/postop female to male transgendered who identify and roll as male.

The person who is throwing this term around is most clearly misappropriating its definition as she clearly does not self identify as male.

And why all the lgbt talk in that other forum? Doesn't it belong over here? I suppose hashing out the intricacies of a concealed gun permit would be appropriate in the religion forum? ...

TYY

[obamanut2012]

73. Most of my straight male friends wish they were lesbians

But, all masrt-assness aside: NO!

[Vanje]

75. I'm sure its because of the sensible shoes!

Who does not like sensible shoes!

[yardwork]

77. Actually, I don't think they like the sensible shoes, Vanje. I think they deplore them!

[obamanut2012]

79. lol

[TeeYiYi]

57. Interesting...

...Brings up even more questions in my mind now, as it appears the person claiming it doesn't truly understand the definition.

TYY

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. IMO this is like some one who claims there is nothing wrong in having white pride

except its pride at being cisgender.

[yardwork]

65. That is how this sounds to me.

[obamanut2012]

72. Not surprised the term was used wrong

Since Sera Bellum's partner used several other terms wrong, including genderqueer.

[obamanut2012]

70. My opinion?

You know it my opinion.

[Morning Dew]

87. I don't know if they are. Admin could check IP numbers but

if they're partners, they may be using the same computer. So, there's that.

Sorry for the tardiness in replying - i was at work, just home now.

[justiceischeap]

88. No problem!

I think whether or not they are the same person isn't the biggest concern but that they seemed to have been banned a lot and reinstated. There's a whole sub-thread about it in the Feminists group of usernames that have been banned and it appears the same person resurrecting him/herself using the same language, etc.

[foo_bar]

89. here's another one:

Last I heard, bobbolink, feminism was indeed about sisterhood not the “feminine” arts. I’ve known quite a number of men who practiced the “feminine” a whole hell of a lot better than I ever have and I am a FAAB; a woman. The feminine has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or Women’s Liberation, as it was once called. In fact it is quite the opposite.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x508075 ("SargassoSea&quot

I have a question for you: How would you react if your girlfriend decided that she was no longer interested in performing penis-centric "sex" with you? Or suppose she insisted you stop using pornography?

Both of these scenarios are patriarchy-busting in nature but my guess is that you'd be finding a new girlfriend asap instead of doing REAL pro-feminist work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4771753#4775061 ("SargassoSea", taking the reins from "Evolve_Already"

I feel so... mainstream. I get the sense that these sockpuppets are utterly sincere, so unless this is some kind of freeper parody of a feminist (or a lesbian), we might be seeing a rare color of the rainbow akin to FTMTF (non-male-identified pro-masculinity anti-MTF gynergy-Van-Helsing feminist?)

[yardwork]

90. I don't think it's pro-masculine. The poster seems to be using FAAB in a different way than usual.

[foo_bar]

91. I was going by "The feminine has absolutely nothing to do with feminism or Women’s Liberation ...

... as it was once called. In fact it is quite the opposite"

I don't know if that poster was the same person as evolve/village/sera, but they also self-identified FAAB (in this unconventional sense) as they were suggesting femininity was incompatible with feminism, which seems consistent with the (unidirectional?) transphobia they or their partner demonstrated the other day, but I suppose it isn't fair to equate anti-femininity with pro-masculinity if the poster is against animus/anima-type archetypes in general.

[yardwork]

92. That's a logical interpretation. Another possibility is word salad. If you follow me.

Some people like to toss a lot of words together and bounce around the internet with dozens of identities, all of them designed to get close to groups of people and then annoy and irritate them. This floats their boat.

[TeeYiYi]

93. Yup...

...word salad. This sock's undoing.

And a sock by any other name is still a sock...add sargasso sea.

TYY

[obamanut2012]

94. It's a CC Feminist Parody

They aren't sincere, imo.

[foo_bar]

95. if that's the case, they seem to have researched the part

The performance was persuasive enough to be defended on DU (assuming the defenders weren't in on the joke), but I'm open to the idea of disruptors inhabiting a role merely to ingratiate themselves with their erstwhile foes. Still, this poster's line of thought appears to be consistent with a particular sub-strain of feminist theory, one which uses "FAAB" as an anti-TS shibboleth (and sincerity isn't an excuse for prejudice, in any event):

so regarding the question, “if FAAB were removed from the feminist game, what would change?” the answer appears to be this: MAAB would also be removed from the game. and with it, the fact that THE crucial line drawn in the sand for millenia has been based on the known dangers to women of the penis, and the creation of a master class based solely and demonstrably on the ability to cause female-specific harm, would become invisible.

it would signal the end of radical feminism, in other words.

http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2011/02/12/decoding-faabmaab/

If trans activists have any confidence whatsoever in their own agenda and the assumptions listed above, then I believe they should be able to handle critique and analysis without resorting to blanket accusations of transphobia.

http://fabmatters.wordpress.com/trans/ ("FAB Matters&quot

versus:

The vast majority of feminists are perfectly accepting of trans people. As far as I can discern, the transphobia comes from a small, though noisy minority. Unfortunately, this minority seems to be influential, and still get the platform to speak: I write this post after seeing that people are still paying attention to Julie Bindel, who spouted transphobic thought in an Oxford student newspaper today.

<...>

Transphobia has no place in feminism. None whatsoever. You can dress it up in as much theory as you want, you can stick your hands over your ears and deny you’ve done anything wrong, you can wilfully twist the truth into lies, but if you’re transphobic, you have no place in feminism.

http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2011/11/28/transphobia-has-no-place-in-feminism/

[obamanut2012]

97. I think the history of it

shows it is, imo. What has been told via links in different threads, and what you can find in a search.

God help me, but I could sign on to FR and post just like a Freeper. All you need to know is some of the jargon, ideas, and values, and then just amp it up.

[obamanut2012]

71. Interesting -- thanks!

[Vanje]

67. Sarabellum

referred to Sen Barney Frank in as a.................... No. I'm not going to say it. I dont talk like that.

[William769]

69. I'll do it for you.

"lispy queen".

I hope you understand Vanje.

[Vanje]

74. I do!

[yardwork]

78. That's not very polite, is it. Not very polite at all. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.......

[Remember Me]

96. Are you saying that there should be no discussion of lesbian issues

in the Feminist group?

No discussion of LGBT issues in the feminist forum? That the ONLY place to discuss those issues is here? Or some LIMIT to how much is discussed?

Or just what DO you mean by these three sentences:

There's entirely too much lgbt discussion going on in the feminist group. If they have so much to say about lesbians and transexuals, they need to bring their ”concerns” to the lgbt forum to be properly aired out. To do otherwise gives the impression that they're talking behind our backs about topics that they appear to be only guessing about.

[yardwork]

99. I think that discussion of these issues belongs in both this group and the feminist group.

In fact, I've begun reading and posting in the Feminist group since this discussion began a few days ago. I'm enjoying it, too. Very interesting and I'm meeting lots of new people.

[DURHAM D]

100. Is is cold up there north of the border? nt

[Remember Me]

102. ??? The only border I'm north of

is the Florida/Georgia border. But it is pretty cold tonight.

Oh, I get it. YOU think I'm an Iverglass sock puppet. LOL. No, but I'm flattered: She is way smarter, better educated, younger and richer than I am.

Shoot. Now I'm depressed. Gee, thanks a LOT, Durham!

[CreekDog]

104. iverglas is also north of that border

[Remember Me]

106. Yeah, but it's not the ONLY border she's north of.

There are quite a few others in between the Canadian border and FL/GA. How many prolly depends on your route.

[CreekDog]

108. well you know more about where she lives than i do

i stand corrected.

[William769]

109. ROFLMAO!

[obamanut2012]

110. oh my

[Remember Me]

111. Canada is all I know.

I don't know if it's east or west (is there anything central?). Just "Canada," and that leaves a LOT of territory. LOL.

[Shining Jack]

105. "She is way smarter, better educated, younger and richer than I am."

This could apply to a toad as well.

[Remember Me]

107. Are you saying that a toad is smarter, better educated, etc. than I am?

Are you REALLY saying that?

[Ms. Toad]

114. Ahem...don't bring me into this skirmish. n/t

[TeeYiYi]

117. lol...You can pick your friends...

...and you can pick your nose,... but it's been said that you can't pick your friend's nose...or ms. toad's nose...or something....

TYY

[Remember Me]

119. So why are you ignoring my questions about your post?

Surely you saw my post -- ?? If not, you might want to scroll up just a bit, or check YourPosts tab.

Thanks.

[TeeYiYi]

123. Here you go Remember Me...

Here's my response after 3 days:

Don't flatter yourself ...

You're assuming that I care enough about what you have to say to ignore you. Not only am I not ignoring you, I'm only now acknowledging your post because I accidentally ran across it this evening.

Next time, strike while the iron is still hot.

If you have a question for me, feel free to ask it. Just don't get hurt when I don't obsessively check for your replies on a 3 day old thread that would have been archived already on du2...

TYY

[Remember Me]

126. Let me introduce you

to a feature here at DU3 -- it's called "My Posts" and it's in a tab at the top of most pages. Very handy.

Have a GREAT day.

[Ms. Toad]

120. ewwww. n/t

[yardwork]

112. Why would you jump to the conclusion that anybody thinks that you are an Iverglas sock puppet?

Who said anything about that?

[William769]

101. I'm flattered that we seem to be the talk of the town.

[Remember Me]

103. Are you?

THAT I wasn't aware of. Seems I've spent all my time on DU the past 2 days in like maybe 3 threads. And I didn't even think you were "the talk of the town" there, but of course I could be wrong.

Been nice chatting with ya'll. Bye now.

[jumptheshadow]

80. Some people need to be educated...

and there are some remarkably fluent and insightful people who are posting on the referenced threads.

Let's face it, some lesbians in the past have not been open-minded about groups or individuals who don't meet excessively purist criteria for inclusion in their communities. Trans lesbians and bisexuals have been ostracized for simply being true to themselves, as have any women who don't fit into the cookie cutter molds defined by certain lesbians with very narrow minds.

I wish we could wave a wand, and open people's eyes to the pain they cause. It's something that should be understandable to anybody anywhere on the LGBT spectrum because they have probably had to endure adversity themselves.

For now, social pressure and the skillful and patient use of words are probably the best means to bring change.

That's why I am happy we are on DU, where we can grow if we are willing to listen.

[yardwork]

84. It's been a good day on DU, on the whole. Lots of good discussion going on.

[William769]

98. Hosts the alert I sent has nothing to do with the OP.

Please see thread mentioned in alert.

[yardwork]

113. The troll has finally been tossed from DU.

It's really disappointing to me that a few DUers persisted in defending this troll right up to the bitter end. However, it has finally been escorted from the building. I'm sure it will try to come back. Apparently, disrupting DU is a hobby.

[TeeYiYi]

115. Oh wow,...

...on an otherwise totally depressing weekend, something that FINALLY makes sense.

TYY

[Fearless]

122. Good to hear!

Can't wait to see the next incarnation.

[Behind the Aegis]

124. Which one?!

Under the bridge is so full, they're starting to come topside!

[Starry Messenger]

125. Fantastic.