Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 10:24 AM Apr 2012

The Toxicity Of Religious Belief Systems

Batocchio of Vagabond Scholar has an excellent post up today analyzing the hypocrisy of their demands for special political privileges that theocratic religious authoritarians constantly make. The whole thing is worth reading, as Batocchio is one of the best long-form bloggers out there.

However, this assertion of his really caught my eye, as it starkly highlights the essential difference between the cognitive makeup of normal decent people and the pathology of religious (or other right-wing) authoritarian followers:

I wanted to assume, charitably, that some religious authoritarians were merely cloistered and unreflective, and had not really thought through the logical consequences of their positions.


The issue isn’t inattention or unreflectiveness. Religious authoritarian followers and other sorts of right-wing authoritarian followers have a cognitive makeup in which there simply is no such thing as objective reality–whether logical or empirical–that demands any sort of consistency whatsoever. It is hard for people whose minds aren’t warped in that particular way to grasp, but the notion that an assertion of fact has to be true or false simply doesn’t exist for them. When you are operating in such a cognitive regime, what normal decent people see as denial, hypocrisy, inconsistency, petulant demands for special privileges, and lying are indistinguishable from their opposites.

It was like John Kyl and “that was not intended as a factual statement”. When *nothing* is intended as a factual statement–indeed, when there are no such things as facts–there can be no such things as hypocrisy, inconsistency, or lying. And this is what makes genuine religious belief so utterly toxic: it demands rejection at the deepest level of cognition of the very notion of fact.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/physioprof/2012/04/12/the-toxicity-of-religious-belief-systems/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook


There is a link embedded in this article that goes to Batocchio's article (I just don't know how to do that)and it is also an interesting read.
28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Toxicity Of Religious Belief Systems (Original Post) cleanhippie Apr 2012 OP
Dan Barker put it well. trotsky Apr 2012 #1
Exactly. cleanhippie Apr 2012 #2
Dennett calls playing the faith card a "bullying move" nt longship Apr 2012 #3
Objectivism tama Apr 2012 #4
Not that I posted this because of you (I really didn't) cleanhippie Apr 2012 #5
I see no reason tama Apr 2012 #6
At the very least, you have assured me that thinking of your posts when reading the article cleanhippie Apr 2012 #10
Psychosis tama Apr 2012 #28
the embedded link Sentath Apr 2012 #7
Post 5 has no factual statements except about someone's opinion saras Apr 2012 #8
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #11
Good stuff. k&r. nt rrneck Apr 2012 #9
Thanks! Comrade PhysioProf Apr 2012 #12
Ah, so it's not church-state mingling. It's religious belief itself. rug Apr 2012 #13
I would say "you're welcome" had I made that assertion. cleanhippie Apr 2012 #14
Yes. The article you posted is about the utter toxicity of religion per se. rug Apr 2012 #15
We will just have to agree to disagree cleanhippie Apr 2012 #16
I don't at the deepest level reject cognition. rug Apr 2012 #19
"I do however reject superficial passive-aggressive evasion." trotsky Apr 2012 #20
See you at the DMZ. rug Apr 2012 #21
LOL!! Awesome!! :D eqfan592 Apr 2012 #22
. rug Apr 2012 #23
. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #25
ANY belief system that considers one's faith "more true" than other people's facts is potentially Viva_Daddy Apr 2012 #17
I would agree but also add that anyone's non-belief system that considers their position cbayer Apr 2012 #18
You dropped an important word in your attempt at turning the sentence around. trotsky Apr 2012 #24
I really want to see if she guesses which one. :) darkstar3 Apr 2012 #27
religion brags about being irrational. provis99 Apr 2012 #26

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. Dan Barker put it well.
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 10:38 AM
Apr 2012

"Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits."

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
4. Objectivism
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:13 AM
Apr 2012

is a philosophical position:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_%28philosophy%29#Objectivism

There is much more to logic than bivalent logic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivalent_logic

The message seems to be that if someone does not believe in objectivism and bivalent logic and that world consists of mere factual statements aka propositions - as "normal decent people" should believe, then they are evil (article uses litany of negative adjectives that I short as "evil&quot .



cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
5. Not that I posted this because of you (I really didn't)
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:36 AM
Apr 2012

But I would be lying my ass off if I said that your posts didn't immediately pop into my mind when I first read this article.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
6. I see no reason
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 11:46 AM
Apr 2012

to doubt the factual statements of post #5 and I consider the hypothesis that belief in objectivism, bivalent logic and propositionalism does in fact reduce to certain neurological processes in the brain, quite plausible.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
10. At the very least, you have assured me that thinking of your posts when reading the article
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 12:29 PM
Apr 2012

was not an act of psychosis.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
28. Psychosis
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:04 AM
Apr 2012

From your comment I see that subconsciouss is talking to you - or rather through you - loud and clear.

From the point of view of spiritual evolution (which is in fact quite physical), psychosis is about facing and overcoming fears. And there's nothing to fear but fear itself.

From the point of view of social norms and fearfull ego, psychosis is a social stigma, a mental disease to be avoided at all costs.

So depending from the point of view, psychosis is both disease and cure.



 

saras

(6,670 posts)
8. Post 5 has no factual statements except about someone's opinion
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 12:10 PM
Apr 2012

If you meant post 4, personally I consider it namecalling, and an example of the sort of fascist thought the article is criticizing.

"When you are operating in such a cognitive regime, what normal decent people see as denial, hypocrisy, inconsistency, petulant demands for special privileges, and lying are indistinguishable from their opposites."

Personally I would substitute "primates" for "normal, decent people" - a rhetorical error on the author's part, easily remedied without altering the essential truth of the statement. Monkeys know what denial is, they know what hypocrisy is, they know what lying is, and they don't need anyone's social theory to explain how they REALLY work.

I'm beginning to think that people who grow up with media and get intellectual jobs straight out of school are incapable, through lack of brain development, of understanding certain things about the nonhuman world, almost as though they lost their chance to wire physical laws into their worldview. But the most bizarre arguments about truth and reality always come from people who think people are the universe, and would apparently be equally happy as disembodied brains in vats.

The way you can tell? If you experience anything "real" about virtual reality, instead of experiencing yourself on your ass in a chair, staring at computer screens with plastic doodads in your hands.

Response to saras (Reply #8)

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
14. I would say "you're welcome" had I made that assertion.
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 01:25 PM
Apr 2012
And this is what makes genuine religious belief so utterly toxic: it demands rejection at the deepest level of cognition of the very notion of fact.


This is really what this article is about. But you know that.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
15. Yes. The article you posted is about the utter toxicity of religion per se.
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 01:33 PM
Apr 2012

Not about theocracy, the religious right, pedophilia, psychotic delusions and all the other reasons posited for disgust with religion.

It is the very notion of religious belief itself, no matter the particular belief, that is considered abhorrent.

A bold, yet untenable, position.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
16. We will just have to agree to disagree
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 01:42 PM
Apr 2012

I can understand how your rejection at the deepest level of cognition of the very notion of fact will never allow us to find real agreement.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
19. I don't at the deepest level reject cognition.
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 02:38 PM
Apr 2012

I do however reject superficial passive-aggressive evasion.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
18. I would agree but also add that anyone's non-belief system that considers their position
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 02:33 PM
Apr 2012

"more true" than other people's is also potentially toxic.

Particularly when there is a need to fight against those that have used religion to try and destroy the basic tenets of the Democratic party (or liberal/progressive ideals in general).

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
24. You dropped an important word in your attempt at turning the sentence around.
Thu Apr 12, 2012, 03:43 PM
Apr 2012

A very important word.

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»The Toxicity Of Religious...