Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 12:26 AM Nov 2014

Wake Up to the Smell of Class Struggle

Last edited Mon Nov 24, 2014, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Interesting site.

http://espressostalinist.com/genocide/native-american-genocide/

The Europeans saw themselves as the superior culture bringing civilization to an inferior culture. The colonial world view split reality into popular parts: good and evil, body and spirit, man and nature, head and hear, European and primitive. American Indians spirituality lacks these dualism’s; language expresses the oneness of all things. God is not the transcendent Father but the Mother Earth, the Corn Mother, the Great Spirit who nourishes all It is polytheistic, believing in many gods and many levels of deity. “At the basis of most American Native beliefs is the supernatural was a profound conviction that an invisible force, a powerful spirit, permeated the entire universe and ordered the cycles of birth and death for all living things.” Beyond this belief in a universal spirit, most American Indians attached supernatural qualities to animals, heavenly bodies, the seasons, dead ancestors, the elements, and geologic formations. Their world was infused with the divine – The Sacred Hoop. This was not at all a personal being presiding ominpotently over the salvation or damnation of individual people as the Europeans believed.

For the Europeans such beliefs were pagan. Thus, the conquest was rationalized as a necessary evil that would bestow upon the heathen “Indians” a moral consciousness that would redeem their amorality. The world view which converted bare economic self interest into noble, even moral, motives was a notion of Christianity as the one redemptive religion which demands fealty from all cultures. In this remaking of the American Indians the impetus which drove the conquistador’s invading wars not exploration, but the drive to expand an empire, not discovery of new land, but the drive to accumulate treasure, land and cheap labor.

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Wake Up to the Smell of Class Struggle (Original Post) Cartoonist Nov 2014 OP
Too bad you don't have the faintest idea okasha Nov 2014 #1
I see a connection Cartoonist Nov 2014 #6
You see one but not the other Cartoonist Nov 2014 #10
Gold had nothing to do with it. rug Nov 2014 #17
Neither did colonialism. cbayer Nov 2014 #18
Or cane sugar. rug Nov 2014 #19
What?? You didn't learn about Enver Hoxha? cbayer Nov 2014 #20
Hey, Albania was on a map of the Balkans okasha Nov 2014 #21
Well, there you go. If Angelina Jolie went to Albania in a movie, then cbayer Nov 2014 #23
Again, interesting historically Prophet 451 Nov 2014 #2
Some aren't Cartoonist Nov 2014 #4
Why do you think they are wrong edhopper Nov 2014 #3
Just the results of my research Cartoonist Nov 2014 #5
You will begin to be educated okasha Nov 2014 #9
The silence is deafening TexasProgresive Nov 2014 #11
I have come to a realization Cartoonist Nov 2014 #14
Okay edhopper Nov 2014 #13
The article Cartoonist Nov 2014 #15
Awesome website. SamKnause Nov 2014 #7
You're welcome Cartoonist Nov 2014 #8
The Expresso Stalinist cbayer Nov 2014 #12
I've waited to reply to this because I want to be absolutely clear okasha Nov 2014 #16
I have not denied that Christianity "played a role" in Native genocide. Cartoonist Nov 2014 #22
Apologist/apologia - I don't think those words mean what you think they mean. cbayer Nov 2014 #25
What do you think of the Christian missonaries that attemped to help repair Leontius Nov 2014 #24
Too little, too late Cartoonist Nov 2014 #26
Some of each. okasha Nov 2014 #27
While in grade school, I lived in one of the thirteen original colonies. cbayer Nov 2014 #28
That seems entirely right to me. okasha Nov 2014 #29
This message was self-deleted by its author okasha Nov 2014 #30
Let's listen to some Buffy Sainte-Marie struggle4progress Nov 2014 #31
A few lines of her's Cartoonist Nov 2014 #39
"Blame the angels. Blame the fates. Blame the Jews or your sister Kate. Teach your children struggle4progress Nov 2014 #40
Let's read some Marx: struggle4progress Nov 2014 #32
Let's listen to some more music struggle4progress Nov 2014 #33
Let's listen to St Basil to see what he's saying struggle4progress Nov 2014 #34
We might take a moment to remember John Ball struggle4progress Nov 2014 #35
Perhaps we could spend a moment with St James struggle4progress Nov 2014 #36
Or perhaps we could read the peasant's demands, as reported by Engels in The Peasants War in Germany struggle4progress Nov 2014 #37
Let's listen to Woody a bit struggle4progress Nov 2014 #38

okasha

(11,573 posts)
1. Too bad you don't have the faintest idea
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 12:45 AM
Nov 2014

what these commies are talking about.

Re-read the last two sentences till you get it

Or not.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
10. You see one but not the other
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 03:58 AM
Nov 2014

Thus, the conquest was rationalized as a necessary evil that would bestow upon the heathen “Indians” a moral consciousness that would redeem their amorality.
-
I acknowledge the land grab. Why do you fail to see the religious connection? The last two sentences are just two sentences from the whole site. It sounds like you are cherry picking the content and ignoring the rest. The land grab was easy, because Jesus made it so.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
19. Or cane sugar.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 07:43 PM
Nov 2014

Why didn't they teach us this in school?

And why the hell didn't we learn about Enver Hoxha?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. What?? You didn't learn about Enver Hoxha?
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 07:51 PM
Nov 2014

What kind of school was that?

You need to request a refund.


okasha

(11,573 posts)
21. Hey, Albania was on a map of the Balkans
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 07:55 PM
Nov 2014

we did in sixth grade.

And I know that Angelina Jolie did an Albanian accent in Alexander.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
23. Well, there you go. If Angelina Jolie went to Albania in a movie, then
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:01 PM
Nov 2014

the genocide of north america's indigenous peoples was entirely due to religion.

I dare you to disagree with that statement. Being only in kindergarten, I know you do not have the needed cognitive and reasoning skills to broach any kind of challenge.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
2. Again, interesting historically
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 12:50 AM
Nov 2014

Would you like to discuss the history? Because I think most well-read people are aware of the genocide of teh Native Americans.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
4. Some aren't
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 01:16 AM
Nov 2014

Or at least they don't think Christianity played a role in it.

If you have no interest in my posts, then ignore them. You aren't required to comment.

edhopper

(33,208 posts)
3. Why do you think they are wrong
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 12:58 AM
Nov 2014

The last graph looks like a sound assesment of the treatment of Native Americans.
Scholarly opinion, but a valid one.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
5. Just the results of my research
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 01:20 AM
Nov 2014

I am trying to educate myself. I agree with the contents. I included a sarcastic comment in response to an insult I recieved from someone who should know better but doesn't.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
9. You will begin to be educated
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 02:06 AM
Nov 2014

when you recognize your own cultural imperialism. You've got one bad case of White Man's Burden going there, Toons.

I suppose I should be astounded at the arrogance of some white guy trying to "educate" this poor dumb NDN about the history her family lived through. I've seen too much of it to be shocked any more, though.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
14. I have come to a realization
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 11:03 AM
Nov 2014

Okasha speaks for herself. I don't know why she absolves Christianity for what happened here in the new world. As she says, there is nothing I can teach her. There is nothing Vine Deloria, Jr. can teach her either.

When trying to understand the world, there are good teachers and bad. Should I listen to Martin Luther King, Jr., or Herman Cain and Ben Carson? Should I listen to okasha or Vine Deloria, Jr,? I think I'm going to go with Deloria on this one.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
15. The article
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 11:15 AM
Nov 2014

My point in posting this article was to corroborate a contention I have that Christianity bears some responsibility for the genocide that happened here in America. I have also posted two other articles, one of them by a Native American. Perhaps I should have included them all in one mega post. Excuse me for making things inconvenient.

I certainly would be interested in discussing the culpability of Christianity in genocide, as it is one of my arguments against religion as a whole. How do you feel about that? Am I all wet, or is there some validity to my contention? Obviously, there is endless debate over the question of God's existence, and it leads to lively debate. What confuses me, is the absolving of Christianity's role by a member of the people who were victims of this genocide.

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
8. You're welcome
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 01:40 AM
Nov 2014

I like the graphics. I was going to include them. I am glad you discovered them by visiting the site.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
12. The Expresso Stalinist
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 10:51 AM
Nov 2014

I am a working class, self-taught, unrepentant Marxist-Leninist; a writer turned activist and political scientist, lover of coffee. I uphold the non-revisionist line of Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin. My fields of study are Marxist criticism and political science.



Check out the US Imperialism page.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
16. I've waited to reply to this because I want to be absolutely clear
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 07:28 PM
Nov 2014

about my response.

I have not denied that Christianity "played a role" in Native genocide. That's your own invention. If you read your own posts, you with see that the authors cite religion not as a primary cause of the genocide but as a "rationalization" and "justification.". I.e., an attempt to make atrocity palatable.

The root causes of the American holocaust were economic and political--greed for land and resources, and the doctrine of manifest destiny. Imperialism, in a word. You characterize these causes as a "land grab" and brush them aside.
Wrong. Your facts and your reasoning are both deficient here.

I realize that you or one of your clique will probably alert on this. I don't care.

You decry the role of religion in the Native genocide, but you're just one more white missionary. Your attempt to force an alien paradigm onto Native history is pure cultural imperialism. Your stance is arrogant, ignorant , and deeply racist at its core.



Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
22. I have not denied that Christianity "played a role" in Native genocide.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 07:58 PM
Nov 2014

Thank you, that's all I wanted to hear. The rest of your post is BS. I get the same BS from Christian apologists all the time. You're no different.

I don't think anyone will alert on this. Its just religious apologia, and that's protected by religious privilege. Discussion over.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
25. Apologist/apologia - I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:04 PM
Nov 2014

I wish the discussion were over, but I suspect you will continue to kick this until it dies.

 

Leontius

(2,270 posts)
24. What do you think of the Christian missonaries that attemped to help repair
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:01 PM
Nov 2014

some of the damage done by the expansion of the US into tribal lands. Did they help or did they just do damage to native culture in another way?

okasha

(11,573 posts)
27. Some of each.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:22 PM
Nov 2014

Many of the early defenders of Native Americans were Christian, eg. de las Casas and Sahagun in Latin America; Roger Williams, William Penn and the Georgia Baptists in North America. In many places where the missionaries were sympathetic, Christianity and Native religion blended, and you see that continuing today.

Where the missionaries simply attempted to impose Christianity, there were abuses, such as the boarding schools. In other places--a Navaho friend tells me that quite an astonishing number of dogmatic priests and ministers perished in accidental falls while strollling along the mesa tops at night.....

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
28. While in grade school, I lived in one of the thirteen original colonies.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 08:43 PM
Nov 2014

We received an amazingly biased version of US history. I didn't know that at the time, only in retrospect.

When I moved to the SW, New Mexico, I was shocked to discover that there was an entirely separate history about that region.

I had learned that the US was settled in New England by the English and then spread westward until it was all completed.

I knew virtually nothing about the Spanish side of this whole story.

What was most remarkable to me was how the indigenous Mexicans so successfully pushed back against the white, catholic invading class.

The religious history of that region is fascinating, as you know.

The missionaries were certainly not kind to the indigenous people and the stories of what happened on the tops of those mesas are probably true. They were up there for a very good reason. They were scared out of their wits.

But the spanish and the indigenous and the gringo populations reached "understandings" that I haven't seen elsewhere in this country.

Do I have that right or is it wrong?

okasha

(11,573 posts)
29. That seems entirely right to me.
Mon Nov 24, 2014, 11:16 PM
Nov 2014

Because I went to Catholic girls' schools, I was introduced very early to both Spanish and French colonization in the Americas as well as the Puritans, Plymouth Rock, etc. It will no doubt seem strange to some reading this, but that's also where I learned that Cortez was a sadistic bastard and that Cuauhtemoc was a great hero. Same with Benito Juarez, the first indio to be elected President of Mexico, even though his government confiscated Church lands and imposed severe restrictions on clergy.

That same tendency to mesh cultures extends into areas that were once Spanish, then Mexican, lands. Perhaps it came about.because here the Anglos

Response to cbayer (Reply #28)

Cartoonist

(7,298 posts)
39. A few lines of her's
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 11:42 AM
Nov 2014

From Now That the Buffalo's Gone

But even when Germany fell to your hands
Consider dear lady, consider dear man
You left them their pride and you left them their land

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
40. "Blame the angels. Blame the fates. Blame the Jews or your sister Kate. Teach your children
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 03:45 PM
Nov 2014

how to hate; and the big wheels turn around and around"

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
32. Let's read some Marx:
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 05:52 AM
Nov 2014

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions"

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
34. Let's listen to St Basil to see what he's saying
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 06:02 AM
Nov 2014

“The bread that you withhold belongs to the hungry; the coat, that you keep locked in your storage-chest, belongs to the naked; the footwear rotting in your closet belongs to the barefoot. The silver that you keep hidden in a safe place belongs to everyone in need. However many there are whom you could have helped, that many you have wronged”

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
35. We might take a moment to remember John Ball
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 06:12 AM
Nov 2014

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
36. Perhaps we could spend a moment with St James
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 06:25 AM
Nov 2014
Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
37. Or perhaps we could read the peasant's demands, as reported by Engels in The Peasants War in Germany
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 06:37 AM
Nov 2014
(pdf link) ... First, it is our humble petition and desire, as also our will and resolution, that in the future we should have power and authority so that each community should choose and appoint a pastor, and that we should have the right to depose him should he conduct himself improperly ... It has been the custom hitherto for men to hold us as their own property, which is pitiable enough, considering that Christ has delivered and redeemed us all, without exception, by the shedding of His precious blood, the lowly as well as the great. Accordingly, it is consistent with Scripture that we should be free and wish to be so ... In the fourth place it has been the custom heretofore, that no poor man should be allowed to catch venison or wild fowl or fish in flowing water, which seems to us quite unseemly and unbrotherly as well as selfish and not agreeable to the word of God ... In the fifth place we are aggrieved in the matter of wood-cutting, for the noble folk have appropriated all the woods to themselves alone. If a poor man requires wood he must pay double for it ... In the eleventh place we will entirely abolish the due called Todfall (that is, heriot) and will no longer endure it, nor allow widows and orphans to be thus shamefully robbed against God's will, and in violation of justice and right, as has been done in many places, and by those who should shield and protect them ... The peace of Christ abide with us all



... In May 1520, Müntzer became a pastor in Zwickau in Saxony ... In August 1524, Müntzer became one of the leaders of the uprising later known as the German Peasants' War ... Under torture he confessed that he believed that omnia sunt communia, all things are in common. His head and body were displayed as a warning to all those who might again preach treasonous doctrines ...

struggle4progress

(118,041 posts)
38. Let's listen to Woody a bit
Thu Nov 27, 2014, 06:45 AM
Nov 2014
... He said to the rich
"Give your money to the poor"
So they laid Jesus Christ in His grave ...


Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Wake Up to the Smell of C...