Gun control hypocrisy at its best

[hack89]

Colorado is working to pass legislation to ban high capacity magazines. This law, if passed, would ban the sale of magazines with a capacity greater than 15. Yet the law specifically says it is legal to manufacture high capacity magazines in Colorado. Why? Because the Colorado based company Magpul is one of the largest makes of high capacity magazines in America and have threatened to move out of state with 200 jobs.

"The safety of Colorado's public requires the banning of high capacity mags but we have no qualms in manufacturing them for sale in other states."

[holdencaufield]

1. Politically-motivated faux-outrage ...

... is a tricky thing to handle.

Give them a break. They're doing their best to pander AND stay elected.

[littlewolf]

2. magpul has already said if this becomes law

they are leaving, they haven't said were but you can bet
Perry is meeting with them. as well as other Red states.
what is that 200 jobs, plus all the support jobs that go with it.

[Callisto32]

7. Hopefully they will come join Lancer in PA.

Maybe I can get a job in their office of counsel.....

[DonP]

3. "...at its best" - That's a pretty high bar

That's pretty hypocritical but I don't know...

Between Bloomie, Rahm, Nutter and their ilk demanding civilian disarmament, while surrounded by automatic weapon carrying guards.

To the DU member in Meta that wanted drone strikes on gun owners not handing over all their firearms to "stop the violence", there's a lot of high level hypocrisy to compete with out there.

[Robb]

4. That's what Fox News says. Can you cite the law?

Specifically the part that "specifically says it is legal to manufacture high capacity magazines in Colorado"?

[hack89]

8. Do you have to always be so rude and confrontational?

anyway - I don't read FOX.

I do read the Denver Post and CBS:

The bill says that if an individual already owns a high-capacity magazine on the effective date of the bill's becoming law, then that individual may retain it. Prosecutors would bear the burden of proof that an owner violated the new stricture.

However, manufacturers would still be able to produce these magazines within the state.

Read more: Colorado House Committee passes amended gun magazine limit - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_22573432?source=commented-#ixzz2KuQ1TlrC

But the committee chairman, Rep. Daniel Kagan, D-Cherry Hills Village, insisted there is no need to move.

“Your understanding of the bill is completely wrong,” Kagan said. “There is no restriction on manufacturing high-capacity magazines or anything else in the state of Colorado.”

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/02/13/company-threatens-to-leave-colorado-if-ammo-limit-law-is-passed/

[Robb]

11. So Magpul is lying?

[hack89]

12. I would believe a Democratic state rep over a weapons manufacturer

wouldn't you?

Companies lie regardless of their business - do you think there are truly ethical corporations?

[Callisto32]

13. Do you think there are truly ethical politicians?

After all, the .gov is just the biggest, most powerful corporation of them all.

Corporations are just people.

That's like asking "do you think there are truly ethical people?"

Yes, yes I do.

[otohara]

57. Yesterday in Chamber it Was 200

today it's 600.

So is Magpul lying about their job losses if they leave...yes!

[jmg257]

9. This may help...HB 1224

"The bill prohibits the sale, transfer, or possession of an
ammunition feeding device that is capable of accepting, or that can be
readily converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition or more
than 5 shotgun shells (large-capacity magazine). A person may possess
a large-capacity magazine if he or she owns the large-capacity magazine
on the effective date of the bill and maintains continuous possession of
the large-capacity magazine.

A person who sells, transfers, or possesses a large-capacity
magazine in violation of the new provision commits a class 2
misdemeanor.

{18-12-303.} A large-capacity magazine that is manufactured in Colorado on or
after the effective date of the bill must include a serial number and the
date upon which the large-capacity magazine was manufactured or
assembled. The serial number and date must be legibly and conspicuously
engraved or cast upon the outer surface of the large-capacity magazine.

The Colorado bureau of investigation may promulgate rules that may
require a large-capacity magazine that is manufactured on or after the
effective date of the bill to bear identifying information in addition to the
serial number and date of assembly.

A person who manufactures a large-capacity magazine in Colorado
in violation of the new provision commits a class 2 misdemeanor.
...

edit: http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/7E6713B015E62E6F87257B0100813CB5?Open&file=1224_01.pdf

[MicaelS]

10. Here's a pdf of the bill...

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/clics2013a/csl.nsf/fsbillcont/7E6713B015E62E6F87257B0100813CB5?Open&file=1224_01.pdf

A large-capacity magazine that is manufactured in Colorado on or
after the effective date of the bill must include a serial number and the
date upon which the large-capacity magazine was manufactured or
assembled. The serial number and date must be legibly and conspicuously
engraved or cast upon the outer surface of the large-capacity magazine.
The Colorado bureau of investigation may promulgate rules that may
require a large-capacity magazine that is manufactured on or after the
effective date of the bill to bear identifying information in addition to the
serial number and date of assembly.

A person who manufactures a large-capacity magazine in Colorado
in violation of the new provision commits a class 2 misdemeanor.

[appal_jack]

14. Dingbat pwnage in effect.

As hack 89 has already pointed out:


Read more: Colorado House Committee passes amended gun magazine limit - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_22573432?source=commented-#ixzz2KuQ1TlrC

But the committee chairman, Rep. Daniel Kagan, D-Cherry Hills Village, insisted there is no need to move.

“Your understanding of the bill is completely wrong,” Kagan said. “There is no restriction on manufacturing high-capacity magazines or anything else in the state of Colorado.”


So the OP is correct. And furthermore, Magpul sounds like they will choose to take their business elsewhere, should Colorado go forward with this inane law. That is their prerogative. I wish Democrats would embrace the 2nd Amendment more fully. The result would not only be good for consistency with respect to Constitutional rights as a whole, it would also likely be good for business in whichever Democratic state should take the lead on this front.

Daily, I am chagrined by the shit that Repub's are pulling here in NC, and always am I working to change things for the better here in this state. However, the (small, thin, inadequate) silver lining is that I don't have to worry much about gun rights here at the state level for now. Now why the fuck (on this front only) should I be much more comfortable about my rights with the Repub's in charge? It does not make sense...

-app

[MicaelS]

5. Magpul's Facebook page says it will cost 600 jobs.

https://www.facebook.com/magpul

Leadership team is at the Capitol again today, holding the line. Regardless of a manufacturing exemption or not, if HB1224 passes, we have to go. We can't disappoint our customers nor ignore our convictions. Anyone who votes in favor of this bill votes to drive over 600 jobs out of CO. We'll have some contact information for some further assistance coming up soon.

[otohara]

54. I Heard His Letter Read Out Loud in the Chamber

and he (the owner) said 200.

Changing the numbers already to gain support?

[MicaelS]

55. 200 directly plus another 400 supply chain jobs.

From their Facebook page:

Magpul Industries directly employs 200 people, supports another 400 supply-chain jobs, and contributes over $85 million annually to Colorado’s economy. Doug Smith, Chief Operating Officer for Magpul, says that it is a difficult position to be in. "We could choose to stay in a state that wants our jobs and revenue, but not our products, and lose half the jobs we are fighting to save, or potentially the entire business, when our customers stop buying. Or, we can take the company and those 600 jobs out of Colorado to continue our growth and the growth of American manufacturing in a state that shares our values. This is not really a choice. It's an unfortunate and inevitable result of the actions of the Legislature if this bill passes."

[otohara]

56. Record Stores & Book Stores Gone

lots of jobs are lost everyday.

Since this guy serves the military, why does it matter where he is?

[MicaelS]

58. Because people who usually start and run their own businesses

Selling guns and gun related equipment are usually strong supporters of the 2nd Amendment and the RKBA. And this guy just doesn't serve the military, his magazines are the some of the bests one made, and civilians buy lots of them.

[otohara]

59. More Civilians Don't Buy Them

he can go to Wyoming.
Short move up north where mass shooting don't seem to be a problem.
They just shoot each other with one or two bullets.

I just love how you think the minority is in charge on this business of guns and murder.
They aren't you aren't - we are not backing down.
Not this time.

[gejohnston]

60. actually, we don't shoot each other

Chicago does more than enough for us. Most murders are concentrated in a few areas of large cities. Since mass shootings number in the double digits each year..........................................

Actually, it is the minority.

[otohara]

61. Yet The Rural Foks Want To Rule As If They Were The Majority

that's all I heard in yesterdays debate in CO.

I care more about people over guns. Like my neighbor, who's ex-husband who picked up their 9 year old last year - took him to the mountains and pulled a murder/suicide on the boy last year.

She will never be the same, gun owners and republican's could give a rats ass about the victims. They just want to bury the dead and hope the rest of us will continue being quiet and let the killing continue.

I'm taking off my Obama bumper sticker today after a creepy encounter with an Obama hater yesterday who approached my car. If looks could kill, I'd be dead. For all I know, he could have had a gun on him or one in his car.

[gejohnston]

62. a gun law would not have prevented it

the post hoc ergo propter hoc international comparisons aside, there is no evidence that gun laws save lives or reduce crime. Should a law abiding rural person be blamed for drug dealers killing each other in Denver or Chicago? That is what it amounts to. Who puts those guns in their hands and gives them an economic incentive to kill each other? Drug users. That makes bong owners more responsible for gun violence than rural or suburban gun owners.

You are also operating from a false premise, rural CO residents are not trying to force anything on you. You are forcing it on them, that gives your side the burden of trying to prove the validity of your point. Simply claiming "we don't feel you need one" isn't a valid reason.

[otohara]

63. Yes & Gun Owners Are Quick to Point That Out

because they are not only against tiny changes, but any changes.

My neighbors son was killed legally.
Does that make you feel better?

[gejohnston]

64. was killed legally?

Murder/suicides like that are not uncommon in Japan. In the US, that is counted as one murder and two suicides. In Japan, that would be counted as two suicides.

[otohara]

68. In Japan They Don't Shoot Their Children

in Japan they celebrate children, they also have respect for one another, something we don't have here. In Japan if you commit suicide, your family will get the life insurance. It's always been that way and unemployed depressed men take that way out to sometimes save their family.

I edited my post, the boy was killed with a legally obtained gun. Yippee ... at least it was legally obtained, like most guns are.

[gejohnston]

71. Yes there is a Children's day that is part of Golden Week

but they do stab or gas their kids and themselves, often it is the mothers.
http://www.japanpsychiatrist.com/Abstracts/Shinju.html

Yippee ... at least it was legally obtained, like most guns are.

not in most murders. Most US murders are criminals killing each other, or mistaken identity, with illegal guns.

[otohara]

65. We Are The Majority - We Won The Elections of 2012

My neighbors son was killed by a legally obtained gun.
That doesn't make me feel any better, it makes me feel worse.
Any disgruntled husband can go to Walmart, grab a gun legally and
go kill their off spring to punish the wife.

Guns over people, guns over people, guns over people.

[gejohnston]

66. over the econony

the convention had two NRA supported/gun owning Democrats giving speeches.
The mandate was the economy and war, not guns. Besides, Mitt's record on gun control was more to your liking and well known.

He was murdered by a person with a gun. How do you know the gun was legally obtained or possessed?

While gun rights groups do have grass roots support, gun control groups don't seem to. The Brady Campaign and VPC are dependent on one foundation that funds them. Bloomburg is using his own billions for ad buys and propaganda. I thought we, as Democrats and independents that lean Democratic, were supposed to be against out of state big money as a principle.

[otohara]

72. He Wasn't They Type to Go Find An Illegal Gun

he was a mild mannered 60+ struggling upper middle class guy who was feeling sorry for himself.
If he was going to shoot himself - why would he obtain a gun illegally when it's so fucking easy to get one?

Real dead children = propaganda
Real dead teachers = propaganda
30,000 deaths = propaganda

See propaganda to me is watching the NRA produced "The Secret War on Guns" - it's no longer running, I saved it on my DVR to remind myself how they pretty much called for revolution and the end our our President, one way or another. They want people like me dead, you know "liberals"

I'd rather see billionaires spend their money trying to save lives, vs just using up the earths resources. That's just me,
I care more about people vs guns or money.

[gejohnston]

74. if he had a felony conviction

or a restraining order against him, possessing one would be illegal for him. What would be legal for me would be illegal for him, if that is the case. You knew him better than I do.

the outdated number of 30K are mostly suicides.

See propaganda to me is watching the NRA produced "The Secret War on Guns" - it's no longer running, I saved it on my DVR to remind myself how they pretty much called for revolution and the end our our President, one way or another. They want people like me dead, you know "liberals"

that is also propaganda. All advertising is propaganda.

prop·a·gan·da
/ˌpräpəˈgandə/
Noun
Information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
The dissemination of such information as a political strategy.

I'd rather see billionaires spend their money trying to save lives, vs just using up the earths resources. That's just me, I care more about people vs guns or money.

his money does that too. I care about democracy and individual rights. I also care about people who use a gun to save themselves from violence as I do those who are murdered. I care about curbing all suicides and murders regardless of means because someone murdered with an ice pick or kills them-self with a rope is just as tragic. That is why I find the "gun death" meme intellectually bankrupt at best.

[Callisto32]

6. Wouldn't want to lose that sweet sweet thef*AHEM* TAX revenue.

It's a prohibitionist thing.

The anti-Cannabis folks do the same crap.

"Well, you can't have it....but if you do we want our cut, damnit!"

[Dr_Scholl]

15. What chance does this have?

Because if it passes, it's gonna bite Colorado Dems in the ass HARD in the next election.

[rdharma]

16. Good point, Dr_Scholl.......

I wouldn't doubt if the MagPul folks didn't push this thing to get a "panic magazine buying thing" going!

[Puha Ekapi]

17. I seriously doubt

MagPul would push legislation that would have a detrimental effect on their long term business for a very short-term gain, especially since sales are already brisk.

[rdharma]

18. We'll see......

I was half joking when I said that. But I don't I think this legislation is going to be passed in CO. And this "scare" will only have a beneficial effect on MagPul's short and long term business.

I think the high-capacity magazine issue is a horse that has long ago bolted from the barn. There are already gazillions of them out there.

I would rather see the politicians concentrating on real and effective legislation,....... like universal background screening checks and some form of licensing for ALL firearms purchases.

[JimDandy]

115. All 4 bills passed through the house.

On to the Senate and Gov! All branches are Dem this session. Coloradans are sick of the shootings (Columbine, Aurora) and even the gun nuts in my family are for the background check and the $10 fee for the check.

We aren't backing down. Now we need Congress and Obama to do the same.

[rdharma]

116. I watched the live internet feed.

Man! Is that Brian DelGrosso ever an obnoxious ass hat!

I like that J.T. Salazar. A sharp and witty guy!

[JimDandy]

118. Would like to have caught the live feeds.

John Salazar was NRA approved and is the big bro of Ken Salazar, the Sec of the Interior who recently resigned after the illegal sale of 1770 BLM horses for slaughter to Tom Davis, a former ranch hand of Ken's. What did J.T. Salazar have to say for or against any of the gun control bills? He's no longer a rep so perhaps NRA money doesn't mean so much to him anymore.

[rdharma]

119. My screwup........

I meant Joseph A. Salazar.

I don't know if he's related to Ken or John.

He zinged these repugs for making up all these BS scenarios against background checks.

Some female Rep. (Forget her name) wanted to know how she would would get a background check on the parts of a gun her Uncle was assembling if he died and left them to her. Just BS.

Someone put the link for the debates up here on DU.

And, yes, Ken Salazar was rather disappointing as Interior Secretary.

[JimDandy]

124. No prob...

Going to go find that link to see if it was recorded. Thanks.

[Clames]

26. They are already a million behind on back orders.

The gun-control nuts have already done enough in that respect.

[rdharma]

30. It's so easy......

.....to send a bunch of ignorant paranoid "bubbas" into a gun hoarding panic!

Nobody is going to take their guns!

[Clames]

31. Well you have to forgive them, they get whipped up when the "grabbers" get the vapors...

...from scary things that are black and plastic and let their ignorance and paranoia get the best of them. Poor things aren't the brightest though they mean well...

[rdharma]

33. Nah, no vapors....... just calling for reasonable restrictions.

And the "bubbas" start stocking up like crazy! Hmmmm. Did I say CRAZY?!!!

[gejohnston]

34. you realize of course that today's "reasonable"

will be tomorrow's "lack of" or a "gaping loophole that needs to be filled". How many times have you heard that "guns are unregulated"?

I have no problem with regulation, I do have a problem with moving definitions of reasonalbe and other glittering generalities.

[rdharma]

36. "gaping loophole that needs to be filled".

What "gaping loophole" do you anticipate? Or are you just throwing out a straw man argument?

[gejohnston]

37. who knows, but one will come up

I guarantee Ed Shultz's Fudd guns will become "sniper rifles" and "tube magazine loophole"

[rdharma]

38. Fudd guns will become "sniper rifles" and "tube magazine loophole"

I doubt that!

[gejohnston]

39. scoped bolt actions already are

just not recently. The .50 BMG rifles were sporting rifles before militaries adopted them.

[rdharma]

41. The .50 BMG rifles were sporting rifles before militaries adopted them.

And where has that definition been changed?

[gejohnston]

42. vpc propaganda

[rdharma]

43. Called 'em a bad name?

[Clames]

46. They don't have much else they can do.

Rank technical ignorance coupled being full of shit doesn't leave VPC with many options...

[rdharma]

47. I'm not sure what VPC said....

In fact I didn't know who VPC was until I googled it.

So..... what did they say that was wrong about .50 BMG rifles?

[Clames]

51. Keep Googling. You obviously haven't done enough here.

VPC's now defunct .50 Caliber Terror website was loaded with false information. Alas, we now just have to settle for Josh Sugarman's ravings about these "military bred weapons" (actually civilian bred) and that they are easier to buy than handguns (which is bullshit since they both require the same background check and I don't see too many $6,000 - $10,000+ handguns period). Maybe you would believe they fire heat-seeking bullets?

[rdharma]

88. Maybe you would believe they fire heat-seeking bullets?

No, I wouldn't believe the "heat seeking" bullet thing.

In fact, I can guarantee I know more about firearms than any of the NRA trolls here.

And since I didn't even know who VPC was .......... what makes you think I would espouse their opinion on anything?

[Clames]

45. I think jet planes leave smaller trails...

...than what I've seen left by those who think they are "reasonable". Downright

[rdharma]

48. So....... what reasonable measures are they advocating......

........that you think so downright crazy?

[Clames]

53. That's just it, they aren't reasonable...

...AWB's, magazine restrictions, ammo purchase limits.....nothing but

[rdharma]

67. What? They're not coming to confiscate your guns?

"But, but, but Wayne LaPierre said they were comin' to git mah guns!" ...........

BTW - What bill has been proposed to limit ammo purchases? Or is that just another one of the paranoid gun nutter rumors?

[gejohnston]

69. That's MO

and maybe MN

[rdharma]

70. "MO or maybe MN".......When you get the facts straight........

......... please get back to us. Provide bill number please.

[sarisataka]

75. Technically they are not coming to get the guns

Owners are expected to deliver them:

Legislation backed by several St. Louis area lawmakers would require gun owners to surrender or destroy their assault weapons within 90 days of the measure's passage. The proposed ban would include semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines and semi-automatic pistols with the capacity to shoot more than ten rounds of ammunition before reloading.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/state-and-regional/missouri/mo-democrats-propose-assault-weapon-ban/article_a1e7ef85-ae97-57b0-bb85-a1b2bed51f80.html

H.F. No. 241 which despite claims to the contrary does apply to pistols as well as rifles, mandates owners turn in the guns for destruction... https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0241.0.html&session=ls88

[rdharma]

76. Political grandstanding......

..... by a couple of clowns.

re: the MO clowns...... "In a chamber controlled by a two-thirds Republican majority, the legislation is unlikely to advance or even get a hearing."

And MN HB 241 ....... more grandstanding clowns.... with proposed legislation that won't even make it through the Public Safety Finance and Policy Committee.

If you read the bill, that would classify a semi-auto .22 rifle with a tubular magazine as an "assault weapon".

[gejohnston]

77. the downside being

they are getting a lot of ink, meaning the would not only wreck any regulation changes that we would both deem reasonalbe, and if they have a D after their name, they will become nationally known outside of the gun blogs during mid terms.

[rdharma]

79. "if they have a D after their name, they will become nationally known"

The "Ds" don't have a monopoly on this grandstanding crap. I seem to recall that some "Rs" were proposing bills that would exempt their state from any further Federal firearms laws. That sure is gonna fly!

[gejohnston]

80. you missed the point

grandstanding Rs causing a backlash against Rs isn't a bad thing. Grand standing Ds causing a backlash against Ds would be.

[rdharma]

83. actually the point is........

.......that it's sad that these pandering politicos are able to exploit their low information bases by employing this tactic.

[gejohnston]

86. that too.

[sarisataka]

78. These present two problems

First- it puts lie to the statement "No one is trying to take your guns". It's not just some people on DU talking, these are elected reps submitting legislation

Second- come midterms, which so many think is no big deal, I will bet $$$ that there will be nra backed ads to remind people of this grandstanding, but they will spin it to be a serious confiscation effort; the nra will also take full credit for stopping the bills...

[rdharma]

81. I stand partially corrected

I should have said, "No one is SERIOUSLY trying to take your guns". These grandstanding clowns are playing to their bases hoping their constituency is stupid enough to believe they are seriously pushing legislation.

..."but they (the NRA) will spin it to be a serious confiscation effort; the nra will also take full credit for stopping the bills"...

Sure they will! That's why I find these grandstanding clowns so disgusting. It'll make them popular in their pro-gun control districts .... while hurting the efforts for REAL gun safety legislation.

[sarisataka]

85. we are in agreement

[Straw Man]

82. Ammo purchases.

BTW - What bill has been proposed to limit ammo purchases? Or is that just another one of the paranoid gun nutter rumors?

Are we talking only about Colorado here? I ask because the new SAFE Act in NY requires a background check for every ammo purchase. Given the additional hoop-jumping requirement, most ammo buyers would want to consolidate purchases so as not to have to hang around Gander Mountain for forty-five minutes each time they want a box of shotgun shells, but the law also requires vendors to report "large purchases" to the State Police. The amount that constitutes a "large purchase" has yet to be specified.

It's not a rumor; it's our new reality. Am I paranoid?

[rdharma]

84. "Am I paranoid?"

Yes, you are a little.

The key words were "limit ammo purchases". So what if they report large purchases to the State Police? It's still not against the law to make large ammunition purchases.

[Straw Man]

90. So ...

So what if they report large purchases to the State Police? It's still not against the law to make large ammunition purchases.

... what is the purpose of the report?

[rdharma]

94. "... what is the purpose of the report?"

I would imagine they might use it to check if there are any current wants or warrants on the purchaser.

If there were none, ............ then end of story.

You don't have any outstanding wants or warrants out on you.......... Do you, Straw Man?

[Straw Man]

100. Umm...

"... what is the purpose of the report?"

I would imagine they might use it to check if there are any current wants or warrants on the purchaser.

They just did a background check. Remember? That told them that I have no wants or warrants. If I had failed that, there would have been no purchase. But if my purchase exceeds some unpublished magic number of rounds, it still gets reported. Again I ask: Why?

No, I'm clean. Clean enough that the State of New York has deigned to give me a handgun permit. Why should I begrudge the NY State Police their desire to know about my ammo-buying habits, right? Nothing to hide, nothing to fear. Privacy is overrated and the police are our friends. Always.

[rdharma]

101. "They just did a background check. Remember? "

"That told them that I have no wants or warrants."

No. That tells them that you had no wants or warrants at the time your background check was conducted. WHat if that was conducted several years ago?

The keyword is "CURRENT".

[Straw Man]

104. Are you paying attention?

"They just did a background check. Remember?"

"That told them that I have no wants or warrants."

No. That tells them that you had no wants or warrants at the time your background check was conducted. WHat if that was conducted several years ago?

The keyword is "CURRENT".

The law says they do a background check for every ammo purchase. So when they're reporting my "large ammo purchase," the background check is approximately 30 seconds old.

Please try to keep up.

[rdharma]

111. Try to keep up.......

"The law says they do a background check for every ammo purchase. So when they're reporting my "large ammo purchase," the background check is approximately 30 seconds old."

I guess you don't know how to read laws, eh? That's OK. I can and I'll "'splain" it to you.

No wants and warrant check is conducted during an ammunition purchase. Here's the pertinent section of bill:

Section 50 of the bill enhances control over sales of ammunition by
adding a new Penal Law 400.03 requiring.......

(2) that prior to a sale of ammunition, a seller must run the buyer
through a State-created review of disqualifiers to ensure that the
buyer is not prohibited by law from possessing ammunition

So basically they hand you a sheet that asks questions similar to the Form 4473. You then check and sign the sheet and the ammo dealer looks at it to see if you've checked any disqualifiers. The ammo dealer records the transaction info electronically and maintains those records.

Now....... have you caught up with me?

[Straw Man]

112. 'Splaining.

Last edited Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:21 AM - Edit history (1)

I guess you don't know how to read laws, eh? That's OK. I can and I'll "'splain" it to you.

No wants and warrant check is conducted during an ammunition purchase.

Umm... wrong.

So basically they hand you a sheet that asks questions similar to the Form 4473. You then check and sign the sheet and the ammo dealer looks at it to see if you've checked any disqualifiers. The ammo dealer records the transaction info electronically and maintains those records.

Not quite. You missed this part:

a) before the completion of the transfer, the licensee or seller
contacts the statewide license and record database and provides the
database with information sufficient to identify such dealer or seller,
transferee based on information on the transferee's identification
document as defined in paragraph (c) of this subdivision, as well as the
amount, calibre, manufacturer's name and serial number, if any, of such
ammunition;
(b) the system provides the licensee or seller with a unique
identification number; and
(c) the transferor has verified the identity of the transferee by
examining a valid state identification document of the transferee issued
by the department of motor vehicles or if the transferee is not a
resident of the state of New York, a valid identification document
issued by the transferee's state or country of residence containing a
photograph of the transferee.
4. If the database determines that the purchaser of ammunition is
eligible to possess ammunition pursuant to state and federal laws, the
system shall:
(a) assign a unique identification number to the transfer; and
(b) provide the licensee or seller with the number.
5. If the statewide license and record database notifies the licensee
or seller that the information available to the database does not
demonstrate that the receipt of ammunition by such other person would
violate 18 U.S.C. 922(g) or state law, and the licensee transfers
ammunition to such other person, the licensee shall indicate to the
database that such transaction has been completed at which point a
record of such transaction shall be created which shall be accessible by
the division of state police and maintained for no longer than one year
from point of purchase, which shall not be incorporated into the
database established pursuant to section 400.02 of this article or the
registry established pursuant to subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00
of this article.

--http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article400.htm#p400.03

They're going to do more than "record the data electronically." They're going to run it against the database. Apparently the state database will have to access the NICS system, since the sale is contingent on the buyer not being prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), which is the Federal law identifying "prohibited persons."

When an FFL initiates a NICS background check, a name and descriptive information search is conducted for matching records in three national databases. These databases are the National Crime Information Center (NCIC), which contains information on wanted persons and protection orders; the Interstate Identification Index (III), which contains criminal history records; and the NICS Index. The NICS Index contains information that may not be available in the NCIC or the III regarding persons predetermined to be prohibited from receiving firearms under federal or state law. A valid match of a NICS Index record to a prospective firearm transferee results in an immediate determination of firearm disqualification.

--http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/nics-overview

These are the disqualifiers for possession of firearms or ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 922(g):

(1) a person convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
(2) a person who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) a person who is an unlawful user of or who is addicted to a controlled substance;
(4) a person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been admitted
to a mental institution;
(5) an alien who is unlawfully in the United States or who has been admitted to the
United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
(6) a person who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable
conditions;
(7) a person who, having been a citizen of the United States, renounces his citizenship;
(8) a person subject to a court order that was issued after a hearing in which the person
participated, which order restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or partner’s child, and which order includes a finding that the person is a credible threat to such partner or partner’s child, or by its terms prohibits the use, attempted use or threatened use of such force against such partner or partner’s child;
(9) a person who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

Did you think buyers were just going to sign a form and walk away? "Lie and buy" went out the window in 1994.

Are you with me so far?

[Clames]

91. That is the key word. Unfortunately you lack the understanding to put it in full context.

To put it simply, laws that would require reporting of arbitrarily defined "large" ammunition purchases and those that ban online sales have the net effect of limiting how much ammo one may buy. Considering many of the proposed laws would require such reporting when buying a single brick of .22lr ammo (about 500 rds). You might be under the impression that laws cost little or nothing to enforce and setting up a data base to collect such information is similarly cheap. Wouldn't be the first time you've been wrong here too. So since the costs of such legislation would be tacked onto the cost of ammo the obvious side-effect is less ammo purchased (your grade school economics class would have helped figure out this one).

[rdharma]

102. your grade school economics class ........

"Considering many of the proposed laws would require such reporting when buying a single brick of .22lr ammo (about 500 rds)."

Oh? Which proposed laws are those? Name 'em! Does the NY law consider a single brick of ammo a "large" ammo purchase?

Please! Do tell!

[Clames]

106. Look it up yourself.

You did at least learn that much? No? Oh well...

[Straw Man]

109. Large purchases.

Oh? Which proposed laws are those? Name 'em! Does the NY law consider a single brick of ammo a "large" ammo purchase?

The New York law does not specify what constitutes a "large" purchase, only that such purchases will be reported. Keep 'em guessing. It's what we call "open government."

[rdharma]

110. "The NY law does not not specify what constitutes a "large" purchase"

Clames just told me that many of the proposed laws would require such reporting when buying a single brick of .22lr ammo (about 500 rds). Maybe he can tell us if the NY law considers a brick of .22LR a "large" purchase under the NY law.

[Straw Man]

113. The law doesn't mention a threshold.

The Governor's website says this:

To track high-volume ammunition purchasers, the legislation will make New York the first state in the nation to track ammo purchases in real time. All dealers in ammunition must be registered with the State Police, and each sale will require both a state background check and transmission of a record of the sale to State Police, so as to enable alerts of high volume purchases.

--http://www.governor.ny.gov/press/01152013-outline-of-nys-groundbreaking-gun-legislation

What triggers an "alert" and who initiates it are unclear. I suppose it's up to the State Police to determine. If anything, this law will encourage "high volume purchases" because of the red tape each individual purchase will entail.

[rdharma]

114. this law will encourage "high volume purchases" because of the red tape

There are also going to be a lot of people learning how to reload their own ammunition. Unless there are restrictions on components.

And there will be tons of "straw dealing" going on.

OK..... I agree with you. This is REALLY a stupid law!

It won't go into effect until 15 Jan 2014. Expect extreme panic buying of ammo before then.

So you were right....... it really is time to scream and run in circles!

[rdharma]

73. jet plane trails...

Maybe what you were seeing was those "CIA chem trails" Alex Jones is always talking about!

[Clames]

87. Nope...

...it called a contrail which is short for condensation trail which obviously caused by water vapor exhausted as a combustion by-product of a jet engine. You can educate yourself more at this link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail


Good luck!

[rdharma]

89. "it called a contrail"

No shit, Sherlock!

[Clames]

92. Failing to keep up Watson?

Such a difficult subject for you...

[rdharma]

96. Such a difficult subject for you.....

And you would be wrong...... once again!

[Clames]

97. Your band called...

...they want you back...

[rdharma]

99. Why are you surfing "boy band sites", Clames?

Hmmmmmmmm?!!!!!!

[Clames]

103. I just put your name into Google.

Can't help what results turn up kiddo....

[rdharma]

105. "name into Google"

I don't think you know my name, Clames.

SO..... the question remains....... why are you googling pics of boy bands, eh?

[Clames]

107. Your imaginings.

Pathetic...

[rdharma]

108. Pathetic

It's no me who is searching for boy band pics, my friend!

[Clames]

117. No me.

Apparently spelling was another difficult subject for you after Pre-K....

[jimmy the one]

19. GOOD RIDDANCE to magpul firearms inc

Anyone who votes in favor of this bill votes to drive over 600 jobs out of CO {colorado}.

Oooo scared now, 600 gunnut jobs, as if that's gonna cripple colorado or something?
Good riddance, good riddance to magpul, if it transpires.
A loss of 600 employees engaged in manufacturing mechanisms which can enhance the killing capabilities of high velocity fragible bullets, is NO REAL LOSS. It's actually an asset, a boon, a GOOD THING. For colorado.

colorado: Total Employment2005 2,335,510 .. 2,421,240
http://www.coworkforce.com/lmi/oeo/coempoutsum05070414.pdf

Colorado’s employment is forecast to reach nearly 2.8 million by 2014, an increase of 31 percent between 2004 and 2014.
Within the goods-producing division, most new jobs will come in construction. Over the next
decade, it is expected that the industry will expand to 227,000 by the year 2014 – a 50% increase from the 2004 employment levels. Only the professional and business services industry is forecast to advance by a greater relative amount through 2014. Construction should also grow rapidly over the short-term. Within construction, specialty trade contractors is the second fastest growing industry, with 11,330 new jobs by 2007. Opportunities are also expected to be plentiful within the heavy and civil engineering subsector

So a 'loss' of 600 magpul magazine makers will leave 99.976% of colorados jobs unaffected. How will colorado ever survive? What is magpul anyway, magazine production unlimited? Good riddance to magpul. Go to alaska & make mags, have a nice days, or better yet go to columbia, there's a big market for you guys down there, lotsa money you love you creeps.

As far as the suggestion that dems cowtow to 2ndA concerns or else they'll get trounced in 2014, DREAM ON gunnuts, just like they did in 2012 eh? Its' time you all, did some concessions to the guncontrol crowd, who are as much law abiding, even moreso imo, as gun owners. You all, are just trying to foment agitation & worry amongst dems here who sit on the fence on guns & guncontrol, for what point I dunno, to elect a rightwing gunnut instead of a democrat? a dick cheney? You're that far immersed in your armed fantasies? to actually turn your 2ndAmendment mythology & gross exaggerations into reality?

Whether (Co bill) it passes or not, it's indication that guncontrol efforts haven't been forgotten due the manipulations of the nra, gun lobby, & rw supreme court. Colorado joins several other states introducing guncontrol efforts on the state level, some already passed.

[hack89]

21. You missed the point of the OP

we have gun controllers saying that high capacity mags are too dangerous for Colorado while saying that it is perfectly fine for high capacity mags can be made in Colorado for sale in other states.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. Good point, but two-facedness is common amongst that lot.

Blatant hypocrisy doesn't trouble the Prohibitionists a bit- vide Sylvester Stallone's and Dianne Feinstein's
concealed pistol permits...

[SayWut]

25. Also gotta love some of the AWB's and mag bans enacted and being proposed at the state level.

The ones that are calling for no grandfathering of 10+ round magazines, and/or large capacity rifles, are saying that the prohibited items must be surrendered to law enforcement, or removed from the state; IOW transferred to another state where they are legal to posses.

Doing so doesn't solve any problem, or eliminate the "danger" posed; it simply places the problem elsewhere (assuming one believes hi-capacity magazines, or semi-automatic firearms are even a threat or danger to begin with).

The hypocrisy lies in the fact that the states legislating this solution, are the same states that routinely assign blame to states with "lax" gun control laws, for their gun related crime problems.
Quelle Surprise!!!

[jimmy the one]

27. more on magpul

hack: You missed the point of the OP.. we have gun controllers saying that high capacity mags are too dangerous for Colorado while saying that it is perfectly fine for high capacity mags can be made in Colorado for sale in other states.

No I didn't miss that point - there were a few other points as well. But since you bring it up & focus on it, the colorado lawmaker said this: “There is no restriction on manufacturing high-capacity magazines or anything else in Colorado.”
-- Magpul evidently makes mags & accessories for military, & perhaps law; .. since only about the most far right civilian gunnut would want a 30 rd mag for his ar15, I dunno if magpuls sales are affected much by civilian sales, or that they get many orders for 30rd mags for states (I could be wrong of course, & even if limited, good riddance).

Here's magpuls bio from wiki, dunno if it's indicative of overall sales or what. Which year you think magpul had it's highest civvy sales?:
-- 1999: Fitzpatrick develops the original Magpul 5.56..
2000: The Magpul 7.62 and Magpul 9mm are introduced.
2001: First Magpul patent, U.S. Patent 6,212,815, is awarded.
2002: First official military order (100 M93 stocks for the USMC.)
2003: Magpul moves out of Fitzpatrick's home to official offices. First employee, (now Chief operating officer) is hired.
2004: The Magpul Ranger Plate, Self Leveling Follower, and MIAD (MIssion ADaptable Grip) are introduced.
2005: Additional magazine accessories are introduced, as well as the company's second stock; the PRS.
2006: Magpul receives its first official NATO Stock Number, and their products are featured in the movie Mission Impossible3 - {terrible terrible movie, just awful}
2007: The PMAG 30 (a synthetic magazine for the AR-15/M16 platform), UBR stock, Masada Combat Rifle..
2008: (Magpul Original Equipmt) line,MagpulPDR,FSG9,Magpul Massoud introduced. MagpulDynamics formed.
2009: The EMAG, designed to fit other STANAG 4179-compliant weapons such as HK416 and SA80 aside from just the AR-15/M16,introduced.. several other products..
2010: Magpul wins a bid with the UK Ministry of Defence for 1,000,000 EMAGs to be delivered over a four-year period.
2011: The MBUS2 introduced, also featured in promos for the game Battlefield3. First 100,000 EMAGs of the UK MOD contract are delivered to troops in Afghanistan.
2012: PMAG30 Gen3 released as a synthetic mag compatible all STANAG4179-type rifles, from AR-15 rifes to weapons that previously would need EMAGs.

Holy maggeral, seems magpul was involved in one of them violent battlefield video games wayno was talkin' about. Main production I see is foreign mil sales for UK.

Magpul Industries takes its name from its first product, an accessory for US and NATO armed forces STANAG magazines that aided users in pulling the magazine out of its pouch, hence "Magpul". Magpul primarily designs, manufactures, and distributes accessories for the AR-15 and M16 rifles, and it has also expanded into the area of complete firearms design.

of interest, seems clean:.. in development, the Magpul Massoud is confirmed as a 7.62mm cal semi-auto rifle.. A prototype has been test fired.. The name was chosen in honor of Ahmad Shah Massoud, the famous resistance leader of the Afghani Northern Alliance who was killed two days prior to the 9/11 attacks
.. Northern Alliance fought a defensive war against the Taliban govt. They received support from Iran, Russia, India, Tajikistan and others, while the Taliban were backed by al-Qaeda and Pakistan Armed Forces.. After the US-led invasion and establishement of the Karzai administration in late 2001, the Northern Alliance broke apart and different political parties were formed.

friendly_iconoclast to hack: Good point, but two-facedness is common amongst that lot. Blatant hypocrisy doesn't trouble the Prohibitionists a bit-

Posting as 'friendly sycophant' today?

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. And *still* you missed a salient point: Military issue magazines don't have serial numbers

Don't believe me? Go to a gun store or gun show and look at used magazines- they'll have the manufacturers name,
a model number and maybe a lot number- but no serial number.

Magpul will just pack up, move and resume the manufacture of magazines sans serial #'s somewhere else- but you and
the Coloradoan culture warriors will still claim to have 'taken a stand against gun violence', or some similar nonsense...

[rdharma]

44. Magpul won't be required to have serial #s

It's a done deal!

[Callisto32]

22. U mad bro?

Cuz u sound mad.

[ileus]

20. I sure hope windowed pmags show up again at 17 bucks each...

I never really thought much about it until I got caught with only one in my inventory. I keep it in my AR at night for my SD long gun home safety solution.

[littlewolf]

23. hahahahaha it would be nice ... however I would not hold my breath. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

28. The law, if passed, will force Magpul to move.

Magazine buyers will be turned off by mags that have serial numbers and dates stamped on them. It will cut into Magpul's sales, thereby prompting them to move to a friendlier state. Gov. Perry (Texas) has probably already mailed them an invitation.

[rdharma]

35. Magazine buyers will be turned off by mags that have serial numbers

That serial number stamp requirement was removed from the bill by an amendment.

[rdharma]

32. CO HB1224 just passed.

We'll see what happens next. Will MagPul (Alfred Industries) move out of the state?

CO HB1229 (universal background check) is probably also going to be passed.

[GreenStormCloud]

40. Probably won't move.

If the serial number requirement & date stamp were removed from the bill, then moving would be an unnecessary expense that would lower their profits.

[Clames]

49. Passed a voice vote in the House you mean.

Might want to brush up on Colorado procedures when you have some time.

[rdharma]

50. Democrats control the House 37-28

Want to make a bet where this is going?

[Clames]

52. Not all of the Democrats are voting for it.

Some are smart enough to know bullshit when they see it...

[SayWut]

93. "Want to make a bet where this is going?"

Yep, to the SCOTUS.

It may or may not be the People .vs CO.
It could be NJ, NY, CA, MA, etc; anywhere where clearly over the top, unconstitutional gun control legislation is being proposed or enacted.

Mag bans, semi-auto bans, background checks are just the tip of the iceberg.
Insurance requirements, excessive taxes, licensing and registration, ammunition "stockpiling" limits, relinquish ownership of currently owned items or face the penalty of law, etc.
It's all part of the same agenda.

[rdharma]

95. 'It's all part of the same agenda."

Is that a quote from Jimmy Lee Dykes?

Let me know when this goes to the SCOTUS so I can publicly apologize.

[shedevil69taz]

98. Isn't Jack Daniels made in a dry county?

This should surprise no one.

[JamesSchacht]

120. 1770 have been killed by gun violence since massacre in Newtown

Today, the number of Americans killed by gun violence totals over 1770 people since the massacre in Newtown, Connecticut.
-- Tom Keller, Tuesday, February 12, 2013.

[JamesSchacht]

121. Gun violence and race

• American schools are more segregated by race and class today than they were on the day Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.
• While white neighborhoods are becoming slightly more diverse, African-Americans and Latinos remain concentrated in highly segregated neighborhoods devoid of white people.
• The United States accounts for 5 percent of the global population, but 25 percent of the world's prisoners. More than 60 percent of America's 2.4 million inmates are people of color.
• Just before the 2012 election, white unemployment stood at roughly 6.8 percent, while the black rate was 13.4 percent and the Hispanic rate was 9.2 percent.
• Wealth gaps between whites and blacks and whites and Hispanics reached record levels during Obama's first term.
• In late 2012, black and Hispanic men were dropping out of the workforce at a faster rate than their female counterparts as men's participation in the work force fell to its lowest rate on record.


-- Michael P. Jeffries, “Obama's Chicago Speech Can't Address Gun Violence Unless It Takes on Race,” The Atlantic, February 15, 2013, http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/02/obamas-chicago-speech-cant-address-gun-violence-unless-it-takes-on-race/273200/.

[JamesSchacht]

123. 1,260,703 Americans died by firearms since 1968

And I just -- just on a personal note, on April 9, 1968, I was in Ebenezer Baptist Church when Martin Luther King's funeral -- a remarkable event. And two months later, I was working in California in Robert Kennedy's campaign when he was shot.

Martin Luther King was 39. Robert Kennedy was 42. That's -- 42 years after their being shot, 1,260,703 Americans died in firearms -- by firearms. In the total history of the United States in every war, in the Revolutionary, all the world's wars, 659,000 Americans have died in combat, twice as many in one-fifth the time.

And I think the president has the capacity and the standing at this point to make that case that we -- that this is not American exceptionalism, when we have five times -- four times as many people killed in this country as in the next 21 richest countries in the world in one year.

-- Mark Shields, PBS NewsHour, NewsHour.PBS.org, January 18, 2013, http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june13/shieldsbrooks_01-18.html.