Can an Atheist Value Faith?

[rug]

June 24, 2016
by Jeffrey Taylor

I need to start by saying this was a tough piece to write. I don’t want to alienate those readers who do follow a faith of some kind, and I don’t have a good answer to this titular question. As an atheist married to a pastor and who goes to church to support RevMo, I want to respect that people have faith. I try, but I don’t have a respect for faith that I wish I could.

Several years ago, I was discussing theology with an Episcopalian friend and he asked me “Do you specifically identify as an atheist?” I had to give it some thought. Usually when it came up, I would go ahead and say I was atheist. I hadn’t yet looked into different atheist groups like Secular Humanists or atheist churches.

Finally I replied, “I don’t necessarily identify as an atheist, but I do fit the definition of one because I don’t believe in any gods. If anything, I identify as a skeptic.” In simple terms, that means that I am skeptical of any notions that lack empirical evidence. Essentially the reason I can’t subscribe to a religion or belief in any gods is because I lack faith. So I’m what’s called an agnostic atheist. I came to this conclusion before I learned that there was a specific Skeptic community among some atheists.

I realize a lot of readers know exactly what I’m saying here, but many won’t, so I’ll break it down.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theatheistandthepastor/2016/06/can-an-atheist-value-faith/

[ret5hd]

1. I can respect a person that has faith.

Not because he has faith, but despite it. Not so sure I can respect "faith" as an amorphous ill-defined concept, but I can respect a person (for reasons other than this faith) who holds such a concept as true.

[rug]

9. Do you think there are other types of faith besides religious faith?

[thesquanderer]

16. Sure, people can have non-religious faith.

People can have (or lack) faith in their government/leaders. Or in their doctors.

[Kelvin Mace]

2. I repsect a person's right to have a faith

but cannot respect any faith which drives a person to bigoted/hateful action.

[thesquanderer]

15. Respecting the person's *right* to have a faith is not the same as respecting the faith. (n/t)

[Kelvin Mace]

18. That is precisely my point

My respect for a "faith" is dictated by its dogma. People have a right to express an opinion, but I am under no obligation to respect the opinion, only their right to express one.

[anoNY42]

3. One can "value" anything, even if merely as a means to an end.

For instance, Donald Trump values (others') idiocy, as a means to his own ends.

I am an athiest. I recognize that some faithful folks do good works, and I find those works valuable. However, that value does not impart any sort of respect on my part towards ghost stories. I am respectful towards the people, but as another poster has already said, that respect is in spite of faith.

[DirkGently]

4. I kind of love this question.

Non-believer here (okay atheist, but it's a stupidly loaded term at this point):

Faith, according to this piece (which says the Bible backs this up) is:

"Belief in something without evidence."

I've been interested for a while in the idea that faith (defined as above) is considered by many to be a virtue. In the harshest terms, in order to be a good idea, faith would have to somehow turn out to be well-founded and true. It's hard to find a way to think a false belief is a good idea after all. If there is no (fill in the god) aren't people at the least wasting a lot of energy, and at worst, making a lot of decisions and voicing a lot of opinions based on nonsense?

The only way I can make that work for me is to undermine the definition a little, and allow for faith to be either philosophy (for which I suppose there is theoretical rhetorical "evidence&quot e.g.,

"Forgiveness is better than vengeance," (because it ultimately works better) Can't be proven, but there is an internal logic in play, so it's not random, or just based on tradition or social conformity, or a desire to self-delude.

Or you could posit faith as a kind of semi-conscious metaphorical tool, like

"I choose to live as though we were all governed by a supernatural being who has given us guidance through ancient writings," etc. That gets a little trickier though, because unless there's some self-awareness mixed in, that's pretty close to embracing cognitive dissonance, and that doesn't seem like a good idea.

Sometimes faith gets mixed up with hope, which I think is a viable psychological tool for survival:

"There probably isn't an oasis over the next sand dune, but let's imagine it's possible and keep crawling." Nothing wrong with that. You're basically using imagination to get to the best possible state of mind. Sitting there dying of thirst because there's probably no point in going on is a bad use of empirical evidence.

I guess what I can't get behind is the idea of either

a) acculturating children to feel comfortable with religious belief (and uncomfortable without it) by sheer dint of repetition and family pressure, without any examination of why we should or shouldn't do that or

b) rational adults deliberately short-circuiting the thinking process they would apply to anything else in their lives, including the question of anyone else's religious beliefs, to hold on to something that, if examined honestly, doesn't really make any sense. I think there's a danger in leaping in and out of critical thinking that way.

It's not all quite that simple, but that's where I've come down after a number years thinking along these lines.

[rock]

5. I can

Zero. If you can believe in a thing by faith alone, I can believe not in that thing by faith alone.

[rug]

6. It's not at all about what you believe or don't believe.

It's not all about you.

The question is can you value another's belief.

[rock]

7. Hey rug! Are we talking faith or belief?

I draw a fine line between belief with no proof and belief with some proof. I also realize these terms are ambiguous and have multiple meanings but I'm willing to discuss it if you want.

[rug]

8. The article talks about faith.

I see belief as the subject of faith.

Neither are matters subject to conventional proof.

That can nonetheless be eminently reasonable.

There is, of course, the question of what serves as proof.

[rock]

10. Well, I do believe (he he) that your concerns

may be a bit too hard for me. "Proof" is a particularly hard nut to crack. I will not, however, accept "proof" without "evidence". Now, I only have to decide what "evidence" is! I do accept that a person can have a belief without proof, which I call faith. But, of course, I will not accept that a belief with proof. Yep, you've picked a hard subject.

[rug]

11. If you have a few minutes, read this chapter from Moby Dick.

Cutting me a green measuring-rod, I once more dived within the skeleton. From their arrow-slit in the skull, the priests perceived me taking the altitude of the final rib, “How now!” they shouted; “Dar’st thou measure this our god! That’s for us.” “Aye, priests- well, how long do ye make him, then?” But hereupon a fierce contest rose among them, concerning feet and inches; they cracked each other’s sconces with their yard-sticks- the great skull echoed- and seizing that lucky chance, I quickly concluded my own admeasurements.

http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/42/moby-dick/783/chapter-102-a-bower-in-the-arsacides/

This has always summed up the matter for me.

[rock]

12. Will do

But it will be sometime tomorrow before I get back to you.

[rug]

13. It's a funny, and short, chapter.

[rock]

17. It is short and funny

But especially odd, both in style and content. I have not ready "Moby Dick" except for a few selections. I have trouble understanding what Melville is getting at but find it fun reading. I in fact peeked at a few of the subsequent chapters. It has the same style, bizarre but in an odd way enjoyable!

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Funny story.

Working late shift, whole team had to do inventory, got off about 3am. People are a little punchy from the hours, whatever, we go to Denny's for a snack before going home for the night.

One person at the table was hemming and hawing and didn't know what to order and kept asking questions about what words on the menu meant.

At one point, the server was fed up and said 'just point at the picture, jackass'.

Nobody else at the table registered what just happened. Just me. Flustered, but also not apparently registering the direct insult, the person ordering finally picked something, and the server moved on about his business.



To answer your question, I can 'respect' that person chose the burger and even seemed to enjoy it, if you want to use that word. But value? No, he flipped a mental coin. There's no value to me, in his choice to pick that burger at that time. He could have sat there, apparently uninterested in food and stared off into space for all the 'value' it carried for me. It wasn't meaningful. It wasn't philosophically deep. It wasn't even apparently particularly meaningful to him.


Counter-question. Do you somehow need me to value your faith? Why would you even care if I value your relationship/preference for a thing I cannot perceive as even existing?

[rug]

21. To answer your question, no, I don't need your validation.

I make a point of examining my opinions, on virtually everything, daily. When I do reach an opinion, I'm comfortable with it and confident it holds together. I enjoy listening to other opinions, particularly contrary ones, and, rarely, I am sometimes persuaded otherwise. But my opinions are utterly independent of whether someone else values them.

That said, I have a low threshhold for words that seek only to attempt to belittle my, or others', opinions. Because at that point, no one's opinions are being discussed, only posturing. An entirely different interaction then ensues.

As to your story, not knowing anyone involved, 'just point at the picture, jackass' doesn't strike me initially as an insult. I have a lot of casual interactions and insult as a form of humor is common. But then, I wasn't there. If the tone used was hostile or impatient, I expect I'd have a different reaction. Otherwise, I don't think the story is a useful analogy. t doesn't sound like he had faith in, was vested in, or even an opinion, on his meal. If this is a routine occurrence I probably would just tell him to shut up myself and order him eggs. Sunnyside up.

[DerekG]

14. Absolutely; I've met a number of inspiring Christian leftists

I lost my faith years ago, but have retained a tremendous admiration for the Christians who take up Jesus' call to bear one's cross in an environ of overwhelming institutional, systematic evil. They're bearing witness and decrying injustice--and it's a beautiful, beautiful thing to see.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Can? Sure. Any individual CAN think whatever they want.

One can value things that don't exist. One can value other people holding ideas about things that don't exist. Ask a book publisher or any number of profiteers upon the religious ideas of other people.