Pastor's daughter, 20, accidently shot in head at St. Pete church

[jpak]

http://www.baynews9.com/article/news/2012/february/381645/Woman-20-accidently-shot-in-head-at-St-Pete-church?cid=rss&cmpid=facebook

An accidental shooting at a church in unincorporated St. Petersburg left a woman critically injured Sunday afternoon.

<snip>

The pastor’s daughter, 20-year-old Hannah Kelley, was shot in the head and transported to Bayfront Medical Center by ambulance.

<snip>

Following the church service, several members of the congregation were gathered in the church's rec room.

According to detectives, 20-year-old Dustin Bueller approached 48-year-old Moises Zambrana and said that he would soon be turning 21 and was interested in purchasing a gun for himself.

<more>

God, Guts and Guns

yup

[atreides1]

1. How stupid

Took out the magazine but didn't check to make sure there wasn't one in the chamber?

And, why the fuck was he in a closet in the first place?

This is the kind of asshat that makes things difficult for responsible gun owners!

[pnwmom]

3. He was too busy explaining the "safety" features to check the chamber.

[flamin lib]

4. He had a cc permit. Must be responsible or so I hear. nt

[rl6214]

69. Responsible does not mean infallible

[Callisto32]

114. BLAH BLAH BLAH

Samples of one, et cetera....

[kestrel91316]

2. I am SO glad folks have the right to carry guns in church.

Everyone is SO much safer.

A little collateral damage is a small price to pay for the ability to weenie-wag in public.

[friendly_iconoclast]

6. And not one single word of sympathy for the victim from you in all of that.

For some people it would seem it's more about hating guns (and getting to use warmed-over Freudian imagery) than concern about others.

Let me just say (because you certainly didn't) that I hope Ms. Kelley makes a full recovery, and Zambrana gets an entire law library thrown at him.

[Frustratedlady]

7. Well said.

I'm not for guns, but I think we all are too quick to jump on issues and forget people. I hope she recovers and the church comes to its senses and no longer allows guns in church.

[DrDan]

74. just too bad gunners don't consider other "people" in their insatiable need for their guns

[Callisto32]

115. I'd LOVE for you to explain those quotes around "people"

in a way that isn't abusive to fellow members of DU...

[DrDan]

120. be glad to - the post I responded to used that word - so I put it in quotes

that's all - nothing more intended

[Callisto32]

121. Awesome.

I was hoping.

Sorry if that post came off badly, I really was hoping for an innocent explanation, and I sometimes lose context in the thread trees.

[Starboard Tack]

11. Apart from your heartfelt sympathy for the victim, you're OK with guns in church?

Why would Zambrana be prosecuted? No charges were filed. Hey, he's a CC holder and was conducting a lesson on gun safety with two boys in a closet. Hmm! I guess that's how they roll in Fla these days.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. I would say...

...the churches that I have been to are about the calmest places around, most often, rather joyful. I wouldn't think being joyful inspire anyone to want to shoot anyone. On the other hand if your church isn't joyful, it may be time to consider a change. Why would carrying in church especially be a problem?

[Starboard Tack]

20. "Why would carrying in church especially be a problem?"

Hmm! Lemme think? Oh, yeah, maybe getting shot in the head by some loony who's showing off his gun to a couple of boys in a closet. Very calm place. Glad I don't carry a gun or go to church.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

36. You're not hearing me.

What makes church special? Why is reasonable to carry in the bank or the grocery store but not church?

[Starboard Tack]

40. I don't think it is reasonable to carry in any of those places.

In fact, I think it is downright dumb to routinely carry anywhere. Carrying a gun around in the hope that it is somehow going to protect you from harm is ridiculous. Carrying one to church brings it into the realm of the absurd (pun intended), where believers should have no fear, because they are in the house of the Lord. Churches are supposed to be sanctuaries, places of non-violence. Any church that condones such behavior is engaging in self-mockery.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

45. First...

...the answer to my question is "nothing". If there isn't a compelling reason or substantial difference with regard to a firearm between church and the grocery store then there is not a reason to prohibit carrying in church.

I do respect your position that you are against folks carrying in public.

Next, saying that "Churches are supposed to be sanctuaries, places of non-violence." would be a fine argument against carrying in church, but only if churches were actually places of non-violence (i.e. - there were no instances of violence at any churches.) I further have no problem if the faith involved is committed to pacifism.

A question: "Any church that condones such behavior is engaging in self-mockery." Are the majority of churches against all forms of violence?

[gejohnston]

48. self mockery since 325

the Christianity of Jesus died in the first or second century. When it became an organized arm of the state, it made a mockery of Jesus. The "prosperity theology", Calvinism, televangelists preaching racism and greed is more of the same.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

60. Are you referring to the Armenians? n/t

[Starboard Tack]

58. "Are the majority of churches against all forms of violence?"

Hopefully they are, at least inside the church itself. I can understand church goers being concerned about violence because of the number of shootings that have already occurred, but the idea of allowing attendees to be randomly armed with concealed weapons seems to be a recipe for disaster. There are churches who take a more reasoned approach, like engaging professionals to protect the congregation against those who may be violent.
https://www.safechurch.com/Resources/sc/EmergencyPreparedness/violence.pdf
http://www.churchsafety.com/topics/emergencies/violence/confrontinggunviolenceatchurch/confrontinggunviolenceatchurch.html

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

59. I'm a bit puzzled.

"There are churches who take a more reasoned approach, like engaging professionals to protect the congregation against those who may be violent."

Does this mean that the church pays people to bring guns into the church?

[Starboard Tack]

65. No, it pays people to keep them out.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

66. re: "No, it pays people to keep them out."

An organization which controls a building or campus hires security to "screen" its members like TSA? Is that the idea?

[Callisto32]

117. How will they do that, if not armed themselves?

[Callisto32]

116. You are showing either an inability, or a failure...

to differentiate between engaging in violent actions and initiating violence against other human beings.

These are distinct categories of action, differentiated primarily based upon mental state.

[Starboard Tack]

128. I am suffering from an inability to understand what you are trying to say.

It may be a failure as I'm only on my second cup of coffee.

[barbtries]

34. what just happened?!

this is why carrying in church would be a problem: someone might get SHOT.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

37. You're not hearing me.

What makes church special? Why is reasonable to carry in the bank or the grocery store but not church?

[barbtries]

79. i believe that it's reasonable to leave the guns locked up

to my mind it is not reasonable to wander everywhere carrying a gun.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

80. I understand. :)

I was just clarifying that there wasn't something particular about church that you had in mind.

Shot is shot and killed is killed. The only place where I don't want to be shot is anywhere on my person.

[barbtries]

81. we understand each other then

thank you.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

82. You're welcome

have a nice day.

[gejohnston]

39. it is less of a gun issue

and a church/state separation issue. Same rules should apply as the corner gas station.

[brewens]

13. Sorry to hear about this, for the girls sake. Many of the gun rights people will

only be concerned that it gives more "ammunition" to the left. I hope they can nail that idiot.

I carry a gun sometimes. When I'm outdoors in places where the wildlife considers me to be food, and in situatons where my sideline business is opperating. Almost no one knows I have a premit or that I'm packing. A kid like that would never get the idea that she should ask me in the first place.

[Angry Dragon]

43. The victim did not ask. It was a 20 year-old boy that asked.

Innocent by-stander

[SteveW]

84. You may be "alerted" for your slang reference to penis. nt

[Straw Man]

94. Has anyone ever told you ...

A little collateral damage is a small price to pay for the ability to weenie-wag in public.

... that you're a class act?

[Straw Man]

95. Never ...

Last edited Tue Feb 14, 2012, 01:29 AM - Edit history (2)

... mind.

[appleannie1]

5. Why would anyone need to carry a loaded gun to church? Oh, I forgot. It is their 'right'.

[WingDinger]

14. Um, Dr Tiller. The church members when the freak wanted to kill all the liberals.

[Hoyt]

18. Unfortunately, members of the "gun culture" don't realize they don't have to carry, even if they

think it is a "right." There are lots of things that are legal, that people shouldn't do.

[Hoyt]

30. Actually the christian right is all about guns -- they love them and are the base of "gun culture."

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. The "gun culture" isn't responsible here, only one Moises Zembrana.

It's hardly the "gun culture's" fault some idiot had an ND, no more so than the "car culture" is responsible for auto crashes.

But if you insist on playing the 'collective guilt' card, fine:

As a member of "Georgia Culture", you are now responsible for Newt Gingrich, Lester Maddox and Walter Williams.

Starboard Tack is now responsible (as a member of the "live-aboard culture&quot for those that illegally flush their bilges at night instead of getting a hazmat
contactor to pump them out.

Sauce for goose, meet gander...

[Hoyt]

46. Like said, gun culture will take no responsibility. Kind of like oil companies.

[gejohnston]

52. I was not even in the same county

unlike BP and Transociean.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

129. Looks Like this Church Gun Owner

.....missed the gun training the gun industry falsely prides themselves on.

[gejohnston]

130. The NRA has the classes

not the industry.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

131. Ok

Thanks for making the point.

Training is ineffective and not comprehensive.

[gejohnston]

132. maybe Florida's training

requirement should be more like Texas? I took Florida's class. Nothing is scarier for a gun toting hick than to be in a room full of surbanites or NY transplants who don't even know how to open the cylinder on a revolver, but want to carry one.

[SteveW]

86. The Democratic portion of the "gun culture" grew by 1/3 over the last 2 years. nt

[Hoyt]

87. Just goes to show you can have a "gun-grabber" as President and still attract Democrats who care

about society more than their guns.

[Simo 1939_1940]

88. Way to miss the point. But what else is new? NT

[Hoyt]

89. And what is the point? First, I like to see a citation. Second, a 33% increase from a low number

to begin with means very little.

[Skwid]

31. Absolutely! Why would ANYONE dare to exercise a constitutional right????

The concept is simply insane.

[Hoyt]

47. Lots of things are a constitutional rght -- yet they are wrong.

[Hoyt]

56. Corporate greed, pollution, walking around with swastika, more.

Yeah, there are some laws against corporate greed and pollution, but they have been quite lax.

[Callisto32]

118. Oy vey.

Why would the .gov (the biggest, most powerful, greediest corporation of all) crack down on corporate greed. You do know that corporations are entities that has no basis in reality, created by the very state you want to control them for the very purpose of protecting people from the liability they should rightly have to deal with, right?

[Skwid]

54. That sounds exactly like what Rick the Santorum or one of his fellow travelers would say.

I'm having a very hard time believing a Democrat would ever utter those words...but I guess the Republicans don't have a monopoly on insanity....

[Hoyt]

57. Give me a break -- if it weren't for racist right wingers, gun laws would be tougher.

[ileus]

9. That's God, Guns, and Guts...no one got shot at my church today.

And there's a shiteload that carry.

[Starboard Tack]

12. That's because the Lord was watching over your church

[Skwid]

21. Could you please get us a list of which churches the Lord watches over? It will save a lot of troub

[Starboard Tack]

24. You'll have to ask someone with better connections then me.

Maybe try the Yellow Pages. Important thing to know is, that if there weren't any shootings, that church must be on the list and stays on the list until there is a shooting.

[Skwid]

25. So any goofball with a gun can subvert the omnipotency of the Lord of the Universe? Okay,

I sure do believe that.

[SteveW]

85. Which one? I prefer Artemis. nt

[Callisto32]

119. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Plus, kind of insulting.

[Starboard Tack]

127. What's insulting about it?

If I believed in an all merciful God, why would I carry a gun into His house? Because I don't really trust that God to protect me, like I don't trust the cops to protect me? What's that called? Insurance or hypocrisy?

[movonne]

15. Just wait....maybe next week or the week after...and

maybe not this church but another one...there are so many unstable people around it will happen...and bars is just asking for trouble...have a few drinks and your right and someone else is wrong and they will shoot them just to prove it...

[Hoyt]

19. And the "gun culture" will chalk it up to illegal carrying or an accident, like that changes things.

[Skwid]

22. I agree that churches are full of unstable people. They believe in imaginary deities.

It's pretty much a Q.E.D. situation. Oh, like you said, they tend to be drunks too. Wow, such a marvelous combination.

[movonne]

26. You kinda hit the nail on the head...

[Skwid]

28. I've always had pretty good aim.

[ellisonz]

98. This poster is no longer with us. n/t

[Clames]

101. Do you really feel posts like these...

...are necessary? I understand your contribution to this group is minimal but you could at least demonstrate a more educated facade if only for yourself.

[ellisonz]

102. Yes. n/t

[Hoyt]

32. Or, as Bill Maher says: "They believe in talking snakes." Is that who we want carrying guns?

[Skwid]

38. The only people I "want" carrying guns are those who aren't felons or crazy and who can pass

a simple course in safety and responsibility. And I don't even actually "want" that, the correct word(s) would be "approve of". Belief in talking snakes isn't necessarily proof of insanity, although it is one symptom, but then so is belief in saviors born of virgins who flew up into the sky without benefit of aircraft.

[Union Scribe]

72. You know, DU has a religion forum

Maybe you could save your asshole comments about religious people for there.

[gejohnston]

100. Bill Maher

can't tell the difference between stories told to make a philosophical/spiritual point from literal from documentries? Or is he claiming Christians and Muslims can't? Or is he such a self rightous ass because he is insecure in his own atheism?
Since when were stand up comedians taken seriously as intellectuals?

[Hoyt]

103. As serious as those who have to strap a gun on to venture outside.

[pipoman]

75. Funny you should mention bars..

today..tonight around 30 people will go to bars and kill an innocent person(s) on their way home..whereas your scenario rarely occurs..at least among legal gun possessors

[Hoyt]

49. Probably because they know what folks are like who tote.

To church. Chit, used to think wearing spurs to church was tacky.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. sad.

[Hoyt]

17. Any word on Hannah Kelley? Another carrier WITH A PERMIT messes up, may cost someone their life.

And, as of yet, they haven't filed any charges -- you kidding me?

The "gun culture's" response will likely be: That is the price society must pay so we can keep a gun or two strapped to our bodies when going to church, the park, a family restaurant, a hospital, etc.

[ileus]

35. So you're saying religious people shouldn't be allowed to own firearms?

Should they be allowed to vote?

[Hoyt]

50. Not just religious people. Although I'm more concerned about carrying.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

76. No news on her condition, but the carrier had MORE than a permit

He apparently had some kind of security license, and he provided security for church events.

So, more than a permit holder, less than a real cop.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-pastor-daughter-shot-head-sunday-services-article-1.1021697

He screwed up, forgot about the round in the chamber, and NEGLECTED to inspect for it. No excuse for that.

[Starboard Tack]

23. Awfully quiet around here today. I wonder why.

Are they all in church? Or at the restaurant or bar? Or strolling in the park? Or at the range, practicing for those places?

[Skwid]

29. More likely in the library, reading the DSM-IV

[slackmaster]

33. Tragic and unnecessary. Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools.

Symbolic Unrec for drive-by current events post.

[HockeyMom]

41. Florida has very lax gun laws

My husband went yesterday to a gun show in Ft. Myers. He waited 40 minutes on line just ot get in. He kept talking about how many WOMEN were on there of all ages. Give it a REST.

He ALWAYS tells me this. He has for 38 years. It goes in one ear and out the other. I could care less about these women (SOUTHERN). Hello? He has a very short memory. WHO was the one who prevented a burglar from getting into the house, 30 years ago in NYC, while YOU were running to the closet to get you gun and load it?

I am 63 years old. I figure I will be dead from NATURAL causes long before I ever need to "defend" myself from a mythical gun toting assalant. Hell, I am OLD. KILL me if want. I will not be a gun toting Grandma. I would rather BE dead.

[gejohnston]

44. are you ticked because

he went?
saw women there?
mentioned that he saw women there?
is he saying "why can't you be more like them?
was he hitting on these southern women?
are there really southern women, or are they NY transplants? Canadians?

[HockeyMom]

62. To answer.

#1. No, because he has stopped asking me to go. I go do my own thing when he goes.
#2. Women are everywhre.
#3. Jealous of other women? He's 63. He can look, but can't do anything. I won't go into that one.
#4. Of course, but after 38 years, he still doesn't know me? He won't change, and neither will I.
#5. See #3.
#6. Mixed bag but probably mostly native Floridians with a bunch of MidWest transplants. NY transplants are on the East Coast. How can a Canadian citizen buy guns in the USA, even in Florida?

I base this on the one time I went and sat in the car in the parking lot and watched the people going inside.

[gejohnston]

70. to answer number six

there are a lot of New Yorkers in Citrus County. Mostly transplants from Long Island. Federal law prohibits non immigrant aliens (tourists and snowbirds) from legally buying guns. That does not stop an occasional Canadian thinking his PAL means anything here. Besides, they can walk around and check it out. I would go check one of theirs out to see the difference.

Did you know that the Villages' 60+ aged people have among the highest STD rates?

[Hoyt]

77. Ah, thanks for some humor in the Gungeon.

[PavePusher]

91. Seriously?

"I base this on the one time I went and sat in the car in the parking lot and watched the people going inside."

?428

[Hoyt]

53. Great post.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

111. Thank You

I applaud you. And it's so true.

[ellisonz]

61. Another tragedy...

...how many more will there be before we start asking serious questions about the gun culture in this country. Church is not appropriate place to show off your gun.

[Simo 1939_1940]

63. Church is the *perfect* place to show off your gun

if a heavily armed mad dog decides he wants to shoot fish in a barrel:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14808321/detail.html

[ellisonz]

64. So you generally go into a small neighboring room to show off your gun? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

83. One would generally not do it in a room full of people.

Having it in your hand is entirely different from having it holstered, even openly. Could be construed as brandishing. Discretion is the better part of valor and all that.


Of course, it would be more discreet if he didn't FIRE THE FUCKING THING AT A WALL. Person handling it broke multiple 'rules' for firearms, and this is the tragic result.

Negligence. I hope they throw the fucking book at him.

Had he at LEAST aimed it at the ground, the failure to ensure the chamber was clear wouldn't have resulted in this tragedy.

[Union Scribe]

73. I agree

Definitely with the last sentence, anyway. Carriers do need to understand they should keep the damn thing in its holster unless it's needed. Most of these 'accidents' happen when that common sense notion is violated.

[Hoyt]

78. Unfortunately, it happens too often to chalk it up as just an "accident." Mistake was toting a gun.

[rl6214]

68. "God, Guts and Guns "

What a great, insightful commentary.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

90. And the Hits Keep on Coming

....good thing we got Jesus telling the NRA we need to protect your right to worship (with) guns.

Seriously when will this madness end......oh nevermind....it was an 'accident' and it's the cost of doing business in the land of 'freedom'. Pass the ammo....I mean the offering.

[PavePusher]

93. Right. Freedom never has any risk associated with it.

We can make all freedom perfectly risk-free, if only we try long enough, hard enough, fast enough and deep enough.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

96. Freedom????

What about the freedom to worship without being killed in a gun accident?

Since when did gun accidents that kill become anything other than killing someone else's freedom???

[Straw Man]

92. Carrying isn't the issue.

Handling is.

This man had no business unholstering his gun in a public place. A carry gun stays in its holster unless it is needed to defend one's life. If he wanted to show it to someone, he should have done it at home or at a range, and, needless to say, he should have cleared it first. You don't show people loaded guns. You just don't.

But of course, when y'all succeed in getting private ownership of firearms outlawed from sea to shining sea, then there will no more tragic accidents. All people will live happily ever after, and we will all get free unicorn rides whenever we want them.

[ellisonz]

97. Umm...

Who here said anything about "getting private ownership of firearms outlawed from sea to shining sea"

[Straw Man]

99. Well ...

... it was the favorite meme of a poster who is no longer with us. Perhaps you moderates should try harder to disassociate yourself from such fanaticism.

Sound familiar?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

105. Maybe

....Just maybe you should disassociate yourself from sarcasm that doesn't further the discussion. As a member of the gun community tell us how you are disassociating yourself from irresponsible or illegal gun owners.

[Straw Man]

106. How about ...

Just maybe you should disassociate yourself from sarcasm that doesn't further the discussion.

No. Any questions?

As a member of the gun community tell us how you are disassociating yourself from irresponsible or illegal gun owners.

See below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=15419

[fightthegoodfightnow]

110. No

No. Got it. Just another sarcastic post you are proud of.

[Straw Man]

113. Sarcasm?

What do you call this?

....good thing we got Jesus telling the NRA we need to protect your right to worship (with) guns.

Seriously when will this madness end......oh nevermind....it was an 'accident' and it's the cost of doing business in the land of 'freedom'. Pass the ammo....I mean the offering.

Hypocrite.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

123. OK

Ok......LOL.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

126. Ok

Ok. Got anything else?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

104. Fact Is...

....you are no more likely to get gun owners to handle their guns the way you want than you are to find your unicorn.

Shouldn't you be more upset about why he didn't properly handle a gun than you seem to be at those who want to do something about it one way or another?

[Straw Man]

107. Fact?

....you are no more likely to get gun owners to handle their guns the way you want than you are to find your unicorn.

I call those factoids: things you make up because you'd like them to be true.

Shouldn't you be more upset about why he didn't properly handle a gun than you seem to be at those who want to do something about it one way or another?

I'm a certified firearms safety instructor and range safety officer. I have already done more about proper gun handling than you will ever do in your lifetime.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

108. "I have already done more about proper gun handling than you will ever do in your lifetime."

Ever just want to ...

Or feel like you're ...

[fightthegoodfightnow]

109. Really?

You know me? Didn't think so.

[Straw Man]

112. Fair enough.

You know me? Didn't think so.

OK -- here's your chance. Tell us what you've done to promote safe gun handling.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

122. No Need To

You and I are not the subject of this board.

[Straw Man]

124. You asked, I answered.

I asked, you dodged.

Why am I not surprised?

[fightthegoodfightnow]

125. You Want to Make....

.....personal. I decline.

I make no comparisons to what you have done to promote gun safety but applaud your efforts.