Orthodox Jews protest against Pope Francis’ mass at Jerusalem site of Jesus’ last supper

[DonViejo]

By Agence France-Presse
Monday, May 12, 2014 19:54 EDT

Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered Monday near the reputed scene of Jesus’s last supper in Jerusalem demanding that Israel keep sovereignty over the site where Pope Francis will celebrate mass.

The pope will visit the Holy Land from May 24-26 and before returning to Rome is set to hold a mass in the site known as the Upper Room or Cenacle, on Mount Zion near the walls of the Old City.

Jews revere the site as the tomb of King David, which is on the ground floor of the same building. The site is also important for Muslims.

“As soon as they touch the ‘status quo’ of this place, bad things will happen,” said rabbi Avraham Goldstein, accusing the Israeli government of wanting to hand the Upper Room over to the Vatican.

Sovereignty over the Cenacle, which was renovated by Franciscans in the 14th century before the group was forced out, is a highly sensitive issue.

more
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/12/orthodox-jews-protest-against-pope-francis-mass-at-jerusalem-site-of-jesus-last-supper/

[Warren Stupidity]

1. It is mocking and insulting for this Christ worshipping cult to act this way.

Or some other bullshit.

Plus this "pope" Francis is just a self promoting attention seeking scam artist.



Jury note: this is a parody of the outrage expressed here over a satanic black mass.

[cbayer]

2. They really need to back down and I am glad to see the general population

and the Israeli government pushing back against their attempts to control everyone and everything.

This could be an important moment for the three major Abrahamic religions to come together in a place they all claim as sacred. I only wish the ultra-Orthodox could see that.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. But those satanist, fuck them, right?

[AtheistCrusader]

4. This is, uh..

This is a perfect parallel for the point the 'satanic black mass' folks were attempting to prove.

Which side is right, and why? Why do these guys need to back down in this case, and not Harvard?

[cbayer]

5. I don't see the parallel at all.

This is a religious sect that is trying to impose their rather extreme and very rigid beliefs on an entire country. That is something that we have repeatedly agree needs to be challenged.

How is that analogous to the position Harvard took in the black mass case? If anything, those coordinating the black mass are the one's analogous to the ultra-Orthodox jews in Israel.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. I see the ultra-orthodox as parallel to the catholics at harvard.

both have 'home field advantage', rejecting a visiting religious group from 'their' site.

[cbayer]

11. Harvard didn't block it at all.

They voiced their strong opinion about it, but never said it couldn't be done.

And it's not a catholic school.

You are conflating two entirely different things.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. They are not different.

The Ultra-orthodox in this case are 'warning' them, and 'against it', but they don't own the land, so they can't stop it.

In this 100% PERFECT PARALLEL the State of Israel plays the part of Harvard University.

It's entirely parallel. You can practically substitute word for word, except on one point. The opposition here is suggesting more than just a petition in response.

[cbayer]

19. Ok, I guess. So I will take my stand with the position both Harvard

and the state of Israel are taking in these cases, and against the extremists who wish to impose their beliefs on a community/country as a whole.

Harvard said, we don't like it, but we won't stop you from doing it.

Israel is saying, we don't care if you don't like it, we are going to do it anyway.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. I think Harvard should have taken the same stance the state of Israel is taking.

It doesn't require special pleading of defining one group as 'extremist'.

[cbayer]

25. Harvard did take the same stance.

Perhaps the confusion here is that you didn't know that?

[AtheistCrusader]

28. As of 11:55pm Boston.Com was reporting that they were stripped of their school affiliation.

They were unable to find another sponsor, so, they had to go off-site.

[cbayer]

31. There is a single article I can find that mentions this "stripping"

and it isn't at all clear what that means.

Did the sponsoring club (the Harvard Extension Cultural Studies Club) decide they didn't want to be associated with the group and that's the stripping?

The Satanic group never had a Harvard affiliation except that this club agreed to host them for this single event.

BTW, they apparently went off site to a bar and spent the evening drinking, which dear Lucien reported to the press as the mass "happening now".

If you can find any corroborating evidence that Harvard University did anything other than voice their objection, I would like to see it.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. It looks like the social group that sponsored it, removed it's backing.

So that would be the group, not the Harvard admins.

So I see why you were objecting. (I read the original version of that article last night, and didn't check it for updates.)



I don't see where the Israeli government is condemning either side here...

[cbayer]

34. The government has been very much opposed to some of the actions

of the ultra-orthodox groups. I think they are very much trying to prevent them from gaining any ground whatsoever.

[edhopper]

8. And the abortion laws in Italy or Ireland

the anti-gay laws in Uganda are not relevant?

I find these fights over places that have no real historic foundation amusing. These sights in Israel are no more than arbitrary locations picked centuries later, that the believers can flock to.

The holy sepulchur and dome of the rock are particularly laughable.

[cbayer]

13. How does this relate to the abortion laws and anti-gay laws.

I am clearly missing the point here.

You can laugh at things other people hold sacred, I guess, though I don't see what purpose that serves.

I'm not going anywhere near the I/P issues that may come up here. But I am going to oppose the ultra-orthodoxy in Israel the is trying to create a theocracy.

[edhopper]

14. The Orthodox

are demanding the State act according to their beliefs. The RCC does this as well, with more severe consequences, especially for woman. When the Pope said Gay couples should not be allowed to adopt, he was asking for rules to prevent it.

See the connection now?

[cbayer]

17. Have you ever seen me support the RCC's position on these issues

or said that they should be permitted to try and impose their beliefs on governments? Have you ever seen anyone here do that.

This "well group A does bad things, but group B does them even badder" makes no sense to me.

Why does everything have to be countered with a jab at the catholic church?

Again, these are issues on which there is pretty much consensus among liberal/progressive democrats. Why would it be used as an opportunity to divide?

[edhopper]

21. Because

hypocrisy (not from you) should be pointed out. Namely the RCC which is being challenged by the Orthodox here, do the same thing. Notable at Harvard right now.
Perhaps if they said "Oh, I see what we do and will refrain from now on" But i don't see that happening.

I am sorry if pointing out the hypocrisy and errors of religion bothers you, perhaps the interfaith group would better suit you.

[cbayer]

24. Please. Is there really a need to insult me here by telling me what group

you think I should be posting in?

I have not issue with you, I am merely having a discussion and trying to understand where you are coming from on this.

I have no interest in fighting with you, exchanging snark or telling you where I think you might be more comfortable hanging out.

[edhopper]

27. I wasn't trying to insult you

just telling you i don't want to refrain from challenging any and all religions when i see fit.

I was pointing out where the more inclusive discussions are, didn't mean to offend, though it probably came off as snarky.

[cbayer]

29. You don't have to refrain from anything. And I am not going to refrain from

challenging statements I think are anti-religion without cause and driven solely by lack of understanding and/or intolerance.

I like it fine right here. I like talking to you. I'm not looking for a cage fight, but I'm also not looking for a rocking chair.

[okasha]

7. The haredim are the guys

who force women to sit at the back of the bus and spit on women wearing pants

Thanks for standing up for them so courageously.

[edhopper]

9. I see you miss the point

why are their harsh views any less relavent than the RCC's. Or do you think that they have not influenced laws that effect religion to a greater degree than the Hasidim every did.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Substitute any actor you wish

I stand up for the principle, not the actors. I am well aware of the problems with this group. I am not defending them.

I am pointing out an inconsistent response by certain parties, to a perfect parallel issue.


Which means, the arguments employed on this thread, or the other thread, must needs not be rooted in principle.
I detest special pleading.


Fuck people that think they have the right to tell women to sit in the back of the bus, or wear certain things, etc. Fuck them right in their ideology. Does that make my position clear?

[okasha]

12. The only problem with your response

is that there is no parallel and you are engaged in special pleading.

[edhopper]

15. So there is no parallel

to anti-abortion laws, anti gay laws, Catholics asking that Satan worshipers can't perform their ritual because it offends them?

You really can''t see the connection?

[AtheistCrusader]

16. You can pretend that all you want.

Doesn't make it true.

The religious group in question doesn't want this visiting religious group to come do a ritual. Neither group owns the land in question.

Parallel is exact.

[okasha]

35. Parallel is nonexistent.

The RCC has a centuries-long historic
association with the Cenacle site. The Satanic Temple has heretofore had no relationship whatever with Harvard.

Like it or not, like him or not, the Pope is the legitimate leader of a legitimate world religion. According to its own website, Satanism is only a "convenient outsider label" for the "SatanicTemple's" political activities--all essentially civil liberties advocacy which the ACLU does far better, with no pretense of being a religion.

The RCC has a real presence in the world. The Satanic Temple's only known location is on the internet.

It remains to be seen whether Doug Meisner, aka Lucien Greaves, is an embezzler as well as a
sham, depending on whether he ever actually produces the Baphomet statue.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. You have to understand

there is no such thing as a 'legitimate' religion to me. A 'legit' religion could be as little as one person strong, given the myriad number of mutually exclusive religions in the world, including only religions numbering 100 million adherents or more.

[okasha]

38. You have to understand

that you don't get to set the definition of legitimate religion for the rest of society. Your private definition is just that: private, and yours.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Close.

You'd be better off if you just admitted there is no objective definition of 'legit religion'. Don't pretend the definition you chose, and is most convenient to your own bias, holds any weight in this conversation.

P.S. You don't get to speak for 'the rest of society'.

[cbayer]

20. Certain parties? Not rooted in principles?

There really is no need to make this personal.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. I think it's been adequately demonstrate the response evoked special pleading.

In fact, it requires it.

Taken entirely separately, the State of Israel has taken the correct course of action here. Harvard didn't.

[cbayer]

26. How do you see their responses as different?

[AtheistCrusader]

30. Not clear.

They are reporting that they lost the social group sponsorship.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/5/12/black-mass-relocated-controversy/

I read that to mean the University dropped them, but perhaps one party removed? (extra-curricular group sponsorship rather than university sponsorship?)

[HockeyMom]

32. Last Supper was a Passover Seder

Jesus did practice Judaism. Both religions should be accommodated on this one. Not quite the same as the Black Mass.

[rug]

36. Naturally, in the rush to bash religion (a twofer this time) the main point is ignored.

demanding that Israel keep sovereignty over the site

But I might be mistaken. State sovereignty must be a religious notion.

[mr blur]

40. Two bald men fighting over a comb. nt