Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:22 PM
Atypical Liberal (5,412 posts)
The fact of the matter is, there are only TWO THINGS that will prevent shootings like Holmes'.
The fact of the matter is, there are only TWO THINGS that will prevent shootings like Holmes':
Banning firearms, or mandatory psychological evaluations before owning firearms. That's it. You are never going to see either one of these things happen. Nothing else will make a dent in this. You will always have some previously law-abiding person, like Breivik, or Holmes, who with complete legitimacy pre-plans his shooting spree and legally buys all the tools he needs to accomplish it. Shooting sports and self-defense are a huge, huge deal to tens of millions of Americans. Millions more support them even if they don't directly participate. You are never going to have enough crime to justify banning firearms or forcing people who own them to submit to psychological evaluations. It's a simple as that.
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38 replies, 2446 views
| Author | Time | Post | |
| Atypical Liberal | Jul 2012 | OP | |
| jody | Jul 2012 | #1 | |
| Clames | Jul 2012 | #2 | |
| Tuesday Afternoon | Jul 2012 | #15 | |
| Clames | Jul 2012 | #18 | |
| Tuesday Afternoon | Jul 2012 | #19 | |
| Loudly | Jul 2012 | #3 | |
| NewMoonTherian | Jul 2012 | #4 | |
| Loudly | Jul 2012 | #5 | |
| TPaine7 | Jul 2012 | #6 | |
| SkatmanRoth | Jul 2012 | #9 | |
| permatex | Jul 2012 | #13 | |
| DWC | Jul 2012 | #33 | |
| ileus | Jul 2012 | #7 | |
| permatex | Jul 2012 | #8 | |
| ileus | Jul 2012 | #10 | |
| permatex | Jul 2012 | #11 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #16 | |
| gejohnston | Jul 2012 | #17 | |
| alabama_for_obama | Jul 2012 | #30 | |
| gejohnston | Jul 2012 | #31 | |
| Tuesday Afternoon | Jul 2012 | #12 | |
| Fredjust | Jul 2012 | #14 | |
| soccer1 | Jul 2012 | #20 | |
| gejohnston | Jul 2012 | #21 | |
| soccer1 | Jul 2012 | #22 | |
| gejohnston | Jul 2012 | #23 | |
| soccer1 | Jul 2012 | #24 | |
| gejohnston | Jul 2012 | #26 | |
| customerserviceguy | Jul 2012 | #25 | |
| Atypical Liberal | Jul 2012 | #27 | |
| customerserviceguy | Jul 2012 | #36 | |
| rrneck | Jul 2012 | #28 | |
| Speck Tater | Jul 2012 | #29 | |
| Atypical Liberal | Jul 2012 | #32 | |
| Speck Tater | Jul 2012 | #35 | |
| 4th law of robotics | Jul 2012 | #37 | |
| Atypical Liberal | Jul 2012 | #38 | |
| DWC | Jul 2012 | #34 |
Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:29 PM
jody (26,624 posts)
1. I like "mandatory psychological evaluations before voting or driving or . . . "
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We the People are dead, long live We the Government and those behind its screen who control both major parties!
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:29 PM
Clames (2,038 posts)
2. Holmes probably would have passed the psych eval.
Response to Clames (Reply #2)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 07:11 PM
Tuesday Afternoon (43,914 posts)
15. we need to wait for more evidence on that but, honestly I doubt it.
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I will not be surprised to find that he is paranoid schizophrenic.
Symptoms By Mayo Clinic staff Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include: Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you Anxiety Anger Emotional distance Violence Argumentativeness Self-important or condescending manner Suicidal thoughts and behavior With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention. Key symptoms Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia. Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you. Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may make ongoing criticisms of what you're thinking or doing, or make cruel comments about your real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices. more at link: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/paranoid-schizophrenia/DS00862/DSECTION=symptoms |
Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #15)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 07:31 PM
Clames (2,038 posts)
18. He fooled pretty much everyone who knew him casually.
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Psych evals are not fool proof. In fact a lot of people get by initial one quite easily.
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Response to Clames (Reply #18)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 07:36 PM
Tuesday Afternoon (43,914 posts)
19. casual, yes. psych eval, maybe. like I said we need to wait for more evidence
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 07:41 PM USA/ET - Edit history (3) but, already I note several of the signs of ps. I really doubt he can hide ps on a psych eval. really doubt that. IF that is what he is.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:30 PM
Loudly (1,177 posts)
3. Don't limit your thinking.
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And make sure you are on the correct side of the advocacy.
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Response to Loudly (Reply #3)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:38 PM
NewMoonTherian (883 posts)
4. But which side is the correct side?
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Is there a correct side, or are there two sides with equally legitimate concerns?
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Response to NewMoonTherian (Reply #4)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:48 PM
Loudly (1,177 posts)
5. People can decide whether going to war with the police and army is legitimate.
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Stated in this way, the consensus will be repulsed by such 2A claims.
And when such claims are laughed off the stage, we can get ahead of the problem as acted out in Aurora, Tucson, Fort Hood, Blacksburg, Binghamton... |
Response to Loudly (Reply #5)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:58 PM
TPaine7 (4,286 posts)
6. The logical conclusion of your argument is that we should quickly and humbly
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surrender to the British and agree to exist as a colony.
If the people cannot decide when to go to war with their government--including police and armed forces--then the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not merely flawed (by the hypocrisy of slavery, for instance) but totally incorrect and the Revolutionary War was criminal. Why don't you try convincing the American people (or the Brits for that matter) that we are by right an unfree and dependent people--a colony--and see who gets laughed off the stage?! I'll wait. |
Response to Loudly (Reply #5)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:13 PM
SkatmanRoth (135 posts)
9. People have "gone to war" with the police, and the people won
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Prehaps you should review the Battle of Athens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_%281946%29 https:// |
Response to Loudly (Reply #5)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:48 PM
permatex (1,299 posts)
13. Glad you brought those up
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the majority of those mass killings took place in where??????????
GUN FREE ZONES. Imagine that, a person with murderous intent picks a venue that is a GUN FREE ZONE. Why do you suppose that is? |
Response to permatex (Reply #13)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:29 PM
DWC (856 posts)
33. The silence of No Response is deafening. n/t
Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 05:59 PM
ileus (9,212 posts)
7. of those two only banning firearms would come close.
Response to ileus (Reply #7)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:04 PM
permatex (1,299 posts)
8. And even then
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it won't stop the criminals from acquiring guns, so in essence, not even a ban will work.
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Response to permatex (Reply #8)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:26 PM
ileus (9,212 posts)
10. I think a ban would work with enough police searches and time.
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door to door searches for several years....eventually they'd get the bulk of the firearms and ammo out of circulation. Of course nothing would change but people would feel good about guns and ammo out of civilian hands, people would still kill other people.
But hey we'd all feel better....right? |
Response to ileus (Reply #10)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:38 PM
permatex (1,299 posts)
11. But thats assuming that a civil war
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wouldn't erupt when the cops kill the first person who doesn't turn over their firearms. I think that a ban would be met with massive civil disobedience with alot of street cops refusing to enforce it. INHO, it just won't work or happen.
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Response to ileus (Reply #10)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 07:15 PM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
16. What are your thoughts on drug testing welfare recipients?
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Unjustified invasion of privacy amounting to a warrant less search?
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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #16)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 07:18 PM
gejohnston (12,596 posts)
17. he is our Steven Colbert
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in case you haven't noticed.
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Response to gejohnston (Reply #17)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 02:14 AM
alabama_for_obama (133 posts)
30. Except not so funny, and seems to believe own nonsense.
Response to alabama_for_obama (Reply #30)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:22 AM
gejohnston (12,596 posts)
31. be here long enough
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trust me.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:44 PM
Tuesday Afternoon (43,914 posts)
12. simple minds / simple solutions. easy peasy. right.
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wrong.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 06:56 PM
Fredjust (52 posts)
14. Not simple...
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Totally agree Atyp. Never say never though. It's possible, but we have to find a way to shift the political balance so as to eliminate Rethuglican's form power, and shift to either a 1 party system OR, ideally, a multi-party system where all the parties are different shades of Progressives.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:08 PM
soccer1 (343 posts)
20. Nothing will stop a person like Holmes.....
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Last edited Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:08 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) That's my opinion. If he had no guns, he'd used explosives, or mow people down with a vehicle. I really don't believe that even banning all guns and firearms can derail people like Holmes from carrying out mass murders.
Having said THAT, I do believe that sensible gun regulations would decrease the number of homicides in this country. Much else needs to be done as well....but sensible regulations, well, only make sense. |
Response to soccer1 (Reply #20)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:11 PM
gejohnston (12,596 posts)
21. OK cool,
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what is sensible? What current laws are not sensible?
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Response to gejohnston (Reply #21)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:41 PM
soccer1 (343 posts)
22. I don't know all the gun control laws in all the states but...
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I'll name a few I believe are reasonable.
1. Permits for all guns and firearms 2.To get a permit: a full background check must demonstrate (written test) knowledge of how your gun works and the gun laws of your state. 3. For open carry or concealed carry: all of the above plus a range test to demonstrate you know how to use the gun 4. All private sales must be documented and submitted to a designated agency . If a person buying privately is a first time gun owner they should have to go through the same procedure as those who buy from gun stores. These are just some thoughts....I'm sure there are more. |
Response to soccer1 (Reply #22)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:52 PM
gejohnston (12,596 posts)
23. I was going for federal laws, but I'm guessing
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you don't know those very well.
If you require a permit to have a gun, just have the private seller keep a record of the person's permit number. IIRC, Illinois works that way. There you have a FOID. You need the FOID to buy guns or ammunition. I'm not a fan a permit for the gun like North Carolina does for pistols. Some European countries do that as well. |
Response to gejohnston (Reply #23)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:53 PM
soccer1 (343 posts)
24. I can familiarize myself with the current federal laws....
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when I do, I'll get back to you.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 10:55 PM
customerserviceguy (14,715 posts)
25. This guy was a graduate student in neuroscience
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with a zero criminal history. He would have passed any psychological evaluation possibly given for gun or ammo possession.
This was absolutely unpreventable. |
Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #25)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 11:23 PM
Atypical Liberal (5,412 posts)
27. That remains to be seen.
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I've already heard of people saying he was "shy".
The story is just beginning on this. We have no clue about this guy's background. |
Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #27)
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 07:24 AM
customerserviceguy (14,715 posts)
36. A lot of geeky types fit that definition
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We're not going to lock them all up, or deny them rights that the socially gregarious are allowed to have.
We have seen quite a few glimpses of his background, there were a lot of classmates, both high school and college who were interviewed by reporters over the weekend. |
Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 12:21 AM
rrneck (13,771 posts)
28. Third option:
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Harden the target. Imagine what that would look like.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 01:49 AM
Speck Tater (10,618 posts)
29. Psych evaluations are too subjective
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You can always find two "experts" who will disagree about the mental stability of a given person, and if the person turned down contests the ruling and his lawyer brings in another "expert" the original ruling gets overturned and the whole exercise becomes a waste of taxpayer money.
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Response to Speck Tater (Reply #29)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:18 PM
Atypical Liberal (5,412 posts)
32. Yeah, but for a lot of these guys, it doesn't take a rocket scientist.
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I mean, just look at this Holmes guy in court. The guy looks spaced out.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #32)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:01 PM
Speck Tater (10,618 posts)
35. And that could be an act too.
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Some psychopaths are probably smart enough to know how to avoid being correctly diagnosed.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Reply #32)
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 09:15 AM
4th law of robotics (6,801 posts)
37. And if the "he looked kinda funny" test happens to primarily hit certain groups?
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Like say blacks.
Would that be ok? |
Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #37)
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 07:50 PM
Atypical Liberal (5,412 posts)
38. I'm not advocating this.
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If you read my post, you will see that I said neither of these things will work.
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Response to Atypical Liberal (Original post)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:44 PM
DWC (856 posts)
34. The possibility of armed citizens shooting back
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may not stop all such crazies, but it will definitely reduce the number of incidences and the carnage inflicted by the shooters.
Gun Free Zones are simply Threat Free, Target Rich environments for mass murderers. Semper Fi, |


