Religion
Related: About this forumWest Mich. towns riled by atheist's crusade
Kahle
(Photo: Kendra Stanley-Mills / AP)
Francis X. Donnelly, The Detroit News
12 a.m. EST January 24, 2015
Norton Shores What is an atheist doing in the heart of Michigan's Bible Belt?
Raising hell, for one thing.
Mitch Kahle, who moved to this lakefront community in western Michigan a year ago, has quickly made his presence felt.
He convinced Ottawa County to remove a religious sign from a county park, persuaded Grand Haven to turn a 48-foot cross on city land into an anchor, and got two school districts to stop a minister from continuing to hold lunchtime programs at schools.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/
edhopper
(33,615 posts)even if he is a "Militant fundamentalist anti-theist".
rug
(82,333 posts)I hope you read the entire article.
or at least scanned it.
I'll give it another go.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)confronted by someone who shows them they don't?
rug
(82,333 posts)That, and the different persons and groups who are slowly emerging and choosing sides.
That, and how he's transplanted a strategy he used successfully in Hawaii into western Michigan, a homogeneous, Calvinist region that could hardly be more different.
he is meeting some success. Which I applaud. I don't think religion belongs in the public sector. (no, I'm not saying religion can't be public)
He certainly doesn't mince words.
longship
(40,416 posts)There is a reason that there is a town called Holland on the coast of Lake Michigan. The Dutch Reformed Church is strong here. In fact, it very well may be the Dutch Reformed center. That's why Grand Rapids has Calvin College in its midst.
It also is why half of Grand Rapids is named AmWay, or DeVoss -- Calvinists all. And let us not forget Blackwater, also a Calvanist front from the evil DeVoss family.
Voting Democrat here is a singular useless exercise. Yet my good friends and I soldier on.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)the isle is full of noises,"
longship
(40,416 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)It has an Oval Office replica, always good entertainment, probably used in multiple Hollywood films.
The best things in Grand Rapids are Art Prize and Founders Brewing. The former is radical and crazy artworks, the latter is really good food and superb brews.
Unfortunately, all the good restaurants downtown are closed on Sunday. The Calvanists roll up all the sidewalks.
rug
(82,333 posts)We were staying at the Amway Grand Plaza and I decided to talk a walk along the river. Lo and behold, there he was.
Dorian Gray
(13,501 posts)All Day IPA is one of our favorites to bring to weekend get togethers with friends.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)They had never seen a place so white and called it "Pleasantville" (like the movie). It was indeed without color and felt very calvinistic.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)While I support his cause(s), I sure wish he could proceed without being antagonistic. Maybe it's not possible in this case.
I was not aware that there was a bible belt in Michigan and that people in Michigan called outsiders carpetbaggers. Live and learn.
rug
(82,333 posts)It's the home of Thomas Nelson / Zondervan publishers as well as WestBow Press, a Christian self-publishing company. I have no doubt a lot of the books that are routinely scorned in here come from there. It's also the home of Calvin College, not to mention Gerry Ford's old district. I have cousins in Grand Rapids and when I'm out there there's a fundy flavor, distinctly different from the South, but still fundy. Kind of like Thai food compared to Szechuan, distinctly different but still Asian.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I did go to a meeting in Traverse City and spent a few days. My kids had never been to a place so homogeneous in their lives and called it Pleasantville.
I guess this should not surprise me.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)two State kind of place.
That's how they end up with people like Rick Snyder.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It sounds so, well, southern!
okasha
(11,573 posts)I give him props for taking his causes out into the real world under his own name rather than making a career as an anonymous keyboard warrior.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)credite for pursuing his agenda.
I just wish he could do it in a less hostile way, but sometimes fire has to be fought with fire.
okasha
(11,573 posts)where confrontation needs to give way to negotiation, then cooperation. Malcolm X. learned this when he made the pilgrimage to Mecca. Some people can't or won't make the transition(s), though. I suspect this man is one of the latter. Hence the "scowl for the camera, dear" photo.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The image seems purposefully menacing, doesn't it? It seems to reflect his persona.
on point
(2,506 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)The only thing I object to is the hostility on both sides. I would rather see them building bridges than firewalls.
He is on the right side on this and I hope he is able to change hearts and minds.
on point
(2,506 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:17 PM - Edit history (1)
We have a problem now with people who do not respect the constitution and rights of others. They should've self policed and said , no these religious displays don't belong in public spaces. It is not the person who put up resistance and called them on it that committed the affront. It is those who did it in first place that did and are the ones deserving of condemnation for breaking the peace, not the one who resisted
cbayer
(146,218 posts)there is general agreement that enforcement of state/church separation is a good thing. Sometimes it is done in a positive way and other times things escalate.
I would rather see this as an opportunity to educate so there are less issues over time.
If I point fingers, I will do it at both sides. I think he is unnecessarily adversarial and says some really hostile things about religion in general. I think the other side goes way over the line in their threats and name calling.
One of the things I generally like about FFRF is that they generally take the high road. They don't usually lower themselves to the derisive name calling that so further alienates people.
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)No question about it. He is putting his life on the line for freedom.
He has received hate mail and death threats, and been cursed at by Christians.
To citizen blues, what do you think of that? Can you provide any examples of an atheist making death threats?
During the two sessions, 15 people spoke about the sign, virtually all wanting it to be returned. One compared its removal to the Holocaust.
This is an insult not only to everyone of the Jewish faith, but to humanity itself. That is what is known as Christian privilege.
persuaded Grand Haven to turn a 48-foot cross on city land into an anchor
So, religion does have some use after all. Ha Ha Ha
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Perhaps you are completely unaware of what has happened to some of the prominent women involved in organized atheism, but "death threat" would be a mild way of describing what some of their fellow atheists have made.
Just google atheists women death threats and you will get more than you could imagine.
This position that atheists are saintly is ridiculous. They are human and just as there are bad people in any group, there are bad people in that one.
Religion has lots of uses. For example, it give you something to hate on and a whole lot of people to feel superior to.
I did google it and found nothing but death threats towards atheists. Show me some examples of atheists making death threats against Christians.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You asked for example of atheists making death threats and there are plenty to be had.
There are also death threats and other horrible behavior exhibited by atheists towards some women who are speaking out about video games.
There is a subculture of rank misogyny deep within the atheist community. It is a small but really heinous group. It should not be ignored, but exposed and marginalized.
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)I acknowledge that there are bad atheists. I am specifically looking for examples of bad atheists making death threats against Christians over the issue of religious freedom. Those assholes playing video games have nothing in common with this issue. Quit reaching.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This is what you said:
I provided them. They are examples.
I'm not reaching. I am objecting to you taking completely unsupportable positions.
Now you have moved the goalposts to this:
which is a much more highly defined request.
I am not aware of that having happened and there is no question that it happens the other way frequently.
But some vandals did smash a statue of jesus in a cemetery in California yesterday, lol.
http://ktla.com/2015/01/23/vandals-desecrate-2-graves-smash-jesus-christ-tombstone-at-cemetery-in-san-gabriel/
The issue under discussion was religious freedom, not video games. You moved the goalposts in a childish attempt at scoring some points.
Last I looked, a statue wasn't a living being. Still reaching.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)your subsequent request, I guess we have nothing more to talk about.
In addition, when you resort to ad homs like "childish attempt at scoring some points", you have already lost the debate.
okasha
(11,573 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)on point
(2,506 posts)terip64
(1,576 posts)forsaken mortal
(112 posts)Just make the spaces open to all religions, I'm sure the locals will be tolerant of the goat god that comes to visit.