Which of these players would you put in Cooperstown?

[True Dough]

Today is voting day for the Baseball HoF. Do the drug cheats get a pass?

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
Jeff Bagwell
Larry Walker
Manny Ramirez
Tim Raines
Ivan Rodriguez
Edgar Martinez
Gary Sheffield
Vladimir Guerrero
Sammy Sosa
Jeff Kent
Fred McGriff

I have a soft spot for Raines and McGriff, a personal bias, but I don't think they'll make it. Bagwell is deserving and was only a few percentage points shy last year. Wouldn't mind seeing Lee Smith get enshrined. He's getting close to the cut-off point...

[True Dough]

1. Raines, Bagwell and Ivan Rodriguez are in!

YEAH!

[El Supremo]

2. Another Denver Bear makes the HOF!

Last edited Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:38 PM - Edit history (1)

[Iggo]

3. Mussina, Walker, Raines, Martinez, Guerrero, McGriff.

[True Dough]

4. It's a shame

that McGriff finished 7 HRs short of 500. The strike-shortened 1994-'95 season is to blame. Still should be in the HoF anyway!

[CanSocDem]

5. That season...

...ruined a lot of things. First off, a 3pete for the BlueJays, but probably the most disturbing fact for MLB was the possibility of an all Canadian World Series. The lockout may have cost them some money but they 'saved their seats'.

A reporter once asked Fred about Jackie Robinson; McGriff didn't know who he was talking about. That's what I remember...


.

[True Dough]

8. Didn't know about the Jackie Robinson question & answer

I hope he read up on Robinson's ground-breaking accomplishments afterward!

[ProfessorGAC]

6. All But Mussina and Schilling

Those guys were very good but not hall of famers. I still think Schilling took steroids, but i'm not excluding anybody for that. What sticks in my throat is that when he first came to national prominence, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team, and his numbers, overall, don't compare to that teammate or guys like Clemens, Maddux, etc. who were pitching on the same time.

I have reservations about Manny because he spent very little time at DH and his terrible fielding was exposed over and over. I still think it's part of the game, and while the AL can hide one guy with an excellent bat, his teams couldn't hide 2, so he played a lot of outfield. He was awful, both through lack of effort and poor instincts. So, if he tried he would have been mediocre at best, but he barely even tried. Yet, he was such a scary hitter, i think he belongs.

I'm a lot less exclusive about the membership in this club than many.

That being said, i still say no to Rose.

[True Dough]

7. Rose is such a polarizing figure

Most are strongly on one side or the other. I have gone back and forth on the issue, to be honest.

But let me ask you, Professor, you are okay with the known drug cheats making it into the hallowed halls of Cooperstown but you're dead set against Rose? Is it because a handful of elite players were caught taking PEDs (and who knows how many other "average" players were consuming them as well), so the problem is generally considered widespread or rampant during this era? Rose is kind of on an island in the sense that he bet on baseball while managing, particularly betting against his own team. So he has committed the more grievous offense?

[ProfessorGAC]

9. A Couple Reasons, True

Now, i don't condone the steroid thing, and i'm not sure i believe the 50% thing, but we know a LOT of people took them, so how many home runs (to use Cub Sosa for an example) did he hit off juiced pitchers vs. clean pitchers. I don't know, and nobody else knows either. If he was clean, how many juiced pitchers would have struck him out with a fastball 5mph faster or a slider that moved 4 more inches because they were juicing, and how many strike out would have been against clean guys? Same answer.

All i know is that 500 home runs used to be the golden ticket to Cooperstown and how a guy with 600 can't get in. And, he never actually got caught, although the reasons for suspicion are pretty darned strong.

He was the best player on his team for several years and one of the most exciting, fan friendly guys in the game. That counts for something.

All that being said, when the steroid thing happened it wasn't really against the rules of baseball. Yeah, Selig was slow to act, and Fehr was obstinate as all get out, but ultimately it wasn't banned by baseball. So, they were unethical but not outside the "law". (Sure, how they went about getting the drugs may have been extralegal, but maybe not.)

When Rose did what he did, the ban against betting on the game in any fashion was in place for 50+ years. And, the lifetime ban as punishment was part and parcel of the rule. Eight guys already paid that price.

And, frankly i don't believe that Rose didn't throw games for his betting benefit.

[True Dough]

10. Sound reasoning, Professor

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I think Cooperstown, if it doesn't already, should have a small exhibit on the drug-use era explaining how PEDs benefit players, the testing regime and the explosive allegations and positive tests.

[ProfessorGAC]

11. I'd Be Good With That

It happened. It's part of baseball history. The fans, although probably unaware of what was happening, were happy. Even though i knew about the suspicions, the McGwire/Sosa head to head was exciting. I guess i just didn't care that much about why. I suppose i could rationalize that since skinny college kid McGwire hit 49 home runs in his rookie year, that it was possible 10 years or so later that he could have become a better, stronger hitter.

Note on that: If McGwire really was juicing, why the heck was he using andro? The steroidal effect of that is about a thousandth of actual anabolic steroids.