HS Students Punished for Not Saying “Under God” When Leading Pledge of Allegiance Over Loudspeakers

[rug]

November 8, 2014
by Hemant Mehta

I’ve written a lot of posts about young atheists who either don’t say the Pledge of Allegiance, or omit the words “Under God” when they do, or remain seated during its recitation.

Just about every story goes the same way: The student does one of those things and gets in trouble, an atheist group sends the school a letter reminding them the dissent is perfectly legal, and the school apologizes.

Not this time.

At Merrill F. West High School in Tracy, California, students in Shauna Baker’s speech and debate class are tasked to read announcements and say the Pledge over the loudspeaker in the morning.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/11/08/high-school-students-punished-for-not-saying-under-god-when-leading-pledge-of-allegiance-over-loudspeakers/

http://www.goldenstatenewspapers.com/tracy_press/news/omitting-under-god-costs-teens/article_21524e4c-663c-11e4-8ddb-e31221b8dd7a.html

[RobertSeattle]

1. My kid will say "Under Canada"

... Because that IS true.

[louis-t]

2. Ha!

[AtheistCrusader]

20. There's no 'up' in space.

[Odin2005]

37. ROFL!

[struggle4progress]

3. "Baker offered an alternative assignment to the students ahead of time and neither accepted"

[Goblinmonger]

9. What's your point?

So they shouldn't be able to say the Pledge over the loud speaker just because they don't want to have to say "under God"?

[struggle4progress]

14. It's a public speaking class assignment for a speech class. Grading criteria

were likely to include matters such as delivery and ability to follow script. The kids have EVERY RIGHT to say or not say the pledge but if they were offered an alternative assignment in advance, they won't get anywhere at all with the complaint because nobody forced them to say the pledge. I think the Pledge is a silly waste of time and the addition "under God" is self-righteous nonsense. When I was in high school during the Vietnam war I wouldn't recite the pledge or even stand when it was recited, and somebody or other was always threatening discipline for that: I stared them in the eye and tell them I didn't believe in saluting a piece of cloth. The bottom line IMO is that this is petty adolescent rebellion, probably coupled with petty adult response, and followed by petty adolescent whining: it's an all-around loser to think about it all

[Goblinmonger]

17. So if, in my speech class,

I created a speaking assignment which was going to be public, but told religious kids they couldn't do it but I had an alternative assignment for them, that would be fine?

Because it seems like the school is saying that atheists can't read the Pledge unless they just suck it up and say the "under God" part which they pretty clearly aren't able to be forced to say. Only those that want to say that get the honor of leading the Pledge in the school.

Having seen 14 years of kids having to say the Pledge every day (state law in WI--say the Pledge or play the National Anthem), there is nothing better for getting to think it's stupid than making them say it every day.

[cbayer]

18. But should saying it be a part of the curriculum?

That seems to be the bottom line here.

If there had been a class while you were in HS that required that it be said in it's entirety in order to participate, what would you have done?

Before I make a judgement about the alternative, I would like to know what it entailed.

I'm not so sure this is petty nor do I think your position in high school was petty.

[struggle4progress]

27. I don't know exactly what the assignment or the alternative was. But if the students affected

were offered the alternative in advance, then I don't see much prospect for a winning fight here

[AtheistCrusader]

21. We could do with more 'petty adolescent rebellion' in this world.

Good thing it's not my kids, I'd have some sharp words for you, for saying that.

[struggle4progress]

25. For saying what? For saying "I think the Pledge is a silly waste of time and the addition

'under God' is self-righteous nonsense"? For saying "When I was in high school during the Vietnam war I wouldn't recite the pledge or even stand when it was recited, and somebody or other was always threatening discipline for that: I stared them in the eye and tell them I didn't believe in saluting a piece of cloth"?

[AtheistCrusader]

28. I already identified the relevant part of your post.

[struggle4progress]

29. I paid my petty adolescent rebellion dues in full years ago. It's a stage many people go through.

What I do nowadays doesn't give me the same adrenaline kick and doesn't excite my self-righteousness as much and doesn't provide the same self-indulgent feelings of self-pity but might be a bit more effective

[cbayer]

4. While I think the school is wrong, there is one part of this story that disturbs me.

Baker offered an alternative assignment to the students ahead of time and neither accepted

If you are asked to do something that you object to and then are offered an alternative that you do not object to, what exactly is the point of refusing that alternative.

It would be like someone in court who didn't wanted to swear on a bible being offered a telephone book and refusing it, right?

[rug]

5. In court, some affirmation, be it on a book or not, is required.

The purpose there is to ensure the witness can be prosecuted for perjury if the truth is not told.

I'd like to know more details about what happened in this school but its heavy-handed reaction rubs me the wrong way. The "alternative" defense may be simple ass-covering. I'd like to question them about it.

[cbayer]

6. I think there is an epic struggle going on between a teacher

who insists that everyone say it and a group of students who are actively challenging it.

I'm rooting for the students, but would like to know about the offered alternative.

Will look for a more comprehensive article and get back if I find one.

[FLyellowdog]

7. Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to say the Pledge

and aren't required to participate in an alternate activity.

I wonder why xtians don't refuse as well. After all, it IS pledging to a flag (i.e. "other god&quot ...even though the pledge says "under god", isn't it still putting the flag before god?

[cbayer]

8. Interesting. I suspect they would be required to say it in this class, though.

The point they are trying to make is that it isn't just saying the pledge, it's about fulfilling one of the requirements of a public speaking course.

As to putting a flag before god, I have no idea.

[Goblinmonger]

10. So atheists can't lead the pledge?

That's what they were told. And it wasn't just about not being able to lead the Pledge, their grade was lowered as a result. That's crappy.

[cbayer]

11. I totally agree with you.

It's wrong and I hope that the teacher will eventually lose this fight.

[Goblinmonger]

12. Awesome.

I was hoping I misunderstood you.

I don't think the "alternative assignment" changes anything about this. It seems like, in that school, that leading the Pledge and reading announcements is a somewhat big thing, and saying you can't just because you don't want to say "under God" is making atheists second class citizens in this school.

I have had to have discussions with teachers in my school because they want students to explain why they want to sit, or to not say "under God," or some other version of not standing and doing everything. And we aren't in the middle of the Bible Belt or anything so I can only imagine.

[cbayer]

13. I think I was unclear.

I truly am curious about what the alternative was and why the students rejected it, but I think this teacher is completely out of line, imo. I'm glad the students are standing up.

I'm glad that you champion students in your school that take this position. Indeed, it must be very difficult in places where the kid may have no support either from teachers or peers.

[Goblinmonger]

15. I'm glad the students are standing up, too.

There is nothing I like more than seeing a young adult learning the very difficult skill of self advocacy. I had a high school student stop by the house trying to get me to vote for Gov Walker. After it was clear that was why she was there, I said, "There is no chance in the world I'm voting for Walker but good for you for getting involved in the political process." I then asked if she needed something to drink and informed her that my neighborhood is populated with union folk (lots of teachers, firefighters, police) and that she may have a tough go of it but that she shouldn't ever stop.

I champion religious students being able to do what is constitutionally protected, too.

[cbayer]

16. Great response to her and kudos to her for getting involved.

I am sure you are a wonderful advocate for your atheist and theist students. Supporting them whether you agree or not is what is most important, imo.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. "Question authority."

I told my kid that, and he said 'Why?'.

I love my son.

[rug]

19. On the off chance you haven't seen this:

Wisconsin Statutes

118.06? Flag, pledge of allegiance, and national anthem.
(1)?Every school board and the governing body of every private school shall cause the U.S. flag to be displayed in the schoolroom or from a flagstaff on each school ground during the school hours of each school day.
(2)?Every public school shall offer the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem in grades one to 12 each school day. Every private school shall offer the pledge of allegiance or the national anthem in grades one to 12 each school day unless the governing body of the private school determines that the requirement conflicts with the school's religious doctrines. No pupil may be compelled, against the pupil's objections or those of the pupil's parents or guardian, to recite the pledge or to sing the anthem.
History: 1993 a. 492; 2001 a. 16.

It's good to have the law at your fingertips when these things come up in the heat of the moment.

None of my children have said the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom but the reasons are political not religious.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Principle is important. To some of us.

[kwassa]

24. Well, of course, he or she runs the school ...

Oh.

Principal.

Never mind.

[Kalidurga]

26. How much do you want to bet the teacher considers herself a patriot?

A true patriot would understand that no part of religion or forcing someone to deliver a speech with religious overtones belongs in a government institution.

[rug]

30. She's an ass who probably drinks a lot of tea with her patriotism.

Even aside from her politics, she's a lousy teacher. She's supposed to be teaching debate and she responds with this:

He didn’t find out that Baker had given him a poor grade for the assignment until his mother, Tammy Giardina, went online to look at her son’s grades two weeks later. Tammy Giardina immediately emailed Baker.

“He will not be allowed to do the bulletin unless he does the Pledge of Allegiance properly,” she said Baker wrote to her in response.

That's a persuasive argument. What a shithead.

[Kalidurga]

32. Properly would be the way it was originally written no?

They even admit that the words were changed in 1954? Meh they were changed that's the point and why is one version now more proper than the other.

I agree she probably does drink a lot of tea while being a lousy teacher.

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Oh the irony

That a symbol of liberty is held to be more important than actual liberty.

[cbayer]

33. Very well said.

[Hifi]

34. Contact DontSayThePledge.com

The student just needs to contact the AHA legal center at DontSayThePledge.com. They will put their legal team on it immediately this will be resolved quickly.

Schools have NEVER won any contest in court when it comes to the Pledge because it is a criminal civil rights violation!

[cbayer]

35. Thanks Hifi.

I hope they will pursue action.

Welcome to the DU religion group.

[rug]

36. Welcome to DU.

A compulsory Pledge is blatantly illegal and has been for decades. It's become a secular fetish, with or without those two words.