One problem I have with a belief in an afterlife. If someone believes there is an afterlife, and

[raccoon]

believes that it's going to be much better than their present life, this could lead some people who are contemplating suicide to think they are going to end up in a better place, united with loved ones who have gone on before. What if it turns out there is no afterlife?

I have a relative who died recently under questionable circumstances. She kind of said things sometimes that implied she didn't believe in an afterlife. OTOH, she said she wanted to be reunited with her grandmother.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. I don't get why this is a problem.

I suppose you are starting from the assumption that suicide is wrong. I don't share that assumption. Plenty of people who aren't believers commit suicide, by the way.

[raccoon]

79. I don't personally feel that suicide is "wrong" all the time. But I'm saying that a belief in an

afterlife might give some people false hope that their existence in the Afterlife would be wonderful and
they'd be out of all pain, physical or emotional, happier than in this life....and then it might turn out to be nothing.

[GreatGazoo]

2. Some of that depends on one's conception of afterlife

Not sure that it would influence a suicidal person one way or the other because I see suicide as mostly an escape from this life and not as an entry to the next one. The only sure thing there is that it ends this life.

The matter that makes p our bodies is constantly changing; exchanging with the world around us. The overwhelming majority of organic matter in each of our bodies does not have our DNA in it. So parts of "us" will be around forever. Our soul, or life force or anima, is a whole other question. I don't think the question is so much "is there an afterlife" but rather "what is the experience of the afterlife."

We are already "reunited with grandma"...

[whathehell]

3. That may be one of the reasons

why, for most of its history, the Catholic Church held that suicide was a mortal sin

with those committing it going to Hell They wouldn't bury a suicide in 'consecrated

ground' e.g, church cemeteries.

I guess it worked pretty well, because, for decades in the US, Catholics had

the LOWEST suicide rate of any of the "big three" -- Protestants, Jews, Catholics.

They've since softened their position, acknowledging that most suicides are the

product of deep depression, mental illness.

[SheilaT]

27. I am not so certain that Catholics actually had a lower suicide

rate that Protestants or Jews. There was just a much more vigorous cover-up.

I can think of more than one person who was Catholic, who committed suicide, but for whom the official story was something else entirely.

[cbayer]

33. I'm not sure how suicide rates could be covered-up.

That's a determination generally made the medical examiner.

However, this article, which is 10 years old, found no difference between Catholics and Protestants.

[exboyfil]

101. I know of two "accidental" deaths

that may have been suicides. In one case the husband had an affair, was kicked out of the house, and died from CO2 poisoning while living in a tent. He was very depressed about the whole situation. You can never be certain what was in a person's heart, and I was not that close but it was the rumor in the small town we lived.

The other involved a husband and father whose family (himself, parents, brothers, etc) was under investigation for fraud. He was reported to have had a hunting accident while walking in the woods (tripped and shot himself).

My circle of friends is pretty small. This happened in two different communities to families who attended Bible studies with me and my wife. Both sad with fathers leaving a young family behind. I can't say it was suicide - don't want it to be suicide, and it is better for both families that it is not ruled suicide.

[cbayer]

103. Agree that sometimes it is not clear.

And medical examiners are likely to rule something accidental if it is not clear. But that is true across the board, imo, not just with catholics.

I was questioning the idea of some kind of systematic cover up by the church. Unless the ME or coroner is in on the coverup, it would be difficult to pull that off.

Coping with the loss of someone you love is very hard, but coping with that loss from suicide is much harder, I agree.

[whathehell]

34. Of course you're not..

I hesitated to write the catholics and suicide post knowing SOMEONE would have a

problem with anything about the influence of the Catholic Church that could be construed

as being in any way positive.

You know "more than one" Catholic who committed suicide -- great -- I knew one too,

but we're talking NUMBERS and percentages here, aren't we?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(book)

https://ideas.repec.org/p/cra/wpaper/2012-12.html

[cbayer]

35. Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see the data you mention in this link.

The only one I could find was from a 10 year old AJP article that found no difference between catholics and protestants.

[whathehell]

36. I gave two links, but here's a third and it's from 2014..

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/264240339_Suicide_and_Religion_New_Evidence_on_the_Differences_Between_Protestantism_and_Catholicism

[cbayer]

46. This study looks pretty good, but it is confined to Switzerland.

I'm not sure if that's important, but it may be. Switzerland is a quite different than the US in some significant ways that might make a difference.

To be fair, you added the 2nd link in the post above in an edit that you were probably doing a I was responding.

At any rate, the second link there is the same Switzerland study you cite here.

I think the bottom line is that there probably is no definitive data about differences between religious groups.

However, there does seem to be data that supports a decrease in suicide rates is positively correlated with religiosity. I haven't looked closely at this so I'm not advocating it, but that is what some of the other studies (like the AJP one) show.

[whathehell]

72. This one's not..

This is the fourth and last link I'm giving you; you can do your own

own research beyond this if you want, but I doubt you'll find different conclusions.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that so many are challenging the idea, but I can assure

you it doesn't come from a biased source -- I'm not a practicing Catholic and

my last link, "The Christian post" is most decidedly NOT a Catholic publication,

as you can see by looking at it for a minute or two.

The original information was given to me by a non-sectarian behaviorist years ago.

[cbayer]

73. I did do my own research.

The most valid article I could find showed no difference.

I think you forgot your link, but I would be glad to look at it.

[whathehell]

77. That's nice..

"The most valid article I could find showed no difference".

You don't mention what criteria you used to determine what makes

it "most valid", but whatever.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/suicide-more-likely-with-protestants-than-catholics-72128/

[cbayer]

78. All you have to do is ask.

It was published in the primary journal of psychiatry. It is from a highly respected medical institution. It was thoroughly peer reviewed. I read the sections on their methods and statistical analysis and I found it well done. Based on all of this, I felt like it was the most valid article I looked at.

But, rather hilariously, I forgot to include the link, which would lead me to wonder whether you were able to look at it.

Here is the link:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.12.2303

The link you provide here talks about a study but doesn't really give any hard data or anything about methodology. The paper itself was never published, as far as I can tell. It is primarily about suicide rates in Prussia in the 1800"s with some theoretical discussion of why there were differences at that time.

Look, I'm not trying to knock you down here. You made a statement for which there really isn't any good data. You may be right, but without data you could just end up with egg on your face.

[Jim__]

95. Your cited study should put some of the OP's concerns to rest.

Subjects with no religious affiliation were more often lifetime suicide attempters, reported more suicidal ideation, and were more likely to have first-degree relatives who had committed suicide than religiously affiliated subjects.

My guess is that belief in an afterlife is highly correlated with religious affiliation, and no religious affiliation is more highly correlated with suicide attempts.

[cbayer]

98. The data in this particular study would support your guess.

[Android3.14]

105. "lifetime suicide attempters"?

What a strange term.

[SheilaT]

43. I'm simply pointing out that

since the Catholic Church is so totally against suicide for any reason whatsoever, there is a huge motivation to make a suicide look like something else.

Islam has the same problem, the notion that no Muslim would ever commit suicide. So when the captain of EgyptAir 990 who probably did commit suicide and take down the entire plane with him, it was vehemently denied that he'd done so intentionally.

Yes, I understand that anecdotes are not data. But in a similar vein, Catholics have tended to have abortions at the same rate as non-Catholics, or fundamentalists actually have higher divorce rates than non-fundies.

And my point about the Catholics I've known who committed suicide is that the cover-up of what happened was more firmly in place than in some other cases I've also known.

If the Catholic Church's influence means suicides are covered up, you may think that's positive. I don't. Just a difference of opinion here.

[whathehell]

84. As I believe I mentioned, the Catholic church has softened its stand on suicide, so

I have no idea where you are getting it being "so against it for any reason whatsoever".

I'm also puzzled by your "cover up" theory -- Do you have any data to back

it up, or is this a "guess" on your part?

I strongly suspect the latter, as I grew up in a Catholic community, attended

twelve years of Catholic School and never once heard of such a thing.

No need for Muslim imaginings and comparisons, either, as no Christian church I know

of favors suicide and, as I noted earlier, the RC has softened it's stance

regarding it.

At present, it is not looked upon as a serious sin and there are no ecclesiastical

pernalties adhering to it.

[SheilaT]

85. I knew people who committed suicide, but the official story

was a car accident. Another was a hunting accident. It was widely understood that the people in question had committed suicide, but the hypocrisy of pretending otherwise was necessary because of the Catholicism.

Granted, these stories go back to the 1960's and '70's, and perhaps things have opened up vastly more than I realize, since I long ago stopped associating with the Catholic Church.

Glad to know they don't seem to consider suicide a serious sin anymore.

[whathehell]

86. You might want to consider that your experiences were not universal

and that whatever "hypocrisy" was or was not going on, had as much

to do with your particular community than with the Catholic church, generally.

I remember no such "necessities", and when I went to my High School reunion

a few years ago, someone in my graduating class was mentioned as committing

suicide, flat out, no "cover up" attempted.

Yes, things HAVE opened up a lot since the sixties and seventies -- I'm not a

practicing catholic, but I've still got an "ear to the ground" so to speak, when

it comes to what's going on in the church.

[SheilaT]

88. I can only tell you that growing up Catholic

in the 1950's and '60's there was an incredible taboo about suicide. Things have changed enormously since then, and a few years ago -- as in your reference to a high school reunion is not the same as fifty or more years ago. Even if the suicide you're referring to took place that long ago, by now people have opened up a lot, even about those earlier events.

The "cover up" I observed was one of pretending things had played out differently, or with a very different meaning, than the way they actually had.

Suicide has always been out there. But if it is in some way forbidden, either by the culture or by other aspects (such as religions) of that culture, then there will be a lot of covering up of what actually happens. Which is exactly what I observed more than once fifty plus years ago.

[whathehell]

89. I grew up Catholic in the same time period

I graduated Catholic High School in 1967, and, no, there were no "cover ups"

to my knowledge, of any suicides. Suicide may have always "been out there",

but not necessarily in the same numbers and/or in the same populations.

In addition, you can't necessarily generalize from YOUR particular experience.

[SheilaT]

90. Interesting difference between our two experiences.

[whathehell]

96. Yes.

[djean111]

4. I had a Near Death experience (keep yer Woo! derision to yerself, anyone who is inclined to

jeer - your opinion is, actually, irrelevant - and I was welcomed, but told that it was not really my time and I had to (very reluctantly) go back, because there were things I needed to do for others. This is a common NDE experience, I believe, and may explain why NDEers who do believe in a next state of being do not all just go and commit suicide in order to go back there.

In any event, NO ONE knows anything for sure. No one.

[newfie11]

5. +++++infinity nt

[Alittleliberal]

6. I guess the point isn't whether or not people have NDE's

It's what do they actually mean. There's a pretty strong case for all NDE's being a rush of DMT to the brain as it turn offs.

[djean111]

7. Irrelevant to the matter at hand - just pointing out that some people who believe in some

sort of afterlife do not consider suicide in order to get there.
Never did understand the need by some to "explain" NDEs, really. Seems odd. Sort of Thought Police, really. But, again, irrelevant.
Then again, I am an atheist who doesn't care in the least what theists believe - as long as their beliefs don't affect me in a negative way.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. An actual NDE with some of the attributes you described has significant implications for

multiple issues. It's a single Boolean true/false proposition that would validate or disprove many assumptions different people make about the universe. If you claim that an NDE was real, that you experienced... something from 'beyond' making a decision, or welcoming you, or telling you it's 'not your time', that's going to be held to a very high level of scrutiny.

I don't think it's surprising that you might encounter resistance for claiming it. Especially if you're going to also claim 'no one knows anything for sure'. Kind of an unqualified absolute. I know you can't prove to me that your apprehension of a NDE was accurate, and reflected the true nature of the event, to me or any other interested third party.

[djean111]

9. Where I am coming from - I have no need to convince anyone else about my NDE. :-)

I was merely observing that a belief that an NDE occurred, with the accompanying belief that there is some sort of afterlife, does not seem to lead to suicide in the quest to get to that afterlife more quickly.
And, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, any scrutiny is pointless TO ME. I understand about the ramifications, really, I do. But - as unknowable and unverifiable as any sort of religious heaven.
So, my feelings do not get hurt or whatever, I just find some pile-ons by those who don't believe kind of rude. In some cases. I am not trying to convince anyone, believe me on that!

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Some people will interpret what you are offering as a comment, as a challenge.

'This happened to me, and you must accept that on face value' or something similar to that.


I tend to, but I am suppressing it, because that is clearly not your intent.
I'm not generally capable of accepting ANY claim without scrutiny, but with some deliberate effort I can temporarily suspend disbelief.

[djean111]

38. Actually, I am not asking that ANYONE believe me, I am just saying that those who

do believe that they had an NDE do not seem inclined to commit suicide.
Peace!

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Where can I find more data on that?

That's an interesting comment.
Somewhere around 15% of attempted suicides, attempt or complete a second try. I'm not aware of any studies that correlate reports of NDE by an initial attempt, and the rate of subsequent attempts.

[stone space]

48. Why would anybody take it as a challenge?

Some people will interpret what you are offering as a comment, as a challenge.

I didn't take it that way.

I took it as a personal anecdote.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. It's a claim that some condition, some thing exists.

Some of us automatically, by our nature, require validation of such a claim.
As I explained, if true, the claim has profound implications beyond the personal experience of that individual.

[stone space]

60. I guess that I don't find folks relating...

...their own personal experiences as particularly challenging.

Some of us automatically, by our nature, require validation of such a claim.

Oh, so it's just a personality quirk of yours.

OK, that's cool, but you are bound to find yourself disappointed at times, I suppose, since folks who relate their own personal experiences aren't always interested in providing the sorts of "validation" required by the personality quirks of others.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. Oh, I live in a constant state of dissapointment.

And of course, I do not necessarily *require* them to validate it, but I will ask them to, and if they cannot, I expect them to accept my dismissal of their claim.

If they can't accept that, then we aren't playing on a level field.

[stone space]

64. I've already ingested two pots of coffee this morning.

You are free to believe or disbelieve me, but I don't intend that as a challenge.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. Entirely possible, depending on the size of your coffee pot.

Not an extraordinary claim. No validation required.

Claims of interaction with some intelligence during a NDE, is an extraordinary claim.

[stone space]

67. You should see some of the claims that I make...

...regarding eating hot chili peppers.

You would be right to be quite skeptical, since my claims in that regard, while true (I claim!), are considered by many as being quite extraordinary.

[AtheistCrusader]

68. Indeed.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. Wait, you are an atheist who believes in an afterlife?

Seriously? How does that work?

[djean111]

42. No Jesus, no crowd of virgins, no streets of gold, no religious trappings, no trappings at all.

Just my harmless little view of things.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. where exactly is this place?

[djean111]

49. Behind Jupiter and a little to the left.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. got it.

So this isn't actually a serious belief of yours or you don't wish to actually discuss it.

[djean111]

57. Oh, it is a serious belief.

But - the other week a "serious" post of mine was copied into another thread in the atheist group and made fun of, so this place, for me, is not a place to have a "serious discussion".
It's all good! :-O

[Warren Stupidity]

58. Oh those darned atheists. Really something should be done about them.

[djean111]

59. Oh, I just pretty much avoid discussions with other atheists. No big deal.

I did provide some entertainment, though, so there's that good thing!
And now I have provided more, methinks.
Over and out.

[stone space]

66. Well, to be fair, that group does not represent...

... the majority of us atheists, and their behavior is not all that common in real life.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. yes you have made your majority of atheists opinions very clear.

[AtheistCrusader]

81. Source for that claim?

Personally, I only claim to represent myself, but you just made an interesting assertion there. Source?

[stone space]

82. Have you seen any atheists act like that in real life?

I haven't.

[AtheistCrusader]

83. I assure you, I am alive.

(Not entirely clear what you mean by 'act like' though.)

[trotsky]

14. Why do you declare that no one is allowed to comment critically on your post?

You realize that this is a public discussion board, and that everyone is allowed to express their opinion, right?

[1monster]

19. Why would you need to respond critically on his/her post? This was his/her

Experience and reported as such. His/her post was cited as a personal background explanation for his/ her point of view. And the poster made it very clear thathe/she was not offering the subject of NDEs for debate.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Well perhaps because the poster demanded that nobody do that.

Sort of an odd demand on a discussion board.

[rug]

23. Actualy the poster did no such thing. S/he said it would be irrelevant.

trotsky's post demonstrates that was correct. As does yours.

[whathehell]

37. Thank you.

[PumpkinAle]

106. Lucky you - you belong to a very special group

and totally agree.

[Cartoonist]

10. My problem with with a belief in an afterlife

I don't believe in life after death, so I won't be able to say, "I told you so!" to all the theists I've ever met.

[rug]

11. Maybe you'll just have to settle for hearing it.

[whathehell]

39. Yes..

[cbayer]

17. But will you be ready to say sorry if you are wrong?

[Rainforestgoddess]

44. I told my cousin I would buy margaritas

If he's right. It's a bad bet because I get nothing if I win. :-D

[cbayer]

47. Lol! Like pretty much the rest of my life, I'm not betting on anything.

But I will take one of those margaritas if your cousin is right.

[Rainforestgoddess]

52. I will have to have a booth :) nt

[cbayer]

63. I will help you. I make a mean margarita and have the best lime squeezer ever.

Sin sal for me, please.

[okasha]

107. Estilo Cadillac, por favor.

[Rainforestgoddess]

108. This bet is getting tricky.

First I'm buying my cousin a tasty beverage, now I'm a bartender. Ack!

[okasha]

109. Yep.

Better get that license.

[stone space]

53. Tell your cousin to buy you a margarita now.

It's a bad bet because I get nothing if I win. :-D

And agree to buying your cousin 2 margaritas if you meet him or her in the afterlife.

[Rainforestgoddess]

54. He will probably want to deliver it

Through transcendental meditation. I think I'll just make myself one and call it a day.

[rug]

13. Both death itself, and a belief in the afterlife, underscore the uniqueness of a life.

Death alone will. But a belief in the afterlife without an appreciation for life, in all its beauty and ugliness, won't.

[JayhawkSD]

15. I had a sister who was a noisy and ardent believer in a Christian afterlife.

When she was in the last stages of breast cancer she was absolutely terrified of dying. I never quite understood that. She talked about going to heaven and joining the "company of angels" and was at the same time utterly unwilling to do it, indulging in all sorts of horrible treatments to prolong life. She would be told by doctors that a treatment would give her only a few weeks of life and that it would not be quality life, it would be painful and sickening, and she would tell them to do the treatment. She refused to sign a living will and instructed that artificial means were to be used to keep her alive as long as could be done.

The whole thing was just awful for her kids, but there was nothing any of us could do. All this from a woman who professed for as long as she was able to speak that she was on her way to "join Jesus."

[rug]

18. Thomas à Kempis wrote "The Imitation of Christ", one of the most popular books of the Middle Ages.

It's a book of great piety and devotion to the mercy and love of God. Yet he is not a canonized saint.

He was mistakenly buried while still alive. When his body was disinterred for examination (an incorrupt corpse is sometimes considered a sign of sainthood), scratch marks were found inside the coffin. The authorities investigating his cause concluded that he awoke in his grave and may have committed the sin of despair.

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/gruesome/buried.asp

No one knows how he or she will deal with death when it comes.

[Frustratedlady]

29. I recently had a customer whose father was dying...

She told me he sat at the dining room table and forced himself to stay awake. I asked her why he was doing this. She said that he was afraid to go to sleep as he believed he would be met by the devil as payback for how mean he had been to her mother all those years.

He finally died in spite of himself. I always wondered...

[SheilaT]

30. I have long found it puzzling that

the Christians who most believe in their afterlife are the most reluctant to go to it. They are the ones that think life should be prolonged, regardless of pain, suffering, or cost, well beyond what most rational folks would. I don't get it.

I happen to believe in an afterlife, just not the Christian version, and while I hope this one lasts quite a bit longer, I won't want to hang around only because advanced medical science can keep me here. My take on things is that the afterlife is just the next stage.

[cbayer]

31. There is really no data that I am aware of to substantiate this.

I have been with many dying people. Their religious beliefs sometimes eased their way. For others, it was their atheism.

Most people don't want to die and many are afraid. I don't think there is any correlation with their religiosity, but if you have data, I would appreciate seeing it.

One never knows how they will actually feel when they are closing in on that door.

[SheilaT]

93. Idon't have data, I doubt anyone really has.

But I have noticed, anecdotally, that the ones who fight hardest against death are the ones who seem to claim a belief in a standard Christian hereafter. Which isn't to say that others don't also resist dying, but it does seem as though those who most oppose assisted suicide, and who most insist on doing everything possible to prolong life, are those who also claim to believe in Heaven.

I happen to have my own beliefs about what comes after this life. While I am not at all eager to go there, I also have a very strong sense that the next life is a good one, that I'll get to in all good time.

[cbayer]

97. And I have noticed something entirely different, so we may just cancel

each other out.

I think it is a mistake to reach generalized conclusions about group of people based on anecdotal evidence.

Each individual approaches death differently. Until there is some evidence that there is some correlation between religious beliefs and a certain kind of approach, I think it's best not to draw and conclusions.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. The thing that bothers me about the idea of an afterlife, is all the baggage that comes along with.

Like rules, for your behavior now, that can't be verified or proven, about how to access various claims of wondrous things in said afterlife.

It all sounds a tad too convenient, and too much like a simple way to get control of simple people.

[SheilaT]

94. I don't see it as a set of rules for how to behave.

I see it as a continuation.

I honestly feel no need to persuade anyone that what I happen to believe is what everyone should buy into. If you have beliefs that work for you, then great. You don't need any input from me.

[AtheistCrusader]

99. Most organized religions do.

Honestly, I find individuals, in an unaffiliated, personal sort of way, holding an afterlife to be real a lot less bothersome than organized religions. There may be more, but I can only think of two organized religions that do not have some sort o instruction manual for how to live in order to access that claimed afterlife.

If that's how you operate, I'm guessing that even though I'm a very strong atheist, you and I could live next door to each other, and never once clash over religion, ever.

[SheilaT]

100. While I am not an atheist myself,

I have very little use for most organized religions, and we could no doubt easily live next door and never clash on the topic. We might actually have a good conversation or two eventually, where we each explained why we hold the beliefs (I'm going ahead and arbitrarily calling atheism a belief system, please forgive me for that) we do.

On my side, while I actually have pretty firm ideas about why we're here and how there's an afterlife, I have no need to convince others that they need to believe the same. I DON'T smugly think I'm right, every one else is wrong, and oh gosh will they ever be sorry! Nothing like that. I just believe what I do, and so long as no one else is trying to force me to believe otherwise, I'm fine.

[cbayer]

16. I think this is one of the reasons that many religions have prohibitions

against suicide. They also sometimes say that the more you suffer, the better the payoff at the end, so there is incentive to stay alive.

Since no one knows for sure, it's all speculative anyway.

Sorry for your loss.

[truebrit71]

22. No, I think that is merely an extension of the overall con game...

...

And ANY religion that said that the more pain and suffering you go throw has a direct correlation to the "payoff at the end" is a religion I would want no part of...

[cbayer]

24. You think it's a con game. Don't get involved.

Others see it entirely differently and it is a major positive force in their life.

You don't want to be a part of it and nobody is going to make you. Just leave everyone else alone unless they are causing harm.

[truebrit71]

25. Oh, believe me, i'm not involved in the con anymore...

...and I used to be a fervent, fervent believer. But the con just became so obvious over time.

But again, the concept that the greater the pain, the greater the reward isn't positive, it's downright sadistic.

The argument could be made, indeed it HAS been made, that religion has caused a great deal of harm over the course of history. A great deal of harm to many, many people.

[cbayer]

26. That's cool. Everyone finds their own path.

I think the concept of pain paying off has served a purpose for those who find themselves in unspeakable horrific circumstances, something that probably neither you nor I can even imagine.

If everything in your life is so horrible that it is almost unbearable, believing that there will be a reward could actually provide solace, a balm when there is nothing else.

There is no question that religion has caused a great deal of harm. There is also no question that it has done a great deal of good, imo. I don't think it should be either eliminated or held up above criticism based on either of those things.

[trotsky]

32. And yet others see it differently and it is a major negative force in their life.

Or in the lives of others. "Causing harm" is just your personal opinion - not everyone defines harm like you do, and *GASP* some people base it on their religious beliefs.

If only you could realize it's not as black-and-white as you think.

[Cartoonist]

28. The best detailed account of the afterlife

was written by Mark Twain. Captain Stormfield's Visit To Heaven is a hilarious send up of what people belive will happen to them once they get to heaven.

[whathehell]

41. Except that his was a work of fiction...

NDEs weren't quite as common in Twain's time.

[Warren Stupidity]

51. what do you think NDEs are evidence of?

[whathehell]

69. Experience.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. yes they are evidence of an experience

or at least the recollection of having had such an experience. You seem to be avoiding making any other claim.

[still_one]

55. Depending on which religion you subscribe to, a suicide would be considered a mortal sin

[Warpy]

61. Death, even voluntary death, looks scary to people who are young and/or healthy

What we know about what happens after death is zero, except that the brain remains intensely active for some minutes- ten to half an hour-as the cells die. Since people who have begun the process and have been brought back have mostly described it as a joyful one, perhaps what happens is that we ease out of this life on a tide of endorphins and enkephalins that are no longer needed to cope with the usual aches and pains of living under gravity.

It should be no wonder that people who are living in unrelieved physical or psychic pain want it to stop, even if they stop with it. Others who still feel well enough but are looking at a grisly death from some terrible disease might also want to end things before they get too hard. The young and healthy can't understand this, they're not supposed to, but it does happen and should be treated with compassion, not condemnation.

I'm a retired nurse and I've seen a lot of death. The people who fear death the most and seem to have the roughest time with it are the highly religious, especially those who fear a judgmental, capricious and spiteful god, usually the type of person they were in life.

Other people don't know what happens, but meet it peacefully, knowing the pain will stop as soon as their bodies die, whether or not some part of them lives on.

Some cultures have ritualized suicide when life becomes unbearable. Others, like ours, treat it with total condemnation and would imprison the dead if we could. The best way might be between these two extremes.

[Cleita]

70. Frankly, when my husband died and other love ones who went before him,

I have had a very hard time wrapping my head around the fact that I was never going to see, talk to them or hug them again. It seems too cruel to think you have been severed from their presence forever. I think that is where some of this belief comes from.

I also think that sometimes suicides are so despondent that they just want their pain to end and if that means oblivion, it's acceptable to them. Am I making sense?

[cbayer]

71. I think you make a lot of sense.

I think the belief that it's not completely over can provide a lot of solace for grieving survivors. And since we don't know, why take that away from anyone.

Suicide is almost always a getting away from not a going to, with some notable exceptions. People who have not had depression or been in unbearable pain can't really understand the desperation expressed by suicide.

[rug]

76. A lot of sense.

I think it has a lot to do with consciousness of self and others.

Very few animals have even the semblance of grieving or the loss of another of its kind. Elephants come to mind but those are rare exceptions. Most animals just take a sniff and move on.

Self-consciousness and a sense of loss are one of the prominent attributes of humans. Sometimes I wonder if awarenesss is what's meant by "made in the image of God".

[raccoon]

80. Yes. nt

[hrmjustin]

87. Well to answer your questions if there is no afterlife then you are just gone and that is it.

And yes there have been those who have taken their lives wanting to meet God early. This is no reaeon not to believe but it is a possibility.


My view of the afterlife is complete love and peace. I don't believe in hell and I believe that most or all of us get to heaven in the end.

[Prophet 451]

102. That's why most religions forbid suicide

That kind of temptation to skip teh queue (so to speak) is why most religions forbid suicide. My own faith regards suicide as usually the result of an illness (mental or physical).

[cbayer]

104. IMHO, suicide is always the result of an illness.