Even Fox News Is Outraged Over Montana's NRA-Backed Castle Doctrine Law

[SecularMotion]

Fox News host Megyn Kelly sharply critiqued a Montana self-defense law that has been cited by the local prosecutor as the reason that Brice Harper will not face charges after fatally shooting Dan Fredenberg in Harper's garage on September 22. Fredenberg, who was unarmed, entered the garage to confront Harper who was having an affair with his wife.

During Thursday's segment on American Live, Kelly stated "it looks like that guy who did the shooting, who was having the affair is going to get away with it" and said that Harper "is getting off. Why? Because of the 'stand your ground' law or the 'castle doctrine' in Montana." Kelly also expressed the belief that the law effectively makes the punishment for unlawfully entering someone's property "the death penalty."

Montana's "castle doctrine" law allows an individual to use deadly force while in their home if the individual has a reasonable apprehension of assault. The deadly force requirement was created in 2009 by HB 228, a bill that expanded the circumstances under which deadly force could be used in self-defense and also loosened rules on the carrying of concealed weapons in public.

While the bill was under consideration, National Rifle Association lobbyist Brian Judy called it "our most important bill of the session." The proposed legislation, however, was opposed by some members of law enforcement who cited public safety concerns.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/10/25/even-fox-news-is-outraged-over-montanas-nra-bac/190934

[gejohnston]

1. Montana's law is not that unique

45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:

(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

Megan Kelly is a dimwit. I would prefer to see all of the facts from the investigation and not some bullshit from Fox or Media Matters.

Edit to add, I noticed the article forgot to mention the dead guy was drunk and had a record of violence and had been arrested for domestic abuse.

[a geek named Bob]

2. No disrespect, SecularMotion, but I don't see the problem...

While I find the shooter to show advanced poor taste, the "victim" was on the shooter's property, and could be construed as showing hostile intent.

[tularetom]

3. Sorry but it doesn't appear to me that law is all that outrageous

If somebody enters your property and threatens you to the point that you are afraid for your safety or even your life, you should be able to take whatever action you feel is warranted.

If you don't want to get shot don't intrude on someone elses property and challenge them.

In this case it appears that one asshole shot another asshole but that won't always be the case.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. isn't Fox a RW source? oh yeah - it is OK if it suits Your Agenda. right.

Last edited Sun Oct 28, 2012, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

excuse me but, your double standard is showing...

[ileus]

5. I recommend not advancing on people...you could end up taking a dirt nap.

safety first attacking someone later...

[Piazza Riforma]

6. Wrong, wrong, wrong

The best revenge on a guy who is sleeping with your wife is not to confront him but instead let him have her. She'll most likely do it to him as well.

Plus you don't give a slimy boy (a man doesn't sleep with another man's wife) the pleasure of eliminating the competition.

[a geek named Bob]

8. well said. n/t

[Trunk Monkey]

9. If they'll cheat WITH you, they'll cheat ON you. NT

[Piazza Riforma]

16. Dad used to tell me

not to get involved with married women. Said it would bring nothing but trouble. Looks like he was right.

[ileus]

27. A friend of mines Dad (and the wife) was killed like that.

The old coming home early cliche isn't always a cliche.

[gejohnston]

21. From what I read in other articles

the dead guy was a drunk that abused her. If that is the case, he deserved the cheating and whatever else.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Previously discussed on DU and demonstrates why we should never listen to Fox

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021633458

The NYT referenced this PDF of the letter the DA wrote to the police laying out his decision not to prosecute. Its a good read. It lays out facts that IMO change the nature of the case. Fox focused on the cuckolding it its usual salacious way. Its worth reading if you want to know the facts in the case.

http://www.ravallirepublic.com/pdf_326cb5e1-516c-55c6-bbd6-0e79032957cf.html

The shooting seems legal, but I still think it was avoidable. Bad decisions by all parties put the two men together under circumstances that could have only lead to a violent confrontation.

[DanTex]

10. Hmm. So the gungeon trolls have now even eclipsed FOX in terms of right-wing craziness.

[gejohnston]

14. no, Media Matters

repeats Fox misinformation about the facts of the case. I find it pretty ironic.

[Clames]

17. Speak for yourself.

Because that's all you speak for.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. No, the anti rights trolls on DU once again show that they Google dump without research

And are willing to cite Fox to do so...truly amusing

The letter from the DA outlines the facts. The shooter would have not been charged without the changes in the Montana law.

The Fox poutrage was based on the salacious nature of the story and Media Matters, SM, and you jumped on that bandwagon.

Well done...

[DanTex]

26. LOL. A "professor" who doesn't know what it means to "cite" something.

The source being cited is mediamatters, which is a liberal media watchdog. The kinds of things that I end up having to explain...

[friendly_iconoclast]

19. Hmm, *you* wanted anyone who links to right-wing sources to be suspended or banned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117264345#post5

I say anyone who links to right-wing sources should be suspended or banned.

I guess it's different if you like what the right-wing source says.

Hypocrite.

[DanTex]

24. LOL. Since when is mediamatters a right-wing source?

You do understand that talking about FOX News is different from citing FOX News.

[gejohnston]

25. Media Matters repeated the same misinformation

from Fox as fact.

[DanTex]

28. You missed the entire point of the OP.

The point being that the SYG law is too absurd even for the gun-loving right-wing idiots at FOX News. Kind of like the time that Chris Wallace pointed out on FOX that Mitt Romney's tax numbers don't add up, and many liberal commentators pointed out that "even FOX admits that..."

Now, I know that this is an ultra-complicated idea, but I think that if you really dedicate yourself, with a few days of effort, even you can eventually comprehend it.

[gejohnston]

30. I'm glad you saw the point

but it doesn't change the fact that Fox was ignorant of the facts of the case and Media Matters repeated it.

Now, I know that this is an ultra-complicated idea, but I think that if you really dedicate yourself, with a few days of effort, even you can eventually comprehend it.

One thing I noticed about condescending and patronizing people who put on airs, they are not as smart or educated as the claim to be.

BTW, do you know Montana's SYG law? I doubt Megan Kelly knows, I doubt she even knows what the term even means.

[DanTex]

31. It's too bad you didn't.

MediaMatters isn't getting its facts from FOX. It is just pointing out that, in this case, even FOX concedes that the laws have gone too far.

I'm fully aware that the gungeon trolls have their own set of "facts", and in most cases you are right in line with FOX and WashingtonTimes and Glenn Beck. But in this case, you are so far to the right that FOX News is closer to the reality-based community than you are.

[gejohnston]

34. actually they did

and Montana law isn't different than California's. In fact, it isn't that different from English Common law. If you care to, read the statute someone posted in this thread. If Media Matters were serious watch dogs, they would research the law and the facts of the case and see what Kelly was talking about. What MM did amounts to petty "see, even they think so" without even checking.

I'm fully aware that the gungeon trolls have their own set of "facts", and in most cases you are right in line with FOX and WashingtonTimes and Glenn Beck. But in this case, you are so far to the right that FOX News is closer to the reality-based community than you are.

Do you have that on autotext? Both the law and the reasoning for the DA's decision are posted here, actually read something before hitting the autotext button.

[DanTex]

36. Blah blah blah. Yes, I know, the entire world is wrong except for a few paranoid gun nuts.

We've heard the story before gej, this isn't the first time the gungeon trolls have their own set of facts. What makes this one fun is that the gun nuts have gone too far right even for FOX News. Kind of like Romney's tax plans.

[gejohnston]

37. we have copies of the law and the DA's rational

you have nothing. BTW, did Brock ever apologize to Anita Hill for calling her "a little nutty, a little slutty"?

[DanTex]

38. The word is "rationale".

And, yes, I'm fully aware that NRA bubblers have an uncanny ability to toss up some random links and claim that they prove that the rest of the world is wrong except for Grover Norquist and Glenn Beck.

[gejohnston]

39. so my homophone check is broke

http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca_toc/45_3_1.htm
http://www.ravallirepublic.com/pdf_326cb5e1-516c-55c6-bbd6-0e79032957cf.html
random links?
Name dropping to people who have nothing to do with it might work among the dimmer and naive members of the Starbucks roundtable, but it looks like desperation to the rest of us.

[DanTex]

40. Ummm, yeah! Of course it is!

"Namedropping". LOL. I'm just enjoying the fact that y'all are too loony even for FOX News. It's really not that complicated. I mean, I'm used to hearing gungeon trolls complain that the progressive media or the MSM (not to mention the scientific community) has some kind of "anti-gun bias", which is the usual justification for all the links to FOX and WND and WashingtonTimes, but when even FOX News is abandoning you, you've gone pretty far off the deep end.

[rDigital]

29. Yep. nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. Hiding behind Media Matters' "center-left reputation", eh?

A fine example of 'sourcewashing' by those who think the genetic fallacy applies "to thee, but not to me"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117273186#post12

DanTex (2,467 posts)
12. Apparently you cared enough to try and hide behind the Guardian's center-left reputation.

View profile
Like I said, loony right-wing conspiracy theories by people trying to score points against the Obama administration during the election cycle are a dime a dozen. There's nothing of substance here.

Just more of that double standard mentioned earlier...

[Eleanors38]

23. Does the head of Mediamatters still employ an armed bodyguard?

[ileus]

11. So you'd agree with FOX if it fits your agenda?

[friendly_iconoclast]

20. That lot has *quite* the double standard re acceptable sources. Check these out:

Fox, et al, are fine if you have the proper antigun credentials- but woe betide the stroppy gunner that cites them! They'll be called a troll, or worse...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117259880#post22

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117264345#post5

I say anyone who links to right-wing sources should be suspended or banned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117248459#post33

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117211061#post8

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121818006

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=386913&mesg_id=386929

[gejohnston]

22. mention it in Meta, see what happens nt

[DanTex]

33. In meta you would be laughed at.

Only in the gungeon do you find people who can't tell the difference between citing FOX as a reference, and citing a mediamatters article about FOX News. The people in meta are mostly progressives that have never been subjected to the NRA brainwashing.

[gejohnston]

35. you didn't click on the links did you?

SM does cite Fox directly, therefore he should be suspended or banned.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/121818006

[friendly_iconoclast]

42. What's that sound I hear?

[ManiacJoe]

12. While Montana's laws could be written a bit tighter,

... the prosecutor's findings are right on according to the current evidence and reports.

http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/mca_toc/45_3_1.htm

http://www.ravallirepublic.com/pdf_326cb5e1-516c-55c6-bbd6-0e79032957cf.html

[Jenoch]

13. I happened to see this segment.

I was at my father's house and he was watching it while I attempted to fix his malfunctioning laptop. Anyway, the Fox News women on this program were outraged but they had several facts in this case wrong. I remember another thread about this incident and i read the news accounts of it then and surprise, surprise, Fox did not have all of the facts.

[trouble.smith]

15. One thing I've learned, there's the story they tell you, & then there's what really happened

and this story reeks of something foul.

[slackmaster]

32. California's Castle Doctrine law would possibly have justified the shooting if it had happened here

Montana's law is not substantially different.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. It is pretty clear that it would have been cleared in CA too.

The assailant kept charging after he was warned and then wounded. That it ample demonstration of intent. No law in CA or MT that says your have take a beat down from a a large angry drunk, even if you are involved with his wife.