Wiccan claims meth part of religion

[Warren Stupidity]

A woman arrested for possessing drugs and drug paraphernalia told a Duncan police officer it wasn’t against the law because of her religion.

Lori Potarf identified herself as a “Wiccan” when she and a companion, Richard Lee Henderson, were stopped on U.S. Highway 81 Thursday night for a defective tail light, reports said.


Both suspects had separate Crown Royal bags that contained drug paraphernalia on which there was methamphetamine residue, police said.

http://www.duncanbanner.com/news/article_65a51d1a-58d4-11e4-a21d-c7389adf3f3f.html

Seems reasonable to me.

[In_The_Wind]

1. The Wiccans I've known would never do meth.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. So you are saying she is not a "true wiccan"?

That is generally held to be a pretty lame argument.

[In_The_Wind]

4. I'm saying that her reasoning is bogus.

An ye harm none, do what ye will.

IMO: A true Wiccan would not use a drug that harms everyone.

[mr blur]

6. You do know that Wicca is a modern, 20th Century-created 'faith', don't you?

It's about as old as I am. Younger than $cientology. So really, Meth is just another modern "tradition" which might as well be included in it.

[In_The_Wind]

7. I'm fully aware of Wiccan history and beliefs:

Beliefs vary markedly between different traditions and individual practitioners. However, various commonalities exist between these disparate groups, which usually include views on theology, the afterlife, magic and morality.

I agree with LiberalEsto's post http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=158739

[phil89]

37. As if legitimacy comes from the age

of a superstition/religion?

[Cartoonist]

13. That last line

What part of And Merry Meet and Merry Part do you not understand?

[In_The_Wind]

15. Thank the heavens

for smilies.

[LiberalEsto]

5. I agree - this person's claim is nonsense

I was taught, years ago, that our bodies are a gift of the Goddess and should be respected and kept as healthy as possible.

There is no outright prohibition on drugs - if it harms no-one, do as you will. But meth is very harmful to body and mind, as well as harmful to others because of the threat of violence, fire, explosion, child neglect, etc. And harming no-one includes not harming one's self.

[cleanhippie]

8. Her claims are false because "you were taught" something different?

Is there some central authority for Wiccans?

[skepticscott]

9. Careful you don't get accused of

broad-brushing Wiccans. They are all allowed to see the world differently. Just like that story of the 3 blind Wiccans and the elephant. Isn't that what makes the world great? No one gets to decide for anyone else what drug use their religion forbids and what it celebrates.

[cleanhippie]

10. Seems to me that it is LiberalEsto that is broad-brushing Wiccans.

He is implying that there is only one way to practice Wicca; his way.

[skepticscott]

12. Just so

"No True Wiccan" seems to be all the rage...

[LiberalEsto]

36. I never said anything of the sort.

Please re-read my post; I spoke only for myself and the way I was taught.

[skepticscott]

38. False.

QUOTE: "THIS PERSON'S CLAIM IS NONSENSE" (I took your suggestion and re-read your quote):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=158739

So tell us..when you said "THIS PERSON" were you speaking for yourself? Or were you calling someone ELSE'S claim that this was part of THEIR (not YOUR) practice of Wicca a lie?

[LiberalEsto]

39. I should have written "I think this person's claim is nonsense"

but other than that, I would not change a word of it.

[skepticscott]

40. And now the backpedaling starts

Are you admitting that when you said in Post 36 that you were only speaking for yourself, that was untrue?

[LiberalEsto]

41. Have you ever considered getting a life?

Or is sitting around nit-picking strangers your idea of a good time?

I am finding your posts tedious and am putting you on ignore. Go plague someone else.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. So when it was pointed out that you most certainly did

say something of the sort you claimed you hadn't said, your reaction is to insult the person who pointed that out.

Nice.

[skepticscott]

45. My life consists of telling the truth

I'm sorry if being caught in a falsehood is so upsetting to you, but if putting people on ignore is your way of coping, maybe you should take your own advice.

[LTX]

116. A prophet of "the truth." Where have I heard that before?

[okasha]

49. That does indeed seem to be his idea of a good time.

Pathetic, isn't it?

[skepticscott]

68. And jumping into threads to post snark and fling insults seems to be yours

but with intellectual substance and regard for the truth left out.

Glad to see you're holding yourself above the fray, too. You and NYC are just SO noble you should be preserved in marble.

[NYC_SKP]

46. Don't engage them, don't feed them.

There are a number, a handful, of members who live for causing controversy, unnecessarily, in this group, even though they have their own safe haven group.

You might already know that, I'm only just now learning who they are and how they roll.

[skepticscott]

48. And there are a boatload of members who think that the truth is controversial

if it hurts feelings or ruffles feathers. And who think that lies which serve their noble agenda are preferable. And who think that they should be able to dictate and scold concerning what gets posted in an open forum, even though they also have a safe haven. I have no trouble choosing not to belong to that gang.

[NYC_SKP]

51. The snarky and undeserved replies to In The Wind and LiberalEsto in this thread are self-evident.

It's there for all to see, unsolicited and undeserved slams and insults and challenges and accusations.

It's a form of bullying, ya'll seem to think you're some sort of victim due to your identification as atheists/agnostics and that it gives you license to be all defensive and nasty.

Truth is, none of us give a shit what your belief systems are if all you can do is post nasty replies, then all I can do is hope things get better for you.

I've adopted a lot of animals, some with nasty backgrounds and sometimes all the love in the world won't change that.

This is why I have sympathy for mean people, people are animals too and if they're mean, there's usually a reason and that reason is usually that they were mistreated at a younger age.

I can't help but wonder whenever I read DU posts that are just plain mean. I wonder, "what might have happened to make this person so unnecessarily mean and defensive?"



My friends here know of my background working with incarcerated youth with manifest challenges including being victims of molestation, beatings, and even rape.

You know you have a sad group of age 14-18 children when on one day three are in tears simultaneously during class, one of whom suffers from incontinence of his bowels.

In respect of him, I won't share publicly the personal history that this boy bears that lead to such lack of control of his bodily functions.

Many of us here struggle with life's challenges and sometimes that comes out as expressions of belligerence and anger.

Some of us rise above it, and often part of the rising is in helping others out of the abyss.

[skepticscott]

53. You are so cute with your dime store psychoanalysis

and attempts to bait people.

Perhaps you'll be counseling all of the people here who are mean and hostile towards Republicans, too...seems to be a lot of that going around, last I checked. Perhaps you'll be treating all of them like poor abused puppies too, just to cover up your own feelings of helplessness and rage. I'll leave you to that.

[NYC_SKP]

55. I'm a helper. I like to help.

I don't feel particularly helpless or filled with rage.

Unless it's involved with preparing the perfect risotto!

[skepticscott]

69. So I guess your admonition to not engage

was of the same honesty value as our friend's claim to only be speaking for herself. Well joined, then...congrats!

[NYC_SKP]

72. "same honesty value"! You're feisty! I like that!

I like feisty!

[beam me up scottie]

73. Ignore it scott.

Baiting you so your posts get deleted is just another tactic.

Anyone who would suggest that members of another DU group were emotionally unstable and in need of professional help as a way to "get even" already went off the proverbial deep end.

Let the posts stand as a reminder of who really has issues.

And if others want to defend that kind behaviour, let em.

Not worth it.

You're better than that.

[skepticscott]

75. Oh, I have no worries

about how rational and intelligent people will judge things. But it's fun to get stuff out there to bookmark. I just love the posters here who think that nobody remembers or can find what they've said in the past and deny later (even a couple hours later).

[trotsky]

79. Agree 100% with this. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

64. Please point out exactly which "undeserved and snarky replies to In The Wind and LiberoEsto

you are referring to. All I see is people pointing out the fallacies and/or logical implications of statements made by those two people. This is a discussion board. This forum is for discussion of religion and related topics. What we are doing that you are getting all self-righteously bent out of shape about is called "having a discussion".

[Warren Stupidity]

63. right because pointing out the logical implications of what somebody posts is so rude.

And you are here right now in this thread participating not in the discussion of the topic, but in the intramural shit flinging, and doing so while posing as above the fray.

[NYC_SKP]

70. Your own reply #3 to In_The_Wind sounded pretty dismissive to me.

Putting words in her mouth, she didn't say the meth addict wasn't a "true wiccan".

And a whole series of other replies are similarly challenging and nasty, IMO.

[Warren Stupidity]

80. she didn't use the words "true wiccan" she made a "no true scotsman" argument.

this fallacy is made in this forum repeatedly to avoid having to admit that x person or y person is in fact practicing their religious beliefs.

But you aren't here to have a discussion, you are here to have a fight. You pretend that a post on a discussion board that "challenges" is "nasty", while you just show up to directly attack people, not to discuss ideas. Maybe you should create your own forum and have rules that prohibit challenging discussions about religion. Oh wait, there is just such a place, it is the dead zone known as the Interfaith Forum. No challenging discussions there, in fact generally no discussions at all. Here should be just your cup of tea.

[LiberalEsto]

35. SHE (LiberalEsto is a woman) is only stating what SHE was taught

If you will re-read my post, I only spoke for myself as far as what I was taught.

As far as the second paragraph, that was my OWN interpretation of the "harm no-one" part of our creed.

I most certainly did NOT imply or state that there was only one way to practice Wicca. That is your projection of what you wanted to see. Please do not put words in my mouth.

I have been a practitioner of Wicca for more than 40 years, and have studied and celebrated with many different types of Wiccans, Celtic, Dianic and eclectic.

[rug]

11. Who should I believe, someone who knows what they're talking about - or you?

[icymist]

112. Nope! No central authority for Wiccans.

I don't know about others, but I mainly use Alister Crowley's "Do What Thou Shalt Shall Be All Of The Law". This simply means that I do what I do because I am what I am. Now, if I do something stupid, such a carrying around and doing meth, the consequences for breaking state and federal law applies. So, as for this person claiming that meth is part of her Wiccan religion; Good luck with that!

[Politicalboi]

26. Alcohol is right there with it

But I'm sure it's fine because it's legal, and it's used in some religions. You know the "real" religions everyone allows to exist and not question and laws are made to make them happy.

[Sienna86]

54. Well said and explained. nt.

[okasha]

14. I know a good many Wiccans, of several different "schools."

And I've celebrated holy days with them. None uses methamphetamine as a part of their ritual. Some do use wine; groups with members in recovery sustitute water or apple juice.

[In_The_Wind]

16. Everything you've said is true. No ritual includes the use of meth.

[Politicalboi]

28. Why can't meth be the new alcohol?

I myself don't do meth, I'm a pothead. If they feel meth is in their religion, how can they be wrong. Pedophilia has been going on in the Catholic church for centuries, and they still have people in their pews.

[Dorian Gray]

57. It's wrong

because it is an illegal drug and there is no written acknowledgement of tradition of the use of meth in the practice of Wicca. If this person wants to start her own sect, write up the rules of it, and petition for the legality of meth in her practice, she should go for it. Until it is recognized, I'm happy that she is being arrested and her excuse in not being accepted.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. Google says the issue of illegal drugs in wicca and pagan religions is not clear cut.

Some groups publicly state "if its illegal we don't do it", but that is sort of a superficial look at actual practices. Other bloggers not officially representing organizations are more nuanced on the issue:

The general category of drugs is similar. We are told to obey the laws of the land. Yet, shamans, and those of the pagan sort from all walks of life have engaged in recreational and hard core drug use, for both appropriate and inappropriate reasons.

As the United States outlaws the use of marijuana, ecstasy, crack, mushrooms, belladonna and other hallucinogenic drugs, I will not be using them anytime soon. But, I wouldn’t necessarily look down on someone who, in a ritual context, took one of the above drugs to aid in vision questing. As long as it is not drug abuse, they understand the risks, and the occurrences are few and far between, I believe it is appropriate.

http://pagan-pages.org/2007/12/28/drinking-and-drugs-within-wicca/

I don't think this issue is at all as clear cut as lots of people here are insisting it is.

[okasha]

66. Meth isn't mentioned in that quote.

Perhaps you didn't notice that.

Perhaps you also didn't notice that the writer does not place the use of meth in a ritual context. Meth has no known properties as an "aid in vision questing."

[Warren Stupidity]

67. I didn't say it was. I'm referring to statements made here that illegal drugs

are forbidden. It is not that clear cut.

[okasha]

71. The discussion is about methamphetamine, Warren.

This should be at least vaguely clear to you, since you posted the OP. Meth, Warren. Not "illegal drugs" as a general category.

[Dorian Gray]

74. I know you are a smart guy

And I'm sure you know the affects that Meth has on bodies and minds. I can't imagine why any religion would want to use it in a ritualistic way. (And I do get Peyote, pot, mushrooms, and other hallucinogenic drugs.) There are exceptions made for those, and we are on track to legalizing marijuana throughout the states. (At least medically.)

I am not judging the person in the OP. I think she most likely has a drug problem, was caught, and is grasping at straws. Having said that, if she is truly using Meth in a religiously ritualistic way, that is frightening. It increases anxiety and paranoia, as well as blood pressure and heartbeat. That is a hugely dangerous combination. (Physically and mentally.) People with increased anxiety and paranoia make bad decisions all the time.

There are degrees here. Alcohol, hallucinogens, etc.... sure some people may find problems with them. But, in reality, they are not as dangerous as meth.

[Dorian Gray]

76. I am sure there are

many Wiccans (and Christians, and people of other religious backgrounds) who use Meth in a non-religious way. They're all human and just as prone to substance abuse as anyone else. But I don't believe that there is religious tradition of using this substance in the rituals. Sure, one person or sub-group might do so. But should we really debate the legality of it? Especially with a drug like meth.


(This is the second response I have to the same post. I reread thread and felt like approaching this in another way.)

[Warren Stupidity]

110. A religion that dates back to 1954 doesn't really have traditions.

But it is just wildly inconsistent for people here to be defending utter nonsense from one religion while denying that some other utter nonsense is valid on the grounds it doesn't make sense.

By the way meth was legal for decades during which time it did little if any discernable damage to civilization. It got criminalized as part of the stupid ass war on drugs, and like many other similar criminalization efforts, the consequences of criminalization are responsible for the damage now cited as the justification for continued criminalization.

These two idiots, whatever their religious beliefs really are, are being prosecuted for "meth residue" - what the flying fuck sort of crime is that?

As far as I am concerned people can worship any way they fucking want to as long as they don't impose their stupid nonsense on me or others. If using meth is a part of how they worship I am fine with that, but that is because I, like most atheists, am a very tolerant person.

[Dorian Gray]

113. Didn't you see the recent

stories that HITLER was a meth head?

LOL.

I'll show my way out of the thread right now.

[Goblinmonger]

17. But Hobby Lobby tells us

that we can't question those beliefs. Just that they are deeply held.

[okasha]

21. Irrelevant.

Last edited Tue Oct 21, 2014, 10:22 PM - Edit history (1)

The Hobby Lobby owners could at least demonstrate that their beliefs were in fact grounded in their religion and not invented ad hoc to try to duck a drug charge. If these idiots don't have sense enough to plead, all the DA needs to do is call a couple priestesses/priests to the stand and they're toast.

[Politicalboi]

29. "Their beliefs were in fact grounded"

Now you know what we have to put up with. I say let them go.

Rising from the dead, walking on water, healing thousands by touch.

[okasha]

50. Reading comprehension.

Ur doin it rong.

[rug]

22. That's not the holding at all.

[Goblinmonger]

24. ......

“It is not for us to say that their religious beliefs are mistaken or insubstantial,” writes Alito.

[rug]

25. ......

obiter dicta

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1362

holding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_(law)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/13-354

[Goblinmonger]

32. You do know that

1. Scalia wrote Burwell
2. That quotation I gave is from the decision of Burwell.
which leads to
3. What's your point?

[rug]

34. Of course I know that.

And had you read the definition you'd know that judges, especially trial judges, write dicta in their opinions that are not part of the holding. Which is the point that eludes you.

[Goblinmonger]

117. Thought about this discussion last night

as my wife was doing a final edit on her Court of Appeals Response brief and she was worried about a comment the court made in a prior case in a footnote and the impact it might have on her analysis of the same statute.

[rug]

118. Without knowing the issues argued, I'd say she has nothing to worry about.

It is exceedingly rare for any case of substance to be decided by a judge's musings along the way to a decision.

Obiter dicta translates to spoken along the way.

[Dorian Gray]

59. And I disagree with their

justifications, as well. And 4 justices agreed with me. So, while the court ruled in favor of hobby lobby, I hope that nonsense will be overturned at some point, and I think that this (probably) drug abuser is using any excuse to try to get out of trouble.

[hrmjustin]

18. I just emailed a cousin who is Wiccan and she never heard of Meth ever being used in

a ceremony.

Looks like if it is practiced it might be a mall sect or this person was making an excuse to use it.

[FarPoint]

60. That makes sense to me....

Wicca is about nature...balance and projecting positive thought through the help of the universe. Not a complicated spirituality, but a simple ongoing energy.

[cleanhippie]

19. Now you know of one that uses meth in their practice of faith.

Who are you to judge how they practice their faith?

[rug]

23. Who are you to?

[trotsky]

30. The pope and his hierarchy would officially say that...

any Catholic who uses artificial birth control isn't a true Catholic. (In good standing, at least.)

Yet it's laughed about in here about how few Catholics actually follow the church teachings on that and other subjects. Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.

[skepticscott]

33. But...but...That doesn't count!

No one is allowed to tell anyone what being a Real Catholic (r) is. Everyone's spiritual path is unique, and who are we to judge?

[Dorian Gray]

77. I don't believe

that the Pope would say that they aren't a "true" Catholic. Rather that they are going against Catholic doctrine and need to reconcile that before participating in communion.

(I haven't participated in communion in years because I don't go to confession -- for a number of reasons.) I don't believe that means I am not a "true Catholic." I am at odds with some practices, but I go to church (almost weekly) and I believe in the main tenets of the faith.

[trotsky]

78. That's why I added the "in good standing" part.

Regardless, it is rather confusing when people are admonished here for suggesting such-and-such is or is not part of a Christian faith, yet the same people doing that kind of admonishing are now dictating what can or cannot be part of the Wiccan faith.

[Dorian Gray]

83. i know you value consistency

(And in my defense I don't think I do the former.) Though my reaction to this is purely bc it's meth. If it has been cannabis or mushrooms, I would have probably just read the thread and watched the arguments. I have a real visceral reaction to and hatred for crystal meth (family member had issue with it). It's why I can't get through Breaking Bad.

[trotsky]

84. I don't think there's a person on this thread who thinks she truly takes meth as part of her faith.

It's the double standard that we're addressing.

[skepticscott]

100. And what's sad is

that not one of the usual suspects even gets that. They think we actually believe this woman, or that we're just being contrary.

[rug]

104. Then it has nothing at all to do with religion, does it?

Don't let that suppress any flames.

You're not addressing a "double standard" at all; you're promoting a tiresome agenda.

[mercuryblues]

2. I hope

they get a lawyer that will use the Hobby Lobby defense. Denying me the use of meth is creating an undue burden on my sincerely held religious beliefs.

[Iggo]

20. LOL.

Nice try, Speedy.

[Historic NY]

27. Meth was chemically created in the 1880's...not for Wicca's.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Wicca was created after that. Circa 1954.

I see no reason why we should doubt this person's sincerely held religious beliefs.

[Historic NY]

44. Yeah okay, she is with the meth head sect....

along with possession of paraphernalia and such.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. There is no central authority for wiccan doctrine.

If these people believe that meth is a sacrament I see no reason to doubt them.

[kestrel91316]

31. Good luck with that, lady. She can't demonstrate traditional use of meth by Wiccans

because they are some of the LEAST likely people on earth to abuse their bodies that way.

[NYC_SKP]

47. Probably derived this ploy from what she's heard about Rastafari movement....

...and their spiritual use of cannabis, a tradition that has a history, but doesn't get people out of trouble with the law universally.

I guess one can't blame her for trying.

[okasha]

52. You may be onto something with the Rastas.

Other possibility is that she's heard of the exception carved out for peyote use by members of the Native American Church and thinks she can invoke it for meth use. She's wrong on that count, too.

[DeadLetterOffice]

56. Or she was gorked out on meth...

... and said the first thing that popped into her methed-up brain.

[okasha]

58. Also very possible.

[Shrike47]

61. Methies I have dealt with will try any and every excuse. Why not try a religious claim?

At least one former client of mine told me his doctor had prescribed it to treat his STD. OK!

[Goblinmonger]

81. You people kill me.

Is this person gorked out on meth? Probably.

But consistently people in the forum talk about how we need to respect what people say they are religiously. We are constantly told that Catholics that reject teachings of the RCC are still good awesome Catholics. People feel free to use the words agnostic however they choose regardless of what the word actually means. Those that point out the word has a meaning are told that doesn't matter. That people can label themselves as agnostic if they wish.

And now those same people are feeling more than free to tell this woman she is full of shit and that she can't do that because meth has nothing to do with being Wiccan. Guess what, using birth control means you aren't following the rules of the RCC but take a guess at what gets said if people bring that up.

And the funniest part is that you just don't get that your attitude toward this woman is the same thing that guides a lot of atheists in their attitude toward religion. You think it is ridiculous that someone would think meth has anything to do with being Wiccan. Fine. Guess what walking on water, rising from the dead, and virgin birth, just to name a few, sound like to atheists. But you roundly chastise atheists that make the Santa analogy but you gleefully tell this woman she's full of shit.

Thanks for the laughs.

[rug]

82. You sound rather bitter to be laughing.

Are you really unable to distinguish a lame attempt to beat a drug rap from religion?

[Goblinmonger]

87. Are you really unable to distinguish

between your laughing at someone's religion and others laughing at yours?

[rug]

89. Naturally. I just don't let stupidity get in the way.

[Goblinmonger]

92. So when someone says that about transubstantiation

you'll be fine with that.

And virgin birth?
And rising from the dead?
And changing wine to water?
And a million other things that seem stupid to some people?

[rug]

94. I'm fine with any opinion. I'm not fine with stupidity.

Especially deliberate obtuseness.

[Goblinmonger]

88. And, no, you guys are fucking hilarious.

Such glaring hypocrisy has made my day.

[rug]

90. I find hypocrites are usually the first to claim hypocrisy.

It's to be expected if you think about it.

[Goblinmonger]

91. Oh, the "he who smelt it dealt it" standard.

Do you apply that in court, too?

[rug]

93. Uh, no. It comes from an acute understanding of hypocrites.

Not that you have knowledge or actual interest but there is a legal doctrine called "unclean hands".

Here,



you may need more than one.

[Goblinmonger]

96. Because someone points out hyprocisy,

they are actually being a hypocrite? That's seriously your analysis?

So how am I being a hypocrite here? I would like some analysis but I'm sure I'll only get one of your "witty" retorts. If that's what I get, I'll assume you have nothing and we'll be done.

[rug]

98. No, it's because someone makes an accusation of hypocrisy

after it's been pointed out repeatedly they are not analogous, and why.

What's the word you like, deflection?

It is the epitome of hypocrisy.

And yes, we are done here.

[AtheistCrusader]

114. As a matter of fact, on principle, yes.

Probably not the answer you were fishing for, but if you want an honest answer, there it is.

I can find no principle-based distinguishing characteristics by which to discriminate between the two. None.

Maybe that helps you understand my viewpoint.

Smoking a material that has byproducts, the likes of which Germany and Britain tried to gas each other to death with in WWI, makes precisely as obnoxiously little sense to me, as eating the wafers and the cheap wine as the blood and body of some dude from about 2k years ago.

The consequences of the former are perhaps a little more immediately dire, but both have consequences, and both seem, from where I am standing, to be utterly un-rooted in rational choice/thought/analysis. I don't know what it's for. I don't know why people like it. I am inherently distrustful of it because of what I see people do when exposed to it.

Not trying to piss you off or hurt your feelings, just being honest. I do not understand.

[rug]

115. Thanks for an honest answer.

One of few in this thread.

[mr blur]

85. For The Win...

[trotsky]

95. I have it on good authority that the INTERNETS are not yours to award!

For shame, mr blur!

[mr blur]

101. I had no choice - DASWINK!!1! told me to do it.

Must.....obey......

[trotsky]

102. ...

[Act_of_Reparation]

86. It has been a stunning, yet wholly unsurprising display of hypocrisy from the resident idealogues

The same people who will clamber hand over fist to assert a Catholic who does not believe in apostolic succession is no less a Catholic than those that do are now pulling a no true Scotsman on an adherent to a vaguely defined belief system utterly lacking both scripture and centralized doctrine.

I'd laugh if it weren't so fucking depressing.

[trotsky]

97. Bravo, GM!

[skepticscott]

99. This seems to have sent the chorus

of religionistas and apologists scurrying for the exits.

The civility police are always wondering why those groups are treated with such scorn here. It's because they never, ever provide an intelligent, adult response to posts like this. They either double down on their BS, or slip away with their tails between their legs.

[rug]

103. Lol, another inadvertent consequence of Ignore.

[Goblinmonger]

106. That's cute that you think you addressed my point.

Go get yourself a juice box, slugger.

[rug]

107. Certified.

Go gather your accolades.

[okasha]

109. Of course, some of us also have work

and can't spend the whole day waiting for dear ss to drop the next Dingleberry of Wisdom.

[rug]

111. And thfy're such urgent ones.

[beam me up scottie]

105. POINTS!

?w=600&c=1


How uncivil of you to point out the hypocrisy.

Just like the threads where the outraged mock creationists, scientologists and mormons, it's only okay when believers and their apologists do it.

[struggle4progress]

108. Wiccans have been smoking meth since Pictish times !!!

I remember a garden gnome telling me that back when Nixon was still President

Unfortunately I've since lost that source of information: garden gnomes stopping chatting with me shortly after Nixon resigned