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ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:48 AM Dec 2012

The President of the United States of America has a message for you...

I’ve been reflecting on this the last few days, and if we’re honest with ourselves, the answer’s no. We’re not doing enough. And we will have to change. Since I’ve been president, this is the fourth time we have come together to comfort a grieving community torn apart by mass shootings, fourth time we’ve hugged survivors, the fourth time we’ve consoled the families of victims.

And in between, there have been an endless series of deadly shootings across the country, almost daily reports of victims, many of them children, in small towns and in big cities all across America, victims whose -- much of the time their only fault was being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

We can’t tolerate this anymore. These tragedies must end. And to end them, we must change.

We will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true. No single law, no set of laws can eliminate evil from the world or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society, but that can’t be an excuse for inaction. Surely we can do better than this.

If there’s even one step we can take to save another child or another parent or another town from the grief that’s visited Tucson and Aurora and Oak Creek and Newtown and communities from Columbine to Blacksburg before that, then surely we have an obligation to try.

In the coming weeks, I’ll use whatever power this office holds to engage my fellow citizens, from law enforcement, to mental health professionals, to parents and educators, in an effort aimed at preventing more tragedies like this, because what choice do we have? We can’t accept events like this as routine.

Are we really prepared to say that we’re powerless in the face of such carnage, that the politics are too hard?

Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year after year is somehow the price of our freedom?

Full Transcript: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/president-obamas-speech-at-prayer-vigil-for-newtown-shooting-victims-full-transcript/2012/12/16/f764bf8a-47dd-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_story_1.html


Are you with the President or against the President in his desire for progressive gun control reform?

56 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The President of the United States of America has a message for you... (Original Post) ellisonz Dec 2012 OP
You might be reading more into it than what he said gejohnston Dec 2012 #1
And when that is the progressive gun control reform... ellisonz Dec 2012 #2
if it is a good idea, gejohnston Dec 2012 #3
So the President has no intention of carrying out his promise to do everything in his power... ellisonz Dec 2012 #4
Hopefully he has every intention of carrying out his promise. ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #6
I think he was pretty clear... ellisonz Dec 2012 #9
Support as long as AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #11
SCOTUS has left a mighty big hoop through which to pass gun control... ellisonz Dec 2012 #12
If it was constitutional and made sense, yes. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #15
Let's say it brings federal legislation up to California's level... ellisonz Dec 2012 #18
I would say no. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #19
So you're drawing the line at having a detachable magazine for your semi-automatic rifle? ellisonz Dec 2012 #21
Yeah. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #23
IIRC, gejohnston Dec 2012 #25
Absolutely, I would support him, but... ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #13
Probably because your definition... ellisonz Dec 2012 #14
Depends bobclark86 Dec 2012 #16
Are you sure we are reading the same excerpt? pipoman Dec 2012 #31
Why would you expect specifics in a memorial oration? ellisonz Dec 2012 #41
Except you are claiming specifics.. pipoman Dec 2012 #45
Are you genuniely unaware that the POTUS doesn't pass laws? holdencaufield Dec 2012 #38
That's out of right-field. ellisonz Dec 2012 #40
The expression is ... holdencaufield Dec 2012 #42
I noticed that he didn't say the words "gun" or "firearm" even once. Interesting. nt rDigital Dec 2012 #5
Seriously? "mass shootings" "deadly shootings" ellisonz Dec 2012 #7
Smart speech writers. ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #8
With. I'll leave you to imagine what 'progressive' means in this context. AtheistCrusader Dec 2012 #10
And if the President doesn't propose effectively rolling back the 2nd Amendment Azathoth Dec 2012 #17
So you're opposed to the President on this issue? ellisonz Dec 2012 #27
lol, so far you seem to be the only one opposed to the President Azathoth Dec 2012 #33
You didn't answer my question so I'm not answering your tantrum... ellisonz Dec 2012 #34
lol, you've got to be a little more clever if you want to troll Azathoth Dec 2012 #36
Re-read your post #17. ellisonz Dec 2012 #39
And...what? You're upset that I repeated stuff from GD? Azathoth Dec 2012 #44
Gungeoneers excel at circular billh58 Dec 2012 #53
for example? gejohnston Dec 2012 #54
He's like that: "Are you now, or have you ever been a member..." Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #55
Your small tent is losing stakes every time you post here. Clames Dec 2012 #20
And what tent do you belong to? ellisonz Dec 2012 #22
The big tent. The part surrounding yours but doesn't have barbed wire and an application fee. n/t Clames Dec 2012 #24
Post removed Post removed Dec 2012 #26
Poor you... Clames Dec 2012 #28
Funny how you've been hiding in the Gungeon... ellisonz Dec 2012 #29
I've posted in GD, LBN, and Meta these last few weeks. Clames Dec 2012 #32
Noticed that as well. Ironic. Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #56
Just can't be civil can ya? pipoman Dec 2012 #35
I lost my restraint with that one... ellisonz Dec 2012 #37
Good for you kid. Clames Dec 2012 #43
Be nice. Remmah2 Dec 2012 #50
Until I see what his reform proposals are specifically S_B_Jackson Dec 2012 #30
I've been progressive on firearm rights for years. ileus Dec 2012 #46
That was bullshit when Bush said it too. Callisto32 Dec 2012 #47
It will depend on the nature of the proposed gun control. Atypical Liberal Dec 2012 #48
I'm really curious about how he'll proceed. jeepnstein Dec 2012 #49
Locking krispos42 Dec 2012 #51
Unlocking, and kick n/t krispos42 Dec 2012 #52

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
2. And when that is the progressive gun control reform...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 01:54 AM
Dec 2012

...as he's called for in the past - will you support or oppose the efforts of President Obama?

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
3. if it is a good idea,
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:04 AM
Dec 2012

other than that let's see. Your say so doesn't make it progressive. One could argue that a AWB is regressive because it would be returning to something past.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
4. So the President has no intention of carrying out his promise to do everything in his power...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:05 AM
Dec 2012

...to end this horrible gun violence?

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
6. Hopefully he has every intention of carrying out his promise.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:12 AM
Dec 2012

However, his ideas on how to achieve that may differ from your ideas.

I agree that folks are currently reading way too much into that speech that was not actually said.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
9. I think he was pretty clear...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:16 AM
Dec 2012

I'll take any new gun control measures that put a stop to the excesses of our diseased gun culture in this country.

Will you support or oppose the President if he puts forth (as expected) progressive gun control legislation?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
11. Support as long as
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:19 AM
Dec 2012

it's both constitutional, and makes some sort of goddamn sense. (1994 AWB as an example of something that did NOT make sense)

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
12. SCOTUS has left a mighty big hoop through which to pass gun control...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:23 AM
Dec 2012
(2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

Heller v. DC


So you would support an improved upon AWB?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
15. If it was constitutional and made sense, yes.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:30 AM
Dec 2012

Rather than open ended questions, why not start a thread on specifics that you would like to see Congress take up? Or perhaps one thread per item, so as to keep the chatter down.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
18. Let's say it brings federal legislation up to California's level...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:54 AM
Dec 2012

...minus the restriction on CCW. What say you then?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
19. I would say no.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:55 AM
Dec 2012

Because the bullet tool/fixed mag restriction is silly.

I'm ok with the registration. Not ok with the fees. Do it like the NFA registry. A one time fee.
Otherwise ok on the rest of it.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
23. Yeah.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:02 AM
Dec 2012

You can limit size/production of new ones. My rifles are not designed to have fixed mags. So I would object to that. If you want to limit them to 10 or 20 rounds (designed for 30, but whatever), that's fine.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
25. IIRC,
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:05 AM
Dec 2012

California law views every Olympic pistol team as using "assault weapons" because of magazine location. I wouldn't call that "up to" anything.

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
13. Absolutely, I would support him, but...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:26 AM
Dec 2012

you and I probably don't agree on the unstated definition of "progressive gun control legislation".

bobclark86

(1,415 posts)
16. Depends
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:33 AM
Dec 2012

on what it is. Sorry, I like to read bills before I decide whether to support them or not. I'm still pissed off over lack of single-payer health care and the PATRIOT Act.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
31. Are you sure we are reading the same excerpt?
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:19 AM
Dec 2012

I'm not seeing any of the stuff you are talking about.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
41. Why would you expect specifics in a memorial oration?
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:34 AM
Dec 2012

Moreover, the President clearly states that they are going to take a hard look at this and come up with the specifics. You don't really think President Obama is going to put something up the NRA and their sycophants are going to love?

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
45. Except you are claiming specifics..
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:43 AM
Dec 2012

It's been a long time since any gun legislation has been passed federally which was not backed by the NRA.

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
38. Are you genuniely unaware that the POTUS doesn't pass laws?
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:30 AM
Dec 2012

Did you nod off in Civics class that day?

What do you calculate the odds of getting any gun control through the current congress?

HINT: You're going to need a science geek calculator

 

holdencaufield

(2,927 posts)
42. The expression is ...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:36 AM
Dec 2012

... "Out of LEFT field". You didn't play outdoors a lot when you were a kid, did you?


Here's a comprehensive explanation on how laws are passed in the US

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
7. Seriously? "mass shootings" "deadly shootings"
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:14 AM
Dec 2012

Maybe he's talking about cars, knives, and baseball bats

Azathoth

(4,608 posts)
17. And if the President doesn't propose effectively rolling back the 2nd Amendment
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:52 AM
Dec 2012

Will you be with the President, or will he become just another murder-enabling gun nut with blood on his hands?

Azathoth

(4,608 posts)
33. lol, so far you seem to be the only one opposed to the President
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:21 AM
Dec 2012

In fact, you're so far out of step with him that you seem to feel the need to insert words into his mouth.

Now let's be straight up: I don't have any problem with what he said in his speech. But he didn't actually propose anything in his speech either. So, now that I've answered your question, answer mine. If the President does not propose vast new gun control measures, will you be with him, or will he just be another gun nut?

Azathoth

(4,608 posts)
36. lol, you've got to be a little more clever if you want to troll
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:28 AM
Dec 2012

I thought you were at least going to try

billh58

(6,635 posts)
53. Gungeoneers excel at circular
Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:39 PM
Dec 2012

arguments because they have received so much indoctrination from the NRA. You know very well the answer to your question: no, none of us are expecting a repeal of the 2nd Amendment, nor are we calling for one.

You, on the other hand, are scared that your precious "it's all about me" rights may be curtailed to something more reasonable than arming every fucking person on the planet.

It's time to let the grownups decide who gets to play with which toys, and where. Throw all the tantrums you want, but you are being sent to your room. And, too bad about AtypicalLiberal, but he's been given a time out.

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
54. for example?
Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:10 PM
Dec 2012

Grownups don't make shrill and irrational rants, and use every imaginable logical fallacy pretending to be rational. That is the problem with the gun control movement.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
20. Your small tent is losing stakes every time you post here.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 02:56 AM
Dec 2012

Black and white thinking is a sad habit to get into and a tough one to kick...

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
24. The big tent. The part surrounding yours but doesn't have barbed wire and an application fee. n/t
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:03 AM
Dec 2012

Response to Clames (Reply #24)

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
28. Poor you...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:14 AM
Dec 2012

...I forgot subtlety doesn't work with you. Let me try again. Your small, shrinking tent is what is surrounded with barbed wire and requires an application fee. Seems it also requires a purity test that requires a perfect score by your measure. Little tents suck...



Filling out the 4473 is free BTW...

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
29. Funny how you've been hiding in the Gungeon...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:17 AM
Dec 2012

...afraid to charge into that gap with your buddies in GD?

You really can't help yourself Clams

I'm going to put you on ignore now because you're really just enjoying this too much. Enjoy your stay at DU.

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
32. I've posted in GD, LBN, and Meta these last few weeks.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:20 AM
Dec 2012

You really can't keep up but then you do spend most of your time whining in Meta... Must be your new hobby.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
37. I lost my restraint with that one...
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:29 AM
Dec 2012

...after about the 10th time he tried to launch a personal attack against me. I'm actually rather convinced 50% of the reason he's here is to attack me - so I've had it and he's now on ignore. That's the humane thing to do at this point. I think he came here to stalk iverglas and is now just stalking me...

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
43. Good for you kid.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:38 AM
Dec 2012

You've been a lousy copycat of iverglas. The harder you have tried the worse you have gotten. Your ego is ten times what hers was and that's saying something. Civility is something you need to get reacquainted with. I'm sure it will be a long and arduous process too.

S_B_Jackson

(906 posts)
30. Until I see what his reform proposals are specifically
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 03:18 AM
Dec 2012

I can't say one way or the other. This nebulous "we must do something" impulse must always be curbed with a determination that it is important that the CORRECT something is done. Engaging in meaningless, ineffective mummery is worse than useless.

 

Atypical Liberal

(5,412 posts)
48. It will depend on the nature of the proposed gun control.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:34 AM
Dec 2012

I am prepared to make some concessions on firearm ownership.

I don't know how far I am prepared to go.

Something needs to be done to make sure that we more fully vet people who are allowed to own firearms.

And firearms need to be secured so that people who have not been vetted can't just take them on a whim.

jeepnstein

(2,631 posts)
49. I'm really curious about how he'll proceed.
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 09:41 AM
Dec 2012

As it stands now lots of people are running around in hysteria wanting to try the failed policies of the past. Let's look at what really makes these school shooters tick and then hit the problem head-on. There's a lot more to it than just taking away everyone's Constitutional Rights in some reactionary move. Since Obama is anything but a reactionary I'm going to just play it cool and see where he goes with it.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
51. Locking
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:34 PM
Dec 2012

Absent proposals for gun laws and other gun-control measures, and considering this is current and ongoing news, GD or Politics 2012 would be a better fit for this post.

Regards,
Krispos42, Group Host

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