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rug

(82,333 posts)
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:04 AM Jun 2012

When the Atheists Are Right

Posted: 06/06/2012 3:33 pm
Mark Osler.
Professor of Law, University of St. Thomas

Because I write as a Christian in favor of marriage equality, I receive a lot of correspondence from people who feel I'm mistaken. There seem to be a large number of suggestions, for example, that I will burn in a lake of flaming sulfur. I usually respond, as kindly as I can, if there is some hope of dialogue.

But then, last week, I received a letter that truly broke my heart. It did so, in part, because I know well the claims of atheists that religion does more harm than good in the world, and have often responded in the defense of faith. But there are some times that the harm done by religion is so clear that I doubt myself. A letter I received this week from "Kevin" presented me with one of those moments of doubt.

As with many other of my correspondents, Kevin responded to an article I wrote which was filled with references to the Bible by accusing me of ignoring the Bible -- a book that he reads to require condemnation by all of us of those who sin (at least so long as the sin is homosexuality).

After several paragraphs complaining of "the homosexual agenda" and "lifestyle choices," Kevin laid bare a real, awful, and certain tragedy:

"Lastly, I can speak on this subject very clearly as I am the Father of a child that has chosen the homosexual lifestyle. Even now as I'm writing you this email, my son is lying in a hospital bed dying from his acts of homosexuality. His Mother and I raised him to know Christ, but as a young man he took up this lifestyle against our counsel. Because of his lifestyle and nothing else, he is now facing death. Just know that our sins are forgivable and God is a gracious and loving God, but he is very, very clear about the penalties, especially homosexuality. We are saddened and heart broken that our baby son is going to die such a horrible death and is suffering because of his decision to live the homosexual lifestyle. But we also know and knew what God say's about the wages of sin. The wages of sin are DEATH.

"Sincerely, 'Kevin'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-osler/when-the-atheists-are-right_b_1559177.html

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When the Atheists Are Right (Original Post) rug Jun 2012 OP
Oh, but "Kevin" isn't a "RealChristian(tm)" n/t BiggJawn Jun 2012 #1
It's polite to wait until someone actually says that before trotting out that chestnut. rug Jun 2012 #3
What's the fun in that? cbayer Jun 2012 #23
So - do you think he's a real Christian? dmallind Jun 2012 #27
Who am I to say what he is or is not? cbayer Jun 2012 #30
You're not. He is. And he says he's a Christian motivated by Christianity dmallind Jun 2012 #34
He is whatever he says he is, just as you are. cbayer Jun 2012 #35
Absolutely true dmallind Jun 2012 #36
Atheism is rather simply defined, though the way an individual experiences cbayer Jun 2012 #37
The way I see it... rexcat Jun 2012 #38
Disturbing thing is, the religion of "Kevin" is doing exactly what its proponents here say it does. trotsky Jun 2012 #2
I really don't think that either you or I can extrapolate from his pain rug Jun 2012 #4
I'm not having an argument - are you? trotsky Jun 2012 #5
You are. I won't. Not on this story. rug Jun 2012 #6
If you say so, rug. trotsky Jun 2012 #8
No, it's not difficult. It's profound. rug Jun 2012 #10
It's an anonymous Internet forum, rug. trotsky Jun 2012 #13
And it's someone's son who is actually dying. rug Jun 2012 #14
Yet you keep replying to me anyway. trotsky Jun 2012 #15
The last word is all yours. rug Jun 2012 #17
My last word is above. It's in the form of a question. trotsky Jun 2012 #18
So now you won't even confront the most basic questions raised by your OWN OPs? darkstar3 Jun 2012 #45
I think you don't know the most basic question this story raises. rug Jun 2012 #46
The guy's a bigot. CrispyQ Jun 2012 #20
I totally agree. trotsky Jun 2012 #21
I would say that his coping mechanism... rexcat Jun 2012 #39
The real horror amuse bouche Jun 2012 #7
I'm an atheist, but find many good teachings in the Bible, as does the author... Scuba Jun 2012 #9
It's an interesting post coming from this author. rug Jun 2012 #11
I bet even FOX News has its liberal employees. nt ZombieHorde Jun 2012 #31
I agree completely. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #25
"One doesn't have to believe in a deity to learn from parables." That perfectly describes ... Scuba Jun 2012 #26
The christian holy book... rexcat Jun 2012 #40
While I can understand lukkadairish Jun 2012 #12
As an atheist I have no issues with anybodies faith. Shadowflash Jun 2012 #16
what he ^ said! madmom Jun 2012 #19
Ta da!! Scuba Jun 2012 #28
I'm with ya except for OriginalGeek Jun 2012 #43
agree cbayer Jun 2012 #44
This man's faith will offer him comfort rrneck Jun 2012 #22
Some comfort. Scuba Jun 2012 #29
Yes. rrneck Jun 2012 #32
Actually (and somewhat off topic) cbayer Jun 2012 #33
Why do you think they call it dope...? rrneck Jun 2012 #41
Very familiar with dopamine. cbayer Jun 2012 #42
Tragic. cbayer Jun 2012 #24
sad a smart liberal Jun 2012 #47
Welcome to DU! Couldn't agree more. shcrane71 Jun 2012 #49
In a battle of wits, I am unarmed. turtlerescue1 Jun 2012 #48
Nice post. rug Jun 2012 #50
WHOA! turtlerescue1 Jun 2012 #51
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. It's polite to wait until someone actually says that before trotting out that chestnut.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:16 AM
Jun 2012

It makes discussion more interesting.

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
27. So - do you think he's a real Christian?
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 12:52 PM
Jun 2012

He says his motives are to act in a Christian way. Do you think he's lying? Not is he right in exegesis, but is he lying in claiming his motivation?

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
34. You're not. He is. And he says he's a Christian motivated by Christianity
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 02:21 PM
Jun 2012

Therefore that's what he is, no?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
35. He is whatever he says he is, just as you are.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 02:28 PM
Jun 2012

You may define yourself as an atheist, but you do not represent all atheists nor do all atheists represent you. You may have a lotus symbol as your avatar, but you may be quite different from others who sport the same avatar.

No?

dmallind

(10,437 posts)
36. Absolutely true
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 02:49 PM
Jun 2012

I think I've made the point about atheists having no spokesman several times - me very much included for sure. I am however capable of expressing definitions of words, including atheism. I just can't, and don't, and even wouldn't, say all atheists understand the definition the same way. Speaking for the word atheism and speaking for the people who are atheists are very different animals. I can define Jainism pretty well too. I don't speak for Jains or try to.

When I tell you I'm motivated by atheism to do something, it will be because I am, just like this guy is motivated by Christianity (and for the 'bum fans out there, just like Pot and Stalin never claimed about atheism).

So in summary, we agree his hate is motivated by his Christianity?

What percentage of Christians would agree with him you think? Not been surveyed as far as I know, but opposition to gay rights would be a good start. It's not like people normally want to withhold equal rights from those they consider equal is it? I am sure there is a gap between "they shouldn't marry or have legal protections" and "God wants to kill them for their sin". But I would guess it's not a huge gap.

EDIT - the avatar is just a rotating religious symbol from those DU offers. I change every few weeks.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
37. Atheism is rather simply defined, though the way an individual experiences
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 02:58 PM
Jun 2012

or expresses it may be very different from one person to another.

I don't agree that his hate is motivated by his christianity. I don't know what his hate is motivated by. He may use his religious beliefs to justify his hate, but does it motivate it? I don't know.

There are statistics about religious affiliation and GLBT rights:



Now, as to how many share his extremist views, one would expect the numbers to be different, and much lower in terms of supporting him. This set of data reflects a pretty general question.

Why do you sport religious symbols?

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
38. The way I see it...
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 03:20 PM
Jun 2012

"Kevin" is hiding his bigotry and homophobia behind his religion, even to the point of condemning his own son. "Kevin" lacks any humanity. Where did he get that? His religion.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
2. Disturbing thing is, the religion of "Kevin" is doing exactly what its proponents here say it does.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:15 AM
Jun 2012

It is bringing comfort and meaning to his life. Losing one's child is a tragedy, I can't even bring myself to try and imagine it happening to me, it's far too painful a thought.

But Kevin's religion gives him a way to cope with it. In a horribly twisted and disturbing way, yes, but that's what it is doing. He has a reason for his son to die, it makes sense to him, it will help him accept the outcome.

So is that a bad thing?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
4. I really don't think that either you or I can extrapolate from his pain
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:19 AM
Jun 2012

and use it as an exhibit in an internet argument.

The OP is struggling with an answer. I hope he posts it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. I'm not having an argument - are you?
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:25 AM
Jun 2012

I'm asking a question. Kevin's religion is helping him cope with a tragic event in his life. We are told this is one of the best aspects of religion. If so, how can we find fault with Kevin or his religious beliefs?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
6. You are. I won't. Not on this story.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:33 AM
Jun 2012

"We are told this is one of the best aspects of religion. If so, how can we find fault with Kevin or his religious beliefs?"

I'll answer some other time. Or you can check the numerous other threads on this theme.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
10. No, it's not difficult. It's profound.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:44 AM
Jun 2012

I won't snark in this thread either. This is one of those times when the word solemnity fits.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. It's an anonymous Internet forum, rug.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:50 AM
Jun 2012

By posting this you are inviting commentary and discussion on the topic. I don't appreciate your efforts to try and shame me into silence.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
14. And it's someone's son who is actually dying.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 09:29 AM
Jun 2012

This thread is not an invitation to rehash the usual stale arguments. This can prompt a lot of discussion, death and humanity, for instance, but old antireligious/theist/atheist crap is not one I'll have in this case.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
15. Yet you keep replying to me anyway.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 09:39 AM
Jun 2012

So either I'm "rehashing old arguments" and you're feeding it, or I have a valid question and you want to shame me into silence by ratcheting up the emotional appeals.

The focus of the article in the OP is religion. You posted this in the Religion group. Questions about religion as pertaining to the article you posted are most certainly valid and you have no right to try and silence them with emotional bullying.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
18. My last word is above. It's in the form of a question.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 10:25 AM
Jun 2012

But I will understand if like you, other believers decline to answer it.

darkstar3

(8,763 posts)
45. So now you won't even confront the most basic questions raised by your OWN OPs?
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 10:46 PM
Jun 2012

I think you've been taking lessons...

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
46. I think you don't know the most basic question this story raises.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 10:49 PM
Jun 2012

You need lessons, which I won't be giving you in this thread.

CrispyQ

(36,518 posts)
20. The guy's a bigot.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 10:28 AM
Jun 2012

I'm sorry the son was raised by a man who is so threatened by love between two people, that he actually condones his God taking his son's life. What is the point of being a fucking judgmental asshole at this point in his son's life?

My heart goes out to the son.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
21. I totally agree.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 10:53 AM
Jun 2012

But I assure you, he doesn't feel he is being judgmental. You know the line as well as I do - "I'm not judging you, God is!"

His religion is helping him cope, albeit in a very ugly and hurtful way, with a tragic loss. This, we are told, is a very important and positive aspect of religion.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
39. I would say that his coping mechanism...
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 03:24 PM
Jun 2012

is twisted. "Kevin" lacks humanity, even to the point of forsaking his own child. He takes a bigoted, religious view on homosexuality. For god's sake "lifestyle"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

amuse bouche

(3,657 posts)
7. The real horror
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:35 AM
Jun 2012

is the fact that the parents chose to live a closed minded ignorant lifestyle

Is there anything more deranged than choosing or inflicting needless suffering?

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
9. I'm an atheist, but find many good teachings in the Bible, as does the author...
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:43 AM
Jun 2012

And there, in the Book of Luke, is the story of the prodigal son -- the younger of two, who demanded his inheritance and then squandered it through "dissolute living." He hits bottom, having run through the money, and resolves to return to his father and repent. However, before he has a chance to say anything, his father runs to him, puts his arms around him and kisses him. There is love there, before repentance, even in the apparent absence of repentance. There is love before all; that is what Christ directs us to do.


on edit:

Even if one professing to be Christian (wrongly) thinks homosexuality is a sin, the Bible tells him/her not to condemn, but to love.

Being gay is natural. Choosing to join a gay-hating religion is a lifestyle choice.

Starboard Tack

(11,181 posts)
25. I agree completely.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 12:43 PM
Jun 2012

The bible definitely contains some of life's best lessons. Unfortunately, a lot of folk get caught up in all the crap that hides those nuggets. One doesn't have to believe in a deity to learn from parables.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
26. "One doesn't have to believe in a deity to learn from parables." That perfectly describes ...
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 12:51 PM
Jun 2012

... my position on the Bible.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
40. The christian holy book...
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 03:29 PM
Jun 2012

is one of many sources of good teachings but it also has a lot of "bad" teachings as far as I am concerned. It is not a reference that I go to.

As far as "gay" being natural "Kevin" thinks differently than you and me. I think it is a hard wired senereo but "Kevin's" chosen religion says differently.

lukkadairish

(122 posts)
12. While I can understand
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 08:48 AM
Jun 2012

a human's desire to assign human explanation or human pain to categories that help us compartmentalize what happens to us and our loved ones so that we can 'explain' it, I will dispute this man's claim with another
There was a death in my community of a local chef recently and his impact on all of us was immense. His concentric circles of people included the usual: the restaurant/hospitality folk, biz folk, and the 'chamber of commerce' folk if you will. But in the days following this sudden tragedy, I think the public got a searing look at a man who literally walked his faith by running a food kitchen for the less fortunate, by mentoring a few at risk youth who attended his church, by lending his expertise to his merchant's association so they could succeed as a whole..........the food kitchen is especially touching. He died on a sunny afternoon, then the very next day his restaurant staff served the evening meal for all of those who still needed to eat------I heard that his spouse told them that it needed to be done because those people would have never found out any other way, as they had no newspapers, no tv's, no cell phones, or nobody to actually tell them what had happened.
His obit listed him as a Christian, and he was seemingly a great man. So I submit this. Death takes who it takes. He had no sin that required his death as a penalty. He died during recreation with a good friend on a sunny day, living his life to the fullest. There is no balance sheet or great ledger of who gets chosen to go.

Just my spin on it

Shadowflash

(1,536 posts)
16. As an atheist I have no issues with anybodies faith.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 09:39 AM
Jun 2012

Last edited Fri Jun 8, 2012, 02:02 PM - Edit history (1)

If you don't like birth control, fine, don't use it.
If you think being homosexual is a sin, great, don't be homosexual.
If you think abortion is a slap in the face of god, then wonderful, don't get an abortion.

But as soon as you start trying to push this bullshit fairytale crap off onto the rest of us through legislation (or otherwise!), THAT is when it becomes and issue.

Nope, I have no beef with religion or religious people, until they demand that I start following the tenants of their ancient philosophies conjured up by illiterate bronze age goat herders. Then we have a problem.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
22. This man's faith will offer him comfort
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 11:52 AM
Jun 2012

but no inspiration. He won't be encouraged to seek answers or live his life with justice and compassion. His faith is not food for his soul, but an addictive drug.

Who was the pusher?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
33. Actually (and somewhat off topic)
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 01:55 PM
Jun 2012

there is often way too much of addictive drugs. There are very few drugs that animals, under experimental conditions, will take until they die (cocaine being one). Most will be stopped by the animal before it kills them.

rrneck

(17,671 posts)
41. Why do you think they call it dope...?
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 03:49 PM
Jun 2012

Addictive drugs trigger the release of the original addictive drug - dopamine.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

It feels good to care, to help others, to be a member of a group that cares about you. Dopamine is an evolutionary reward for cooperation. And it works. Cooperation through empathy has been the key to our survival.

Through the miracle of modern chemistry, we can reward ourselves without any actual risk or effort. We have drugs that trigger dopamine release. But that modern convenience isn't confined to chemistry.

We can care, and subcontract the actual work and risk involved in acting on our concerns, without having to actually put any skin in the game. The down side is that since we aren't actually paying to help people but rather for the dopamine release derived from caring, the organizations that deliver it are incentivized to please us and not actually help others. And that is where you will find the ideology industry, including religion.


cbayer

(146,218 posts)
42. Very familiar with dopamine.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 04:05 PM
Jun 2012

Complicated substance made even more complicated by how it behaves in various parts of the brain and in concert with other neurotransmitters.

As Freud said, it's all about the attraction to pleasure and avoidance of pain - however that happens.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
24. Tragic.
Fri Jun 8, 2012, 12:05 PM
Jun 2012

I agree with him. If Kevin's god is a judgmental bigot who would cause the death of an innocent as punishment, then it is better to have no god.

a smart liberal

(4 posts)
47. sad
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 02:40 AM
Jun 2012

It is heatbreaking and absolutly disgusting that families are split apart due to what religion says is right or wrong. How about get your face out of your man made bible and spend quality time with the people you say you love. Religion can make love impossible.

turtlerescue1

(1,013 posts)
48. In a battle of wits, I am unarmed.
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 11:00 AM
Jun 2012

The father in your post will have more pain- from his stance before the death of his son.

It isn't spirituality that is the problem, it is Religion.

Ya know, doesn't matter which side someone claims, but when it becomes self-righteous then someone is going to feel abused and uncomfortable. Whether it is by intent or not, the field is no longer level. Read your thread last night, gut response was "Boy I don't need this."

Am no match for you rug, and the ability to spew flames, yet there is a place within that has to nudge you.

I am a Christian, in fact a stuffy Lutheran. Likely it began doc, back when I was still in the womb and mom was teaching Sunday School. Then as it goes California decided it would teach "sight reading" over phonetics in its public schools, the six year old found her rear in a Lutheran School. Got a stay of sentence and released back into public school, only to hear the taunt "goodie two shoes'. In college, was blest with a Jesuit mentor, gave us tools and forced us not to merely defend what we consider Values, but define them. ( If only we would include this idea our kids might be better equipped for life.) Oh yeah, the first day of class with the Jesuit- learned he had flunked an entire English class the previous semester, of course I ran down to try and change my schedule, like that would work eh? When asked if it were true, he got this huge grin and said "If you don't learn the lesson how can you expect to pass the class?"

Some of us have done everything possible to be anything BUT a Christian, sooner or later what you believe or put your faith in catches up to where ever it is you think you are going. Its true, these are not fun times for beliefs as mine, but then read some of Marty Luther's writings when he was daring to take on the Vatican- Humor what a great resource. Yes, I read Luther's writings sure I would hate the man,nope- not even a little. He wasn't perfect, thought the world was flat, and a few other opposing views. Still even in these difficult days for folks like me, its not as overwhelming as what ole Marty tasted.

Before I close and attempt to get ready for the bruising that will come, there is something I am going to share:

"Woe to the legislators of infamous laws, to those who issue tyrannical decrees, who refuse justice to the unfortunate, and cheat the poor among my people of their rights, who make widows their prey and rob the orphan." - Isaiah 10, begins verse 1.

Ya know that just doesn't fit nicely into what the conservative christian(again small "C&quot right ideology teaches. Perhaps, there is something else besides their ways.

Its Saturday, and each Saturday I go and clean the church for Sunday. Grew up with the chapel smelling of lemon oil, yeah, I would do that.

May you day and your heart be filled with sunlight and joy.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
50. Nice post.
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 11:52 AM
Jun 2012

I grew up in a parish staffed by Dominicans. In grammar school I used to help Brother Charles, a lay brother in charge of the church, polish the pews too. Peaceful times. He was a very god and humble man.

Here's what the church looks like today.

turtlerescue1

(1,013 posts)
51. WHOA!
Sat Jun 9, 2012, 12:15 PM
Jun 2012

Boy our little church would fit within this chapel, including the kitchen. offices and my cleaning closet. Be an all day job, a lunch, breaks, etc.

Thankyou for being kind. From what I had read, its sure wasn't what was expected.


aside: yep just had to check before leaving.

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