Seattle Catholic school's firing of gay official pits state law against religion

[cbayer]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/21/seattle-catholic-schools-firing-gay-vice-principal

The rules are made, and we abide by those rules,' says school's attorney as firing of legally married vice-principal raises questions about the place of gay rights in today's Catholic church

Kristen Millares Young in Seattle
theguardian.com, Saturday 21 December 2013 15.17 GMT


Seattle mayor-elect Ed Murray speaks at a protest against the firing of vice-principal Mark Zmuda. Photograph: Alex Garland/Demotix/Corbis

The students held signs of protest and love in the bitter cold, hoping to change the future of one man and with him, the Catholic church.

Friday was Eastside Catholic high school vice-principal Mark Zmuda’s last day on the job, but no one was at school. Instead, about 80 students demonstrated near the Archdiocese of Seattle to protest his departure, which came soon after the archbishop and school administrators learned that Zmuda had a husband.

Their school closed early for winter break after hundreds of students walked out of class to call for his reinstatement, joined by their peers at Catholic schools in neighboring cities.

Last July, seven months after Washington state legalized same-sex marriage, Zmuda married his longtime partner Dana Jergens in a civil ceremony officiated by Reverend Jan Carter.

more at link

[pinto]

1. Kids these days...

Ya gotta love 'em.

[seattledo]

2. This did not happen in Seattle!

Dammit, stop attacking and criticizing us for what happened elsewhere. I repeat. This did not happen in Seattle. This happened in some place called Sammamish which I doubt even 20% of the people here in Seattle could find on a map. I've never been there, and it's not somewhere I would ever go.

[cbayer]

3. It's described as a suburb.

Is that not correct?

Anyway, Seattle's mayor elect seems to be quite interested in it.

[cleanhippie]

6. You are correct, it's a suburb of Seattle.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Correct. You'll find it east of Bellevue. A city in its own right.

Sammamish/Issaquah is a pretty small suburb. Everyone here pretty much goes somewhere else for entertainment, for example.

Well, they did just put in a theater on the plateau. Still.
I hear we're getting a jimmy johns though, so that's awesome.

[cbayer]

27. Never heard of jimmy john's, but it looks pretty good.

I love that area.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. It's great. We have lots of running trails here.

Tons really. Lots of long distance running events, if you're into that. Some cycling. Lots of fishing.

[cleanhippie]

5. Are you for real? Sammammish is a suburb of seattle.

Just because YOU have no idea what or where it is doesn't mean everyone else shares your ignorance on the matter.

[skepticscott]

7. This "some place" called Sammamish

is part of the Seattle archdiocese, right?

What was your point again?

[seattledo]

8. I just don't like all the people here attacking Seattle

A town in another part of the state (I just looked, and it's an almost 3 hour bus trip each way from where I live) decides to be hateful. Not us. We have nothing to do with this.

[cbayer]

10. Honestly, I don't think it has to do with the town and should not reflect

on Seattle as a whole.

It has much more to do with the Catholic diocese in which the school resides.

And if it can happen close to Seattle, it can happen everywhere.

I don't think it's is, or should be, a reflection on the good people of Seattle.

[cleanhippie]

11. Sammamish is exactly 17.8 miles from Downtown Seattle.

I'm not sure where you live, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

[skepticscott]

20. Mighty slow buses you have out there in Seattle

Is there some reason you're making shit up? Sammamish is not "in another part of the state", and it is not three hours by bus from Seattle. You could not have looked and found that to be true.

[seattledo]

22. maps.google.com and you can see just how long it takes

I've taken the 554 from Seattle to Issaquah several times, and it can easily take over two hours each way if the two transfers needed don't line-up. I just looked it up, and in addition to that long time, to get to that place called Sammamish, you would then have to then take the 269 at best case, and maybe even another bus if your stop isn't near the path it takes between Issaquah and Overlake. It's a long way from Seattle.

[cleanhippie]

23. It's 17.8 miles. That's not "another part of the state"

And it's not "a long way from Seattle."

Why are you making such a big deal out if this!

[skepticscott]

25. That's not three hours of driving time

Most of it is standing around. If someone tried to drive from where you are to there in a car, it wouldn't take three hours or anything close to it.

So why are you so torqued about this that you have to try to place where it happened on another planet? This is about the Catholic Church's bigotry, not the city of Seattle. The RCC does the same sort of thing all over, as noted in the article.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. On a bus, I can get from North Bend to Downtown Seattle in under two hours.

And North Bend is 31 miles from downtown on the same I-90 corridor.
Did it last time I had jury duty because fuck parking downtown.

Good grief, you can get from 5th & Jackson to the Issaquah P&R in 30 minutes on the 554E

What goddamn bus did you take?

[Heddi]

9. 20% of Seattlites can't find Samammish?

I'm sorry that you hang out with the stupid people.

Everyone I know in Seattle (lived there for 13+ years) knows where Sammamish is. And Snohomish. And Snoqualmie, Squim, and Tulalip, and.....

"Some place called Sammamish..." you say it like it's 40 hours from Seattle. It's 20 miles away. It's a suburb of Redmond. You HAVE heard of Redmond, right? Microsoft...Nintendo....

[cbayer]

12. Welcome to the religion group!

Where new people are welcome warmly and made to feel at home.

[rug]

13. Lol! You'd think the Pope was visiting Seattle.

[cbayer]

16. From perusing this member's posts, I would guess s/he would be out protesting

if the pope came to Seattle.

But that's neither here nor there.

[skepticscott]

15. Unless they have very few posts

and they start saying things that have the ring of blatant and verifiable untruth. Then things cool a bit.

[skepticscott]

4. Apparently they've been gulled by the Vatican's PR campaign as well

either that, or they're flat-out lying.

But perhaps they'll learn the hard but necessary lesson that the Catholic Church, in addition to being fundamentally homophobic, is not a democracy. Their doctrines do not change in response to polls, protests, or those cutesy online "petitions" that so-called activists are so fond of. And maybe this generation will escape their parent's attempts at indoctrination sooner than the last. We can only hope.

[rug]

14. In your haste to repeat yourself, you failed to you failed to discern what's pivotal here.

Whether or not this violates secular law.

I suppose it's simply easier to be condescending about the students reaction.



http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022494004_gayprincipalprotestxml.html

[skepticscott]

17. Pivotal? Hardly.

Neither the article in the OP nor yours cites any specific conflict with secular law, and in fact both state explicitly that the law specifically allows religious organizations to be bigoted and discriminatory in hiring practices in ways that other employers cannot. That issue was settled a long time ago, when elected officials caved to the demands of religious officials that they not be required to behave like decent human beings, and that they be permitted to put the alleged demands of their gods and sacred books above that. No one in either of these articles is proposing changes to those laws, so again, how this is "pivotal" to the situation is a mystery. All you have are a few vague whines about unfairness. Well, welcome to the Catholic Church.

As far as the students' reaction, it's not as if their hearts aren't in the right place. But they are operating under a severe case of naïveté about what they will actually accomplish here. If any good comes from this, it will be them learning the lesson that the pope's promise that the church was not going to emphasize sexual issues like this any more was empty and hollow (apparently this archdiocese didn't get the memo), and that certain things will never actually change.

[rug]

18. Do you want the citations?

“Under Washington civil law, he is rightfully married,” Patterson said, but he also asserted the school’s first amendment right to practice its religion. Faith-based and secular employers are treated differently when it comes to complying with US anti-discrimination laws.

This is the legal issue: a court will not enforce an unlawful provision in a contract even while enforcing the balance of the contract. Same sex marriage now has the protection of law in the state of Washington. To fire someone because of his or her marital status is unlawful.

The students' actions are important because they advance the definition of where religious belief ends and secular law begins.

[skepticscott]

19. As noted, no one is challenging the existing laws in this case

because religious organizations have been explicitly exempted from them. The students are just protesting because they think it's unfair in some general and nebulous way and because they want their principal back, not because they're trying to set an overarching legal precedent or define the boundaries of religious privilege. Again, as noted, that issue has been well settled by owned elected officials. Religious organizations have been allowed to fire or not hire people for reasons that would be illegal if anyone else did it for a long time. The fact that same sex marriage is now legal changes nothing.

[rug]

21. "The fact that same sex marriage is now legal changes nothing."

?

[skepticscott]

24. Since you seem to need clarification

The fact that same sex marriage is now legal changes nothing with respect to what I was referring to-the right of religious organizations to discriminate in hiring and firing. Obviously it changes a lot of other things, but churches still have the exact same cherished right to freely practice bigotry.