Atheist files complaint against Columbia restaurant over church-bulletin discount

[rug]

Originally Published Jul 02, 2012 12:55

By CINDY STAUFFER
Staff Writer

A Manheim Township man has filed a complaint against a Columbia restaurant for offering a 10 percent discount for diners who present a church bulletin on Sundays.

John Wolff, who is an atheist, filed the complaint with the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission against Prudhomme's Lost Cajun Kitchen in Columbia.

Wolff said the practice discriminates against him because he does not attend church

"I did this not out of spite but out of a feeling against the prevailing self-righteousness that stems from religion, particularly in Lancaster County," said Wolff, a retired electrical engineer.

http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/681194_Atheist-files-complaint-against-Columbia-restaurant-over-church-bulletin-discount.html

FFRF sent two letters and made a phone call to the restaurant. A copy of the complaint is at the link.

I don't see the Pennylvania Human Rights Commission finding probable cause to proceed.

[dimbear]

1. I can appreciate the logic. Those who will not tithe to church must tithe to this restaurant.

Prudhomme is an old French name which means 'brave man.' Actually leaning toward audacious, IMHO.

[struggle4progress]

2. LOL

... one of the co-owners .. said .. anyone can walk in a church or synagogue and obtain a bulletin, without attending services .... she has no intention of changing the discount program, which she created to bring more traffic into her restaurant on a traditionally slow day ...

[Goblinmonger]

4. So why not just make Sunday 10% off day?

That would be pretty easy. Why does someone need to sneak into a church or synagogue and swipe a bulletin to get the discount?

[struggle4progress]

8. Cuz she's hopin folk drivin home after services will think

Holy Schmidt! I got the church bulletin right-cheer onna seat beside me. Why don't I go drop in for lunch at 10% discount NOW steada goin home first where I might accidentally drop the bulletin into my rubbish bin fulla chicken grease and kitty litter?

[trotsky]

11. I find it quite telling that instead of trying to defend this discriminatory policy...

self-proclaimed liberals/progressives are mocking the concerns of the minority instead.

I wonder what their reaction would be if a business offered a discount for bringing in your voter registration card showing you are a registered Republican? (In states that do that, of course.) I mean, anyone could simply go in and change their registration to get the discount, no big deal!

[MADem]

26. How about showing your...military ID card? Proof of Senior Citizenship?

Military and senior discounts are quite common. Are non-military and non-seniors "discriminated" against? How about the children's discount? Are adults discriminated against because they can't get that?

I don't think this guy has a leg to stand on. He can go get a bulletin without going to church. Or he can print up his own "Church of I Don't Believe Shit" bulletins and hand one of those in.

[Humanist_Activist]

39. Because those aren't federally protected classes protected from discrimination in publicly....

accessible business. This is civics 101 stuff here, such ignorance as you display isn't acceptable.

[MADem]

51. How about Superheroes?

Is Carl's Junior discriminating against me because I don't have a Spiderman costume? If I have one, I can get a free burger today. Without one, I don't get the free chow.

Carl's Junior is not requiring me to BE Spiderman to get the discount, just to possess the costume. The diner is not requiring you to BE religious, just possess a "church bulletin." They don't say which church--hell, you could print up your own, find one online, or grab one from any vestibule of any house of worship that you pass.

There is no "test" of your religious faith, anymore than there is a test of your actual superhero status. You just have to possess an item, readily available to anyone, to get the break.

Feeling hungry? Here--print this out: http://freepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bradytrilogy/kinfolk/Archived-Photos.ElizabethThrashBrady.Collection/Brady,%20Howard%20&%20Family/Church%20Bulletin%20a.jpg

Or will you say the diner is discriminating against people without printers?

[Goblinmonger]

53. Every one of your posts on this thread scream to the privilege that the religious experience

in this country.

I'm sure you are going to deny it, but take a step back and think about it.

[MADem]

59. You know nothing about my views on this issue so don't pretend you do.

I simply am looking at the facts of the matter. There's no case.

Of course, you've already made up your very certain mind about what I think and feel, so I guess you might as well continue this conversation with yourself. No need for me to intrude upon your righteously trampled path!

[cbayer]

62. Now go take that privilege and get you 10% off on breakfast.

[MADem]

68. I could get my discount with this bulletin, no problem, if I had a mind.

All I need is a printer. Don't even have to visit the edifice!

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/bulletins/2012-6_Bulletin.pdf

Click on the link, read the church bulletin.

The complainant has no case. There is no "religious test" and those who say there is are the ones who aren't getting it.

[cbayer]

69. I agree with you. I think they would have accepted anything.

Their only goal was to increase traffic to their restaurant, imo.

[ButterflyBlood]

75. It's like the clubs here that offer a free drink with a same day sporting event ticket stub

It's because people who attend sporting events downtown are quite likely to visit a club, and are more likely to go to one that has such an offer, and thus buy more drinks, giving the club more business. In this case the restaurant knows that people who have just been to church will likely want to go to a restaurant, and giving them a discount helps attract more business. I'm sure you wouldn't have to search far to find some place with a sort of wearing red, white and blue special yesterday.

[Humanist_Activist]

79. Again, a LEGAL promotion isn't comparable to one that violates the Civil Rights Act of 1964. n/t

[ButterflyBlood]

98. People without a church bulletin are not a protected class under that act

There's actually a church I go to sometimes that doesn't hand out bulletins. Partly because they are new and starting up and don't have lots of money, partly to be eco-friendly, and partly because it has a much younger congregation than most churches do and thus is full of people who have no problem just accessing Facebook for events. Anyone who goes to that church that week if there was a restaurant with such a promotion in my area is being "discriminated" against just as much an atheist who doesn't attend at all. I might add there are also Christians that don't attend church very much either, I was one until about a year ago, they're in the same boat as non-attending atheists here. We too would have to go through the massive hassle of printing out a bulletin or picking one up from a different church.

If you think this is a violation you might want to find a case that proves precedent. I highly doubt this is the first ever business to offer such a promotion since 1964.

[pipoman]

207. You really aren't getting this?

There is NO violation of anything. Just because some whackjob doesn't understand the law and decides to mail out some paper because he is too dumb to circumvent a silly promotion doesn't mean he has a case. Why isn't he filing against bars with "ladies nights"? What a waste of good paper. This is a COMPLETELY LEGAL promotion, his claim is a joke.

[MADem]

217. They aren't asking for a recitation of the shahada (Islam) or the Lord's Prayer (Xtian).

They just want a piece of paper that you can download off the internet. There's even an atheist church that publishes online bulletins.

[pipoman]

219. I'm not a lawyer

but spent many years in a legal profession..been in many courtrooms, and had to understand basic legal process. Sometimes it amazes me how many people have no understanding of legal process, even as it pertains to the irrelevance of cause for action in simply filing a legal complaint. Automatically upon filing people who agree with the premise of someone's complaint decides it's merit based on their agreement and not basic legal concepts.

This isn't a case, it's a statement..

[MADem]

222. If the host/hostess in the restaurant asked the customers, instead of their name and number in their

party, to fall down on their knees and accept Jesus Christ/L.Ron Hubbbard/Name Your Poison as their Lord and Personal Savior in order to get that table for four and that discount, I'd have a problem with it, but this, to me, is like a scavenger hunt for a coupon. And the "coupon" can be from an atheist church, too, like that Free Thought one that publishes their bulletins online, or the UU ones that have an atheist "Free Thought" cadre amongst their membership.

I suppose if people wanted to be snarky and "in your face" about it they could gin up their own snarky bulletin and hand that in...of course, since the restaurant owner isn't a church-goer, I don't know how far that snark would fly, or if the owner would even notice or care!

[MADem]

83. Carl's Junior gave free burgers to people who wore Spiderman costumes.

This plainly discriminated against the non-superheroes among us. I think I will sue!

[Goblinmonger]

94. Did you read ANYTHING that Humanist_Activist posted about the Civil Rights Act?

Answer: apparently not.

[Humanist_Activist]

134. I think they did, and they are ignoring it because it disrupts their narrative of keeping...

privilege for their religious beliefs and practices, in other words, they want atheists to be put in their place, near the bottom of the totem pole.

[Goblinmonger]

144. I feel for you and the frustration

you must have in your point being completely ignored.

[MADem]

158. Yes, and it does not apply.

There is no religious test here. I can repeat that all day, too.

[eqfan592]

171. And you'll be wrong all day, too.

So please, continue, if you must.

[MADem]

172. Continue--if "I" must?

You're the one playing the "Nanny Nanny Boo Boo" game here.

I see that you're enjoying it, too.

I will agree to disagree with you--how's that?

Fire up your printer if you want that discount, and have one of those nice days.

[eqfan592]

180. Yes, because if a religious test is simple to pass, then it doesn't actually count as a test, right?

Perhaps you should think that line of reasoning through a bit more and see exactly where it leads.

But I am more than happy to agree to disagree on the issue, which is where I think we will ultimately end up.

[MADem]

189. No one is requiring faith. They are requiring a piece of paper that you can get from

a free thought church, that is supportive of atheist/agnostic POVs, with two clicks of a mouse.

No one has to even compromise "principle" or "religious belief" (given that, for the purposes of this complaint, atheism is now a religion) to get ten percent off. They just need to pony up a piece of paper that they can get from the internet.

[LiberalFighter]

170. I wonder how many will buy the costume so they can get one free burger?

[MADem]

173. It would be so much easier if they could just print out a picture of Spiderman

from the internet and get the burger that way...!

[eqfan592]

181. It would also be legal that way as well.

So I completely agree.

[MADem]

186. It's legal to print out a church bulletin, too.

Unless that dining establishment is "the government," or they tell you that you have to have certain beliefs to get the discount, there is no case.

You can have any faith or none, so long as you bring in a piece of paper that you can get on the internet.

[eqfan592]

191. You'll have to point to where i said printing off the bulletin...

...was illegal. Also, requiring a demonstration of faith, even a hollow one, is still requiring a demonstration of faith.

[MADem]

198. You are NOT being discriminated against.

I never said what you are averring, or even suggested it. RIF.

Print off a bulletin, and go eat. You can print off an ATHEIST church bulletin if you'd like. I provided a link in this thread.

Sheesh. Try to keep up. Your protestations of victimization are hollow as it is, when you don't even follow the thread, you only make your own arguments more inconsequential.

I suppose people who declare nominal affiliation to a faith group, but who do not go to church (most of America) should whine along with you, too? I think they'd probably hit the printer if they really wanted some of that discount Cajun food. Just like someone would buy or borrow a Spiderman outfit if they really wanted a free burger from Carl's, Jr.

[eqfan592]

211. Ya know, I'll put up with a lot of things...

...but somebody who is themselves unable to keep up with a thread, then accuses ME of doing that very thing, is pretty much my line, as I find it to be the most aggravating behavior on a message forum.

Welcome to the ignore list. Good day.

[MADem]

212. You were unable to make your case, so that's your solution?

Well, I must say, I am not surprised! Good day right back at ya!

I've read every single post on this thread. You haven't, plainly.

[Goblinmonger]

63. You don't have to be a theist

to fall into the trap of the privilege of certain classes. That you don't see that giving preference to believers as a big deal is a pretty clear indication of the privilege.

And you don't know anything about me, either, so take your own advice. Interesting that you come into this thread and say how ridiculous every claim is and then play the "you don't know me" card.

But don't take a step back to look at the possibility that you are propping the privilege. It's much easier to paint me as an evil new atheist, isn't it?

[MADem]

70. You are just wrong. You want a discount? Here's a bulletin for you.

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/bulletins/2012-6_Bulletin.pdf

Print it out and go chow down. Read it, too, while you're at it.

There is no religious test here. You just have to cough up a piece of paper, and I provided you with one that will suit someone who eschews the Sunday sermon set.

[Swede Atlanta]

203. Bingo....

Boy Scouts, members of the Kiwanis, adherents to the Yoga lifestyle are not protected classes.

But one that conducts business, especially a business engaged in public accommodation such as a restaurant, are expressly prohibited to discriminating on the basis of religion (or irreligion for that matter).

The argument that well anyone could stop by a church and pick up a bulletin is void. That suggests that someone, in order to obtain the discount, must engage in an affirmative act of obtaining a bulletin and then presenting it to obtain the discount. This suggests that one must engage in an act that, on its face, purports to demonstrate attendance or engagement in religion over irreligion.

This is likely unconstitutional on its face. This could get interesting.

[MADem]

205. Sorry. No.

You do not have to go to a church to get a bulletin. You can get one online.

You can get one from a free thought (atheist) church...either in person, or online.

No religious test, here. No requirement for "attendance." The restaurant owner has said as much.

[xmas74]

228. You could possibly get one from someone in the parking lot at the restaurant.

Usually people eat out after church in groups and usually just one bulletin is needed.

Heck, you could probably say something like "I forgot to bring a bulletin" and ten people would hand one over.

Our local Country Kitchen has a bulletin offer every Sunday. They also have specials for senior citizens, law enforcement, college students, and military. They also have specials for students from different elementary schools on different nights.

I've noticed on the Country Kitchen special people telling the waitress that they don't have a bulletin and still getting a discount. The only reason for the bulletin is to draw people in.

[MADem]

235. I'll bet lying would work, too--but some don't want to lie, don't want to download one off the

internet, and don't want to swing by a church and grab one, and don't want to stray from their principles...but they won't download a free thought bulletin for fear of the waiter/waitress giving a crap about what their bulletin says (like the servers have time to read bulletins).

It's always something, I guess! I'd download one from that TX free thought church and stroll in there with a big smile! If the owner doesn't go to church, I'm betting she wouldn't find the choice of bulletin problematic in the slightest.

[xmas74]

236. If you ever really want one

send me a message sometime. I'll mail you a ton of them from my church. Our church recycles but I could see them cracking up about this use.

It doesn't say it has to be a local church or even the most recent bulletin.

[trotsky]

81. You do realize those are completely different circumstances, right?

Naw, I'm guessing your Christian privilege truly does blind you to the facts here. Continue to enjoy the society custom-made for your religion, and fuck everyone else.

[MADem]

82. Wow, a lot of assuming you're doing there--it's rather amusing how you

are pretending so earnestly to know so much about me.

There's no religious test with this discount scheme. But go ahead and play the aggrieved and persecuted victim if you'd like. It doesn't trouble me a whit that your conclusions are inaccurate but you plainly get something out of playing the Poor Pitiful Me card, so do have at it.

[trotsky]

86. If that's how you need to try and dismiss the concerns of a minority, so be it.

How very Christian.

[MADem]

87. There you go again--making assumptions not in evidence.

No wonder you have so much trouble--you invent scenarios to suit your worldview.

[trotsky]

90. I say there's plenty of evidence. n/t

[MADem]

92. I'm entirely sure that's not the first time you have been wrong. nt

[EvolveOrConvolve]

135. Certitude is a hallmark of the privileged

Just sayin...

[MADem]

157. You seem quite certain of that.

Just sayin...

[EvolveOrConvolve]

210. Touche

[Confusious]

27. A business has a right

It is after all, not discrimination based on something you can't change.

[Humanist_Activist]

40. Yes it is, Jesus, did they fail to teach about the Civil Rights Act of 1964 in your High School? n/t

[Confusious]

48. Atheists weren't a protect class

In the 1964 civil rights act.

[Humanist_Activist]

54. For purposes of law, yes they are, classified under "religion".

If you wish, I can look up the pertinent case law.

[ButterflyBlood]

76. And atheists can attend church too

You don't need to believe in what the church preaches to attend. In this case though they don't even need to attend, they can just obtain the bulletin without attending the actual service, or even just printing one off.

If there was a restaurant around here with a similar promo and someone asked me while leaving church for my bulletin because they were an atheist but wanted the discount, I'd have no problem giving it to them. Keep in mind that I've actually walked into church while listening to songs with atheism-promoting lyrics on my iPod, and was actually baptized in an Ampere shirt, Ampere being a band who are quite vocal atheists.

[Humanist_Activist]

78. The question is, why should they have to(to get the discount)...

do you understand how condescending and outright bigoted you sound right now?

[ButterflyBlood]

96. Why should I have to have worn shirt of a local band to get in free to a club a few weeks ago?

These type of promotions are quite common. Getting a church bulletin even without attending church is quite easier than getting the things needed for other ones.

[Goblinmonger]

99. Not. A. Protected. Class.

Read the posts on this thread and the other thread about the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Religion is a protected class. Band-Shirt-Wearers are not. It ain't that hard.

[cordelia]

106. But I thought atheism is not a religion.

Haven't you said that in the past?

But you say here that atheism is a protected class. So now it's a religion?

Which is it?

Is it a religion when you want it to be? When it serves your purpose?

[Goblinmonger]

118. *sigh*

The Civil Rights Act says you can't discriminate, among other things, on the basis of religion. Giving a discount to someone because they are of a particular, or any, religion is discrimination based on religion.

Why do so many theists have such a hard-on for trying to make atheism a religion? And why can't you just let go of your privilege for, I don't know, just a couple minutes?

[ButterflyBlood]

149. This is not a discount due to belonging to a religion

That would be if to get the discount you had to take some type of oath you believed in Christ or whatever. However you must simply bring in a church bulletin. There are atheists that do go to church (it's definitely not uncommon at Unitarian Universalist ones) and there are Christians that do not attend church very frequently. I did consider myself a Christian from ages 18-26 but the number of times I attended church during that time at best was the low teens. I've gone more times this year which is only half-way through than I did the previous eight together. I was thus being just as "discriminated" against as a non-church attending atheist.

[Humanist_Activist]

130. For fuck's sake, are the religious people on this thread being delibrately obtuse, or do they...

just hate atheists this much?

[cordelia]

143. I don't hate atheists, and I'm not religious.

Seems this guy is just willfully using his lack of belief as a religion of sorts so he can claim discrimination because this restaurant wants to drum up some extra business by seeing a church bulletin of some type.

I seriously doubt the restaurant owner dreamed up this marketing gimmick predicated on how many atheists she could piss off.

So, based on the ruckus raised by Mr. Wolff and the FFRF, it appears that atheism IS a religion whenever it suits some atheists' purposes.

[Goblinmonger]

145. So you didn't even read my response to you

or you didn't choose to address those issues.

Go ahead, keep thinking what you want and don't take one iota of time to understand what others are trying to explain to you.

[Humanist_Activist]

147. So atheists are not, to you, equal to religious people legally?

Basically that's your argument, are you going to stick to that bigoted and disgusting opinion or are you going to re-examine the argument you made.

[cordelia]

166. Of course atheists are equal to religious people.

And everyone else.

My opinion isn't bigoted. Disgusting is merely your opinion, an opinion I dismiss.

Let's summarize, shall we:

Gentleman thinks he may want to try a restaurant he's never patronized.

Researches establishment and finds offense in restaurant's promotional offer; claims it's discriminatory because a 10% discount is offered on Sundays for patrons bringing with them a church bulletin.

He doesn't want to abide by promoter's rules.

Contacts FFRF who intervenes.

Potential diner claims to be a member of a protected class - religion.

No religious test required - no prayer, no swearing of an oath. Nothing but a church bulletin; church/denomination unspecified.

So, atheism is treated as a religion - a protected class - when it suits. Even over something as pissy as a 10% discount on a meal at a privately owned restaurant no one outside the immediate area likely ever heard of. Until now.

[MADem]

199. Why are you assuming that the people who disagree with you are religious, or

subscribe to any type of faith?

Plenty of atheists think this complaint is stupid, too.

Get a piece of paper, get a discount. You don't even have to go to a church to get one if you don't want. You can get the paper on the internet, from an atheist church if you are compelled to maintain a principled stance.

[cbayer]

201. Because that is the blanket assumption that is always made here.

Even after people have been told differently, they still make the same assumption.

If you don't agree with and totally support a small group of members here, you are the *other* and the *other* is a religious believer.

[MADem]

204. I suppose that's as valid as "Because I said so."

This is not getting a lot of traction in the atheist community at large, despite the outbursts here.

There is no requirement to declare faith, accept Jesus, Muhamad, Buddha or anything of that nature. There's no requirement to even go into a church, if that's a problem for some.

Either print out a bulletin, or go on a scavenger hunt and grab one.

I'd be willing to bet that plenty of the people who scrounge up a bulletin to get that discount, even the ones who, if polled, will say they are religious, didn't attend a church service to get the piece of paper. The tires screeched, someone waddled into a vestibule, snatched up a bulletin, and the tires screeched away...it's Sunday gumbo time!

It's not like there's a "No Atheists Allowed" sign posted anywhere, or a "No shoes, No shirt, No religion, No service" sign at that restaurant.

Though I will admit I can't get very upset about some kinds of church-related "discrimination" (I'd be willing to bet this BBQ store owner's logic was based on their disruptive nature, not their belief system):

[MADem]

159. It is for the purposes of complaining about providing a piece of paper that is available on the

internet to receive a ten percent discount at a dining establishment.

Shorter version: "It is when we say so."

[Confusious]

154. Actually, they are

that's why I stopped responding. That, and the person who responded was a jerk.

A 1988 decision by a court added atheist to the protected religion class.

[PoliticAverse]

156. EEOC v. Townley Manufacturing, 859 F.2d 610 (9th Cir.1988)

http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/859/610/126324/

[bandersen]

249. not as "christian" as they make you think at townley

Funny how they have the devotionals and actually try to fire an employee for asking to be excused. This company is completely fake and needs to be exposed. I am married to a former employee of the great townley manufacturing company. He actually began his short career as a child. (yes, there were child labor laws in texas at that time) He is the stepson of the former manager of the New Summerfield plant in Texas. At 16 years old his entire life changed because of this so-called wonderful company. He was at work on a saturday and was put to work on a machine in the shop. His left arm was pulled into the machine and his brachial plexus nerves were ripped from his spinal cord. He is now paralyzed in his left arm and has horrible pain. His "parents" and i put that in quotations because I have my own feelings about them even deserving that title. His parents did not make sure his medical bills and future were secure so he is now 28 years old, no job, no education, fired from the company, and medical bills that can't be paid. Guess where his stepdad is, he is now one of the higher ups in the company. My husband had a bright future, he was amazing in basketball and already had college scouts looking at him when he was hurt. He is now depressed, in severe pain every day and in legal trouble because he has done anything he could do to try and put food on the table for his family. Where is this great "christian" company now? Well, Toro is in Florida living his life with his private plane and his pilot and enjoying the riches from his company. He doesn't even have the respect to return a phone call from my husband. Oh, and the job for life my husband was told he would have was taken from him when he took some time off to take care of our infant son that almost died from pertussis. Yes, you would think FMLA would have been offered but of course it wasn't. This is a horrible company and they need to be reprimanded for covering up an accident that wasn't even reported to OSHA.

[leftyohiolib]

112. they can just obtain the bulletin without attending the actual service. we, the kids that made up my

parent children, used to do this to prove to our parents that we went to church. we'd blow-off church goto mcd's get breakfast, take a 45 minute drive thru the valley then swing by the church. one of us would go in grab a bulletin, return to the car and go home with it.

[MADem]

73. Atheists can bring a church bulletin, too, if they'd like.

They can download one from an atheist church, like this one, in Texas.

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/bulletins/2012-6_Bulletin.pdf

This is not the only "atheist church" in the land, either and the concept is gaining in popularity. This is an idea whose time has come, apparently. Why shouldn't atheists have "fellowship" and services? See this article:
http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2000/07/Who-Said-You-Have-To-Believe-To-Attend-Church.aspx

[Scootaloo]

29. Ugh. I've worked tables on Sundays before

People fresh from service are the worst fucking tippers. I don't know how many napkins with bible verses written on them I've gotten as a "tip" from these fucks.

And church-going DUers, spare me your hand-wringing, please, I'm sure you tip 120% and help cook the food to boot. But I've never had you at one of my tables, apparently, so you don't count.

[madrchsod]

34. my wife`s hell was any women`s lunch in the places she worked ...

the worse one was a dollar tip from table of six

[trotsky]

3. Let's all laugh at the stupid atheists who are treated differently!

Ha ha ha!

"the prevailing self-righteousness that stems from religion"

Could have been written about this very forum. Good luck, Mr. Wolff, fighting against the pervasive hatred and bigotry toward non-believers. Even self-proclaimed liberals and Democrats join in the chorus with their conservative, right-wing brethen.

[Confusious]

28. I really wouldn't call a discount at a restaurant

"bigotry"

Makes you seem like a wackadoodle.

[skepticscott]

35. Would you react in exactly the same way

Last edited Wed Jul 4, 2012, 07:01 AM - Edit history (1)

if you were told that anyone who didn't have a church bulletin would get charged 10% above the listed price on the menu for everything?

[Confusious]

36. I usually don't go to restaurants that serve the Sunday crowd

But I have gone some places that have a senior or student discount.

never bothered me because I knew someday I would be one.

I guess you'll be up in arms about the senior and students discount in your next post, If this is a real protest for "civil rights" and not some petty little tantrum.

Just for the record, I haven't been in a church in 20 years and love Richard Dawkins, I just hate stupidity.

[Humanist_Activist]

41. So do I, so stop comparing this to legally NON-PROTECTED classes, but to for example race...

such as whites getting a 10% discount, that would be comparable, from a legal standpoint.

[ButterflyBlood]

74. No it's not comparable because one can not change their race

This is more comparable to the no doubt many businesses that offered a discount for wearing red, white and blue yesterday.

I know of lots of clubs here that have "college ID night" when you can get in for free with a college ID, and also clubs that offer free admission to anyone with a ticket stub from a sporting event the same day. I've never seen anyone challenge those. A church bulletin does not cost anything, and thus is even easier to obtain than it is to enroll in a college or buy a ticket to a sporting event.

[Humanist_Activist]

77. Again with these assertions with no basis in fact, I'm referring to LEGALLY PROTECTED CLASSES...

of people. Should I...type...slower...so...people...will...get...it?

[Humanist_Activist]

129. Should people be fired or hired at normal businesses based on their religion or lack thereof...

since you want to, or at least don't take seriously, the portion of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 I cited, might as well chuck out the Equal Employment and Opportunity section of it as well, am I right? To you, we atheists have no freedoms.

[pipoman]

208. What about lady's night at the local watering hole?

[cbayer]

209. Something tells me you are not going to get a lot of objection from privileged

straight men on that one.

[MADem]

38. Kids eat free!

Doesn't that discriminate against adults?

Military discounts, senior discounts, bring in a coupon from the newspaper you subscribe to, come in dressed as Spiderman and get a free burger at Carl's, Jr...it's a promotion. What's to stop someone from printing up their own church bulletin if they really want the discount? "Church of the Fluffy Pillow Welcomes You!" "Songs of Praise at the Barcolounger Stereo Cathedral!"

[Humanist_Activist]

42. Protected vs. Non-Protected classes of people, look it up please, before you make yourself look...

like a fool.

[MADem]

49. I don't think this lawsuit will fly, so we'll see who looks "like a fool."

You know, putting your insult below the subject line, in the message text, doesn't make it disappear. It does sort of reflect on your character. You actually can disagree without being an insult-flinging disagreeable individual. You might try it sometime.

The dining establishment is NOT requiring their customers to be religious, any more than Carl's Junior is requiring their customers to actually BE Spiderman (you get a free burger if you come in dressed as Spiderman today). Print up your own church bulletin from the Church of the Comfy Mattress, find one from an actual House of Worship online, grab one from the vestibule of a church on your way to the diner, or borrow one, if you want the ten percent discount.

You're jumping to far too many conclusions about what the owners of the diner actually are expecting of their customers.

[Humanist_Activist]

55. Again, protected versus non-protected classes...

Also I think the suit would be thrown out due to lack of standing on his part.

[MADem]

58. Well, if it will be thrown out, who wins? Not the complainant.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.

No one is required to be religious, simply to produce an item they can print out online.

[Humanist_Activist]

65. And that would be a possible valid criticism,

Comparing it to everything else you compared it too was just silly and showed a general lack of knowledge of the Constitution, Federal and State law.

[MADem]

66. You continue to fling insult from on high, because your mind is made up.

You don't want a discussion, you want to read your little proclamations.

Knock yourself out. Your words and attitude speak for themselves!

[Humanist_Activist]

131. Oh for crying out loud, you are the one arguing from ignorance, I'm trying, in my own...

insufferable jackassed way, to educate you, because I realize that being nice sure as hell wouldn't work. This has nothing to do with being open or closed minded, factually you are WRONG.

[MADem]

160. There you go yet again--don't like my POV, call me ignorant, insufferable, a jackass.

And you have the absolute brass to get shirty when you're the one who is being offensive!

No, I am not wrong. There is no religious test. If you have a printer in your house, you can get a ten percent discount at that dining establishment. You don't have to be a member of "the faithful" anymore than you actually have to BE Spiderman to get a free burger at Carls, Junior.

So sorry, you're the one who is wrong. And you're also continuing to fling insult with a deliberate goal of goading and provocation. It's unseemly.

[trotsky]

161. If you read the post a little more carefully, you would see that...

you were not called ignorant, the poster claimed you were arguing from ignorance. And they used "insufferable" and "jackass" to describe THEMSELVES.

It is clear you have nothing left factually to defend your position, and so now you are just flailing, hoping that some punch you throw out will land a strike.

[eqfan592]

162. Well said. (nt)

[MADem]

167. Yeah, that's how clever people who don't want to be called out on a personal attack parse their

remarks. This ain't my first rodeo, chum.

I have one fact left to "defend my position"--and it's not my position, it's just common sense that you ignore because you have a need to play the victim and argue, repeatedly, that people are being "mean" to you.

There is no religious test.

Two minutes with a printer and you have your discount. I've told you how to make it work. You insist that there's a waitress at the door checking for crosses and Stars of David hanging round customers' necks. There isn't.

Deliver a piece of paper you can get off the internet and you're getting that pancake special at ten percent off.

Or don't. Your CHOICE.

[trotsky]

168. What if I don't have a computer?

Keep insulting me if you need to, I understand how frustrating it must be to try and defend this discriminatory policy.

[MADem]

174. Then you should sue them for discriminating against the computer-impaired.

See how far you get. Or use your snazzy iPhone to pull up the bulletin and show that to the waiter or waitress.

There is NO religious test here.

[eqfan592]

169. You insist that there is somehow a difference between checking for crosses...

...and checking for other religious paraphernalia. There isn't. That's what you don't seem to understand for whatever reason.

[MADem]

175. Get a bulletin from the Church of Free Thought.

They don't care where the bulletin comes from--you can print one out from any "church" you'd like. There are scores of them online.

Fire up your own bulletin, if you enjoy the extra work, and that thrills you.

That's what YOU don't seem to understand, for whatever reason.

There is no religious test.

[eqfan592]

182. Your argument is that an easy test is no test at all. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. (nt)

[MADem]

188. Not a test. You don't have to be a Superhero to have a Spiderman costume.

You don't have to be religious to have a church bulletin.

[eqfan592]

194. poor analogy, for reasons that have already been stated. (nt)

[MADem]

202. Statement of fact: you don't have to be religious to acquire a church bulletin.

You can get one from an atheist church if you'd like.

You aren't being discriminated against, no matter how much you complain that you are.

No declaration of faith is required to obtain the discount.

[ButterflyBlood]

5. Silly complaint, you don't even have to attend church to get a bulletin

At mine they just hand them out at the door. It's incredibly easy to take one walking in and then just walk out another door. Nothing's stopping an atheist from doing that.

[Goblinmonger]

6. Why should they have to?

That's the point.

[MADem]

50. Why should someone "have to" dress up as Spiderman to get a free burger at Carl's Junior?

Answer--they don't. And if you don't want the discount, don't go to the trouble of acquiring the bulletin.

[Goblinmonger]

52. You really don't see the difference?

The church bulletin discount is clearly aimed at rewarding the religious and thus punishing the non-religious. Just because I "could" go into a church and grab a bulletin does nothing to change the intent of the discount. Discrimination based on religion is something that the government has said is a no-no. Discrimination based on wearing a costume for a movie that opens today is not something the government has said is a bad thing.

And as to a point you have made elsewhere, do you really think if I wrote a bulletin of the "Church of Fuck You God" on a napkin that this guy would give me my 10%?

[MADem]

60. No, it isn't aimed at "rewarding the religious." That is a leap of faith (snark) you make.

No more than a promotion giving a free burger to someone dressed up in a Spiderman costume is rewarding superheroes.

They asked for a bulletin, not a napkin with something scrawled on it. They don't demand that you be faithful or religious or have belief in a deity.

Here, let me make it easy for you: http://www.churchoffreethought.org/bulletins/2012-6_Bulletin.pdf

Take a good look at that bulletin, now. And take a REAL good look at the website from whence it came:

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/

The only people being discriminated against, here, are people without printers. Gee, I don't have one--I think I'll sue!

[Goblinmonger]

64. Yep, keep diminishing it

Keep telling those that are offended by this that they are just silly and that it isn't really a big thing.

Doesn't smell like privilege at all. Nope.

[MADem]

67. If you have a printer and an internet connection, you can get the discount.

That's not "diminishing," that's fact.

Get over yourself. There's no religious test.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

71. Yea Goblinmonger, "Get over yourself"

It's obvious that you're starting to act a little bit too uppity for some people. Duh!

[MADem]

72. You can get a discount too, with two clicks of your mouse and a printer.

There is no religious test.

I provided two links here in two separate posts, one religious, one not.

All you need is a piece of paper that fits the "church bulletin" bill. Name your poison, and print accordingly. You don't even have to sit through a boring sermon or terrible hymns.

[trotsky]

80. Yeah, because that's exactly what every atheist wants to do.

Print out what will be considered "atheist propaganda" and have themselves branded in their community. I know, atheists need to just shut up and quit complaining about such "trivial" things like being shunned in their community and treated differently simply because of what they (don't) believe.

Honestly, the nasty anti-progressive attitudes in here are despicable. No shame.

[MADem]

84. BRANDED in the community!!!! Alice the waitress will come to your table with a branding iron!

Please. Print out the religious one, if you want to stay "undercover."

You want the discount? They want a piece of paper. Fire up your printer and get to work. Otherwise, stop crabbing.

There is no religious test here. No one is going to ask you to quote from Bible or Qur'an, produce a baptismal certificate, or membership card. If you have a printer you can get the discount.

And calling people names like "nasty anti-progressive" because they aren't buying your arguments is probably as "anti-progressive" as anyone can get. "I don't like your argument, so I will insult you!" Yeah, that works a real treat.

Look in the mirror if you want an example of that "no shame" you decry.

[trotsky]

85. I will ask you what I asked s4p.

Why church bulletins? What do you suppose the reasoning is to require church bulletins instead of any other printed material?

Please put your incredible Christian privilege aside for a moment and seriously consider those questions, and tell me what you think the answers are.

[MADem]

88. My guess(es)? I would bet that their business is woefully slow on Sunday, and

there are probably a bunch of churches within spitting distance of their establishment.

Why do you keep making childish comments about "Christian privilege" when discussing this issue?

You don't know if I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian, an atheist, an agnostic, or something else entirely. I make it a point to not discuss my personal beliefs or lack of same here--so your effort to paint me into a faith-based corner is pure, childish pique on your part, a failed attempt to distract from the meat of the conversation because you are having a very hard time making your points like a mature individual, on their own merits. You really might want to think about how you approach people if you want to get better results from a discussion.

I am finding you a bit pathetic in this exchange--and I mean that in the original sense of the word.

[trotsky]

89. Fascinating how you are growing increasingly aggressive and insulting.

Anyway, I'll tell you why church bulletins were chosen:

Because "everyone goes to church."

Because "church is a good thing and people SHOULD go to it."

And on and on.

The same attitude that you display is ingrained in our religious society, and it contributes to anti-atheist prejudice and bigotry. We should be confronting bigotry, not excusing it or encouraging it or making fun of those it targets.

But that's just crazy "immature" me, I guess.

[MADem]

91. You continue to invent scenarios that suit your prejudices and biases.

I'm quite sure this diner owner gives a shit that people go to church--yes, of course... that's the utmost motivation here! And you have super-duper 'powers' then, to be able to read this person's mind?

There's absolutely no possibility that this business owner is interested in...oh, making a buck, in pulling in business on a slow day....no...he (or she) must have a NEFARIOUS goal in mind!

You know, I didn't say "crazy"--you did. I will buy your self acknowledged "immature" assertion, though, as your ability to spin fantasies with absolutely no evidence rivals that of a swooning teen with Bieber fever.

[trotsky]

93. It is from my direct experience in this religious society.

Why church bulletins? You never did really answer, and instead just continued your hostile assault on me personally. Good day to you.

[MADem]

176. Why Spiderman costumes?

I am being discriminated against because I don't like Spiderman and don't have a costume--I am going to SUE that burger joint.

[trotsky]

184. This was already addressed and dismissed.

Please try a new flailing move.

[MADem]

185. There you go again--using snark and rudeness to try to make a mark!

You might benefit from a Dale Carnegie course. You're entirely unconvincing with that attitude and argument.

[trotsky]

230. So to criticize me for "using snark and rudeness to try and make a mark,

you decide to use snark and rudeness to try and make a mark. Okey dokey.

[MADem]

231. Pointing out your rude conduct and offering a friendly suggestion at ameliorating your

inability to converse with others in a civil manner is not using "snark and rudeness," but if you want to take it that way, you go right ahead. It's clear that your interpretations of the comments of others are very unique, indeed.

[trotsky]

232. I understand your intention clearly.

It's your standard MO - you lose the discussion, so you turn personal. Take care, see you next time.

[MADem]

233. Well, your conclusions are thoroughly inaccurate, but nice talking to you nonetheless. nt

[Goblinmonger]

95. Then how about this: Sunday is 10% off day.

Don't need to show shit just show up and you get 10% off. THAT should increase traffic.

But, no, this guy wants you to show a church bulletin. Again, wade through the privilege for just a minute and see if you can figure it out.

And before you go all Spiderman on me, the point of that one is that Carl's doesn't want to give a free burger to everyone. Their traffic is just fine. They are getting something out of promoting Spiderman. This guy, according to you, just wants more people to come in on Sunday. If that is the case, then he could offer a blanket promotion to everyone that walks in the door. If he doesn't want the blanket 10% off he could offer 'gator fries for free or something else, but instead he asks for a church bulletin.

I'm with trotsky; sometimes liberal progressives just fucking disappoint me with what they stand behind and who they choose to dismiss in the process.

[ButterflyBlood]

97. There is a line between agreeing with what the restaurant does and thinking it should be illegal

Yes, the restaurant might be promoting religion. I've heard of other restaurants doing such things before, such as putting Bible verses on their napkins and the like. That is not illegal.

[Goblinmonger]

100. At least you are the first one to admit they are promoting religion.

But now that you have, it is a violation of the Civil Rights Act.

See, you need to learn from the other apologists on this thread and just mock the stupid atheists for complaining and say he is only trying to increase traffic on a slow day. NOT that he is promoting religion. Admitting that is, apparently, a no-no.

[ButterflyBlood]

152. They might be promoting religion, I don't really care

The owner might have another motive, perhaps they aren't religious but figure that by offering such a promo they can give some sort of wholesome God-fearing image that will bring in certain people not just on Sundays but other days. It really doesn't matter. Non-church bulletin holders are not a protected class in the Civil Rights Act. Yes there would be a case for discrimination on religion if people were required to recite some prayer or take an oath expressing believe in Christ or something along the lines to get the discount. That's not happening.

The Civil Rights Act of course does not prohibit businesses from promoting religion, and if it did, it'd be blatantly unconstitutional under the First Amendment. It does prohibit discrimination based on religion yes, but as noted above that is not what's happening here.

[MADem]

178. +1 nt

[Humanist_Activist]

136. What the fuck? So as long as its done to promote religion, discrimination should be legal?

And no, I'm not talking about Bible versus on napkins, that's not discriminatory, but what the subject of the OP is about is.

[ButterflyBlood]

151. No I'm saying it shouldn't be illegal because it's pretty minor and a common type of promotion

The club here that offers a discount to people with student IDs on one night might be discriminating against non-college students, but that's not illegal, nor do I see it as a big deal to make it so.

If this discriminated on religion, it would be illegal. It doesn't. If people were required to recite some prayer or take an oath that they were Christians to get the discount, that would be illegal. Giving a discount to people with a church bulletin doesn't do that. There are atheists that go to church (it's not uncommon in Unitarian Universalist ones, or various "ethical" or "free thought" type ones.) There are Christians that don't.

[MADem]

177. So now you work for Carl's, and you "know" their traffic is just fine?

You assume facts not in evidence.

Print out a bulletin from the Church of Free Thought and go get your discount, and stop complaining.

There is no religious test, but you want to claim "religious discrimination" nonetheless, because you believe that your religion (and it is a religion for the purposes of this discussion) is being discriminated against by this establishment, when that is not the case.

[Humanist_Activist]

7. Sounds like an open and shut case for discrimination...

based on religion or religious activities.

Its a business of public accommodation, and they have to comply with local, state, and federal anti-discrimination laws. This includes not giving discounts based on a religious activity, nor requiring people to commit what is tantamount to fraud or theft to obtain these bulletins to get the discount.

Would it be legal for me to have a restaurant and offer a 10% discount to anyone who would throw a holy book(Torah, Bible, Koran, Bhagava Gita, etc) in a shredder at the entrance to the restaurant?

I mean, I'm not discriminating based on belief, you could be a devout Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, etc. and still be allowed to eat at the restaurant, but if you want that discount, then some holy books have to be destroyed first.

[struggle4progress]

9. LOL!

... Wolff said he was .. considering eating there, but never did ... Prudhomme said .. she does not attend church ...

[Humanist_Activist]

43. What is so funny about my post, all I see on this thread is people showing their legal ignorance..

to perpetuate their own prejudices, nothing funny about it.

[2ndAmForComputers]

10. You laughers should wait to start laughing after the results of the complaint are known.

Just saying.

[rug]

15. I'll keep you posted.

Or you can keep track yourself.

http://www.phrc.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/phrc_home/18970

[raccoon]

12. I've seen restaurants making offers like that. Thought this was Columbia, SC! nt

[edhopper]

13. If it was

"Restaurant charges 10% more to anyone wearing a cross."

Not a problem, you can just take your cross off. No discrimination there.

[trotsky]

14. Just imagine the screaming meltdown. n/t

[struggle4progress]

16. The Maryland case was interesting

Facing bias case, team tries to rally Hagerstown Suns fight ruling on discounts for church bulletins

August 16, 1998
Todd Richissin,SUN STAFF

HAGERSTOWN -- ... Gimmicks are staples of the minor league world, and all the efforts in Hagerstown were going off without a hitch. Then the team called on the power of God to lure fans, and the trouble began.

Maryland officials have told the Suns that their weekly Sunday promotion -- which gives a discount to fans bearing church bulletins -- may be as illegal as spitballs and cork-filled bats. The deal for churchgoing fans may discriminate against atheists, the Maryland Human Relations Commission says, and God could be tossed out of the promotional ballgame ...

The dust-up began on Easter Sunday, when Carl Silverman, an atheist from Waynesboro, Pa., arrived at Hagerstown's Municipal Stadium to see the Suns take on the Piedmont Boll Weevils. The bulletin promotion, which had been going on for five years, was under way, as was Easter Egg Hunt Day.

Silverman, who has angered other believers with his diligence against the mingling of church and state, was offended. Fans presenting bulletins were allowed to pass through the turnstiles at a rate of six family members for $6, but Silverman had to pay $5 for himself and $3 for one of his children ...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-08-16/news/1998228095_1_hagerstown-suns-church-bulletins-promotion

Suns say church bulletin promotion loosely defined

June 30, 1999|By DAN KULIN /Staff Writer

In the third and possibly final day of testimony in the Hagerstown Suns Church Bulletin Days promotion discrimination hearing Wednesday, the Suns tried to reinforce their argument that the promotion isn't discriminatory because it is so loosely defined that anyone can take advantage of it.

Suns owner Winston Blenckstone testified that someone could simply write "nonreligious" on a blank piece of paper and that would qualify as a church bulletin.

Blenckstone said that a broad definition of church bulletin has always been in effect.

According to previous testimony from both sides, however, Waynesboro, Pa., resident Carl Silverman wasn't told of that option when he complained about the promotion on Easter Sunday 1998 ...

http://articles.herald-mail.com/1999-06-30/news/25147256_1_suns-carl-silverman-church-bulletin

`Church bulletin' discount is upheld
Judge OKs promotion by Hagerstown Suns

October 13, 1999
Todd Richissin,SUN STAFF

... In a ruling that surprised attorneys for the American Civil Liberties Union, an administrative law judge ruled yesterday that the Hagerstown Suns minor league baseball club can continue to offer discounts to fans bearing church bulletins ...

The ruling was unexpected because the Maryland Human Relations Commission had issued an opinion in July that there was "probable cause" to believe the Suns' promotion broke the law by discriminating based on religion ...

Important to the judge's ruling, the Suns testified at a hearing in June that the ticket seller placed an extra church bulletin on the counter and told Silverman he could use it for the discount.

According to the testimony, Silverman refused, proclaiming, "I am not a religious man." He then paid full price for his tickets. With that, the legal dispute was born ...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1999-10-13/news/9910130179_1_church-bulletin-hagerstown-suns-promotion

ACLU, baseball team settle church bulletin discount flap

Posted: Thursday, January 13, 2000

... Under the terms of the agreement, signed Tuesday (Jan. 11), the Hagerstown Suns agreed to extend the $2 price break to families who bring bulletins from any civic or nonprofit organizations. The ACLU agreed it would not challenge the discount promotion through state action or a federal lawsuit, the Associated Press reported.

Plaintiffs in the case argued the team's promotion violated laws against religious discrimination in places of public accommodation.

The case stemmed from a complaint to the Maryland Commission on Human Relations from agnostic activist Carl Silverman, of Waynesboro, Pa., who said he and his family were not given the $2 admission discount at a Suns game in April 1998 because they did not have a church bulletin.

The Maryland Human Relations Commission concluded in July 1998 that the baseball team's church bulletin promotion violated a state statute that bans businesses from discriminating on the basis of creed. But in October 1999 an administrative law judge ruled in favor of the Suns, noting Silverman had been offered an extra church bulletin by a ticket seller ...

http://amarillo.com/stories/011300/bel_baseball.shtml

[rug]

17. Good research.

The best precedents are based on very similar facts.

[Turbineguy]

56. I'd bring in

a Bulletin Bulletin Bulletin from Wonderful WINO in western Walla Walla.

[struggle4progress]

57. Maybe you could just run thru the Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television routine

I'm sure the Sunday brunchers at the Lost Cajun would get a charge from that

[cbayer]

18. Lots of people don't go to a service on Sunday - religious and not.

I don't really see a big problem here. It's just a marketing move.

I've been to places where you get a discount if you bring in your ticket stub from a ballgame or festival, or you are wearing the armband from such an event. A church bulletin would be even easier to get than those things.

Anyway, I don't think discrimination was intended.

[Goblinmonger]

23. Ticket stubs are different

because that is usually a deal worked out between the two businesses so that you get a package deal.

[Shadowflash]

32. As an Atheist

I agree.

I can't find it in myself to get worked up over this. It's like getting a discount if you are wearing green on St. Patty's day.

You've gotta pick your battles wisely.

Meh.

[dmallind]

19. typical and typically ignored exclusionism aside this is rather a silly complaint.

Discounts are granted for all manner of things available/of interest to some not others. Yes it's very typical for atheists to be excluded, but there's nothing stopping me offering discounts for anyone who can prove they have a knowledge of R.G. Ingersoll speeches if I wanted to.

[rug]

20. How much of a discount?

[dmallind]

24. well hell on the off-chance you need vintage fountain pen repair,. how about

10% off if you can tell me what he wanted just one of, and 20% if you can actually supply the stated need

[rug]

25. "Give us one fact for charity"

?

If that's it I need an old typewriter repaired.

[dmallind]

31. bit outside my milieu I'm afraid. Pens yes, MPs maybe. typewriters bit too mechanical for me. Sorry

[Renew Deal]

109. That's a funny exchange

[brooklynite]

21. Not a chance of winning

Essentially they put a discount coupon in the periodical of their choice. Nothing requires an advertiser in the Times to also publish the same discount in the Daily News. It's also no different than the local Pizza parlor offer 10% off to student with a school ID, or for that matter the Gym offering a corporate discount to people in my office.

More to the point, the discount doesn't require him to GO to Church, just to stop in a pick up a copy of the Church Bulletin.

[MADem]

214. They don't even have to "stop in" if they're unwilling or lazy.

They can print one off online; there are all flavors of faiths that publish online bulletins including none at all--a free thought church in TX publishes a bulletin online.

[struggle4progress]

22. Atheist files complaint over Lancaster County restaurant's church-bulletin discount (Patriot-News)

SUE GLEITER, The Patriot-News
Posted: 07/02/2012 2:49 PM

... Wolff, who said he's never been to Prudhomme’s, recently filed a complaint with the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission claiming the 22-year-old restaurant should not give discounts based on religion. “I bear them no ill will but they shouldn’t be pushing religion,” Wolff, 80, said ...

He said came across Prudhomme’s bulletin promotion while doing an Internet search of the restaurant, which he had heard good things about. But, he said the restaurant’s discount for church-goers annoyed him. “My interest is in social justice and tolerance, and I get a little annoyed at all the religiosity,” he said.

Wolff said he was born a German Jew and was a devote Catholic from age 10 to 16. He said he became an atheist about 15 years ago when he became dismayed at the religious right.

He said the complaint against Prudhomme’s isn’t as much about the actual discount as it is the bigger picture of what his happening in this country. “I’d just be happy to bring this out in the open and get people to reflect a little bit,” Wolff said ...

http://mobile.pennlive.com/advpenn/db_/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=qGbllnZt&full=true#display

Facts: (1) Complainant self-reports that he encountered the promotion while surfing the web but has never even been to the restaurant. (2) Complainant asserts that he considers that the restaurant should not push religion, and that he feels annoyed at self-righteous religiosity.
Analysis: (1) Complainant can have no material basis for complaint -- and hence no standing. (2) Complainant simply cannot demand government prevent others from pushing religion, nor can complainant demand government shield him from views he finds annoying.
Conclusion: Complaint gets tossed.

[rug]

30. You're probably right. But what a life he's had.

Born a Jew in Germany in 1932. Catholic from 1942 to 1948. Then what? Was he in Germany during the Third Reich? Was his religion a shield from the Holocaust? When did he come to the U.S.? In 1997 he's disgusted with the religious right and declares himself an atheist.

I'd love to talk to him. He sounds much more substantial than this discount complaint.

[MADem]

223. I wouldn't be surprised if the religion was a shield to get him out of there.

He may have been a refugee. I knew a fellow of the same circumstances with a similar experience, from Austria. He was a bit older and has passed away. Madeleine Albright was another one who acquired a 'religion of convenience' as a consequence of the war.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/08/news/08iht-catholic.t.html

What do Fidel Castro, three founding members of the Jesuit order, Saint Teresa of Avila and Cardinal Jean Marie Lustiger of Paris have in common with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright?

A Jewish background.

Wars, pogroms and inquisitions have often driven Jews out of fear or conviction into the arms of Christianity or Islam, many to conserve their customs in secret over centuries.

Mrs. Albright, who was raised as a Roman Catholic and later converted to the Episcopal Church, has said she discovered only recently that her family in Czechoslovakia was Jewish and that more than a dozen relatives, including three grandparents, were killed in the Nazi Holocaust. She was 2 when her parents escaped the Nazis.

[Renew Deal]

116. I love that quote

“My interest is in social justice and tolerance, and I get a little annoyed at all the religiosity,”

The intolerant preaching tolerance.

[madrchsod]

33. well that`s not going anywhere.....

http://www.opentable.com/prudhommes-lost-cajun-kitchen

[2ndAmForComputers]

47. I don't get it. That's just advertisement of the place.

No mention of promotions.

[humblebum]

37. Nothing stopping the atheist from going to church to get a bulletin. I'm sure

there are other atheists who attend church.

[2ndAmForComputers]

46. Indeed there are.

Just like there are gay people who marry the opposite gender.

In both cases, it sucks majorly. (Noticeably less so in our case, yes.)

[MADem]

61. An atheist can print one out at home from an atheist church.

This church puts out regular bulletins, they're very jazzy-looking, too:

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/

They don't even have to get all offended by going somewhere that doesn't suit them--they just have to wander over to their printer and pick up a piece of paper. How onerous is that?

[eqfan592]

163. If only that made a lick of difference.

Which, of course, it doesn't. But that won't stop you from posting it over and over again.

[MADem]

164. We're talking about a ten percent discount at a restaurant. That's the topic of this thread.

Your problem is solved with a printer and two mouse clicks--but you refuse to take "yes" for an answer.

You want to discuss your perception of persecution. That's a different thread.

[eqfan592]

183. Thanks for completely avoiding the argument I was making.

Just serves to prove my point even further.

[MADem]

190. I'm not "avoiding" your argument. I'm telling you plainly you have no case.

I've been quite clear--you assert persecution where there is none.

You're not even close to making a point, or a case. I don't mean that unkindly, but you are unable to prove that you have been singled out or excluded in any way.

Fire up your printer and go chow down.

[eqfan592]

192. LOL! You have failed to demonstrate how this isn't a religious test.

Until you do, you have no leg to stand on.

[MADem]

206. Well, actually, I have. Your attempt to distract with a "LOL" doesn't cut it. nt

[yellowcanine]

101. Putting in the "choose your battles" file...........

Some battles are not worth fighting. Don't eat at the restaurant. They probably have Bible verses, etc on the wall which are just going to upset your stomach.

[MADem]

213. The owner said she does not attend church.

I don't think the "Bible verses on the wall" thing is a sure bet.

[yellowcanine]

102. And sometimes at the ball park you get a discount coupon for a meal at restaurants.

I don't really see the difference......

[Renew Deal]

103. Is this any different than free tacos for people with a basketball game ticket?

Nothing is stopping him from going to the church to get a bulletin.

[Goblinmonger]

105. Yes. Protected Class

The expansion on that point is in several places as well as a separate thread in Religion.

[Renew Deal]

107. Link?

Who is the protected class in this case? Anyone can get a church bulletin. You don't have to attend church. In many ways it's less restrictive than basketball/taco option where you have to pay for a ticket.

[Humanist_Activist]

140. It can be interpreted as extending privilege to churchgoes while placing a burden on non-churchgoers

which is showing favouritism to a religious practice. Seems pretty simple here, why the fuck its so hard for many of the religious folks here to understand, I understand, and am appalled at.

[PoliticAverse]

155. Suppose a business gave a 10% discount to anyone wearing a cross ?

You can make a cross in 2 minutes with scissors and a piece of paper.

Would that be legal ?

How about to anyone wearing 'star of David' ?

How about to anyone _not_ wearing a cross or 'star of David' ?

[MADem]

215. Nope. There's no requirement that the bulletin be from "your" church, and no religious test.

There are even bulletins available online, from churches of all faiths as well as no faith, for the folks who don't want to climb stairs to a vestibule.

Click, print, eat!

[Pab Sungenis]

104. The Quizno's next to our movie theater used to do this.

One of my staff complained, so I had an idea.

The following week, he went into the place with a "bulletin" I'd helped him lay out and let him print on the theater's equipment from his preferred faith: the Church of the Subgenius.

Another staff member went in with a bulletin from the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Then we started handing out "Church Bulletins" from various faiths at the theater, including The Church of Beavis Christ, the Church of Elvis, the Rintellites, and so on. It became a fun pastime for some of my staff members to write up bulletins, lay them out and print them in my office, and have them for customers who wanted a discount at Quizno's.

The restaurant stopped doing the bulletin promotion shortly afterward. Especially because two of my staff members (who actually belong to the Church of the Subgenius) said they would be willing to sue if their bulletins weren't honored.

This is the proper approach to defeating this kind of bigotry. And if they refuse to accept a bulletin from a religion they don't recognize then it proves that it's illegal religious discrimination.

[Renew Deal]

108. It would be stupid to not honor the bulletins

They do this promotion to get business. If paying customers show up, then great.

[cbayer]

110. That is exactly the point. They want business.

They don't care where the bulletin comes from or whether the person presenting it actually went to a service or not.

This is one of the greatest non-issues I have ever seen here.

Lots of christians don't go to church. My observant Jewish friends go to services on Saturdays. There are atheists and agnostics that attend UU or other kinds of services.

I see no discrimination here or reason for complaint other than to paint oneself as a martyr.

[trotsky]

113. Why not just offer a discount on Sundays to everyone?

That would drum up business even more. Why is the church bulletin necessary?

And I'll ask you another question - one that no one wants to answer, for obvious reasons: what if the owner only accepted Christian church bulletins, and not anything from a synagogue or mosque? Would you be so dismissive and disdainful toward Jews and Muslims who complained? I mean, they can just stop in a church on the way over and pick up a bulletin, what's the problem, right?

Of course, no one here has claimed to be a martyr. That's just your little special straw man to again dismiss the concerns of others.

I would really appreciate some answers to my questions above, but I understand if you will choose not to respond. They might make you have to reconsider your thoughts on this issue.

[Pab Sungenis]

115. Well, in our case

we were already regular customers. It was the joint next door to our workplace and the natural place to grab lunch or dinner on your break.

[Goblinmonger]

119. Then why even require the bulletins?

If you want business, then just give the discount. Why bring religion into it?

[Renew Deal]

122. Maybe they think the local church is an untapped source of business.

They can set up promotions for anything. I don't see it different than Early Bird specials, senior discounts, club discounts, etc.

[Goblinmonger]

123. So pay a few bucks

to put something in that church's bulletin that Sunday is 10% off day. Then you aren't making it about religion and still getting the word out to them.

The fact that it would be so damn easy for him to do anything else than require a church bulletin makes it pretty clear that this isn't just about increasing business. At the very least we have a pretty solid example of religious privilege.

[MADem]

234. I think they are trying to generate a pattern--and maybe they DO advertise in the bulletins, as well

Who knows? Or maybe they don't. Since the owner does not attend church, I'm betting on the latter.

I think they are trying to grab customers from traffic they see going by their restaurants, to and fro, anyway. They hope that the custom of going to their restaurant will become entrenched in the people who are headed to church anyway, rather like the custom of stopping by the 19th Hole for a few pops after a game of golf has become entrenched as a custom amongst most foursomes on a golf course.

If you repeat a behavior enough, it becomes a tradition.

"Ten percent day" doesn't establish the whole "scavenger hunt" attitude. It's also no "bargain" if everyone gets it. People want to feel like they're getting a "better deal," not the same deal as everyone else. They've got to have a piece of paper to get the bargain. They can get that piece of paper off the internet, from an atheist free thought church or a UU church with a free thought component if they'd like, or if they don't care to go to church or get one from a vestibule of a nearby church, but no matter how they get it, they have to have a piece of paper.

It's a coupon, essentially.

[MADem]

216. Targeted marketing, perhaps?

Do some of those bulletins in those storefront churches sell a bit of ad space in the back?

Maybe they are trying to ID neighborhoods (by church) where they can wander around hanging doorknocker menu ads and sticking flyers under doors?

[leftyohiolib]

111. atheists have poetry on a high school gym wall removed cause it said our heavenly father

and they fall all over themselves high-fiving each other, now 1 restraunt has a discount for the religious and the atheists are fuming. over a discount of 10%.
"I did this not out of spite but out of a feeling against the prevailing self-righteousness that stems from religion, particularly in Lancaster County," translation "i did it out of spite". he probably had no interest in going there till he saw the discount sign

[Goblinmonger]

120. Wow. You really hate minority rights, don't you?

I mean, seriously, go read some of the rhetoric about blacks in the 60s and tell me how much different what you are saying is. Or gays. Oh, sure, give those blacks an inch and they want a mile. You know that's the same argument your making.

[Green_Lantern]

114. frivolous lawsuit

It is the business owner's right to give discounts to who they want. They aren't refusing to serve anyone.

[Goblinmonger]

121. OK, Maybe you'll answer the scenario nobody else wants to.

What if that business person said it had to be a Christian bulletin. Jewish and Muslims need not apply. Would you be defending him, then?

What if that business said the discount was for whites? Or whites and blacks? Still defend him? Because discrimination on basis of race AND religion are both covered in the Civil Rights Act of 64.

[Green_Lantern]

124. this discount didn't exclude anyone based on religion since

Anyone can get a church bulletin.

[Goblinmonger]

125. So if it had to be a Christian bulletin, you'd be fine with it?

Nothing from a synagogue or a mosque.

[Green_Lantern]

126. unless the intent was target a

Group for discrimination.

[Humanist_Activist]

133. So extending privilege to one group at the exclusion of others isn't discrimination? n/t

[Green_Lantern]

165. well if the discount was for Christians only it would be but

I see this case as equivalent of putting a coupon in the bulletin.

At any rate the people filing the lawsuit need to get a life.

I'm agnostic myself.

[amuse bouche]

117. 10 % discount isn't enough for me to care

Now if it was 'buy one get one' then I would state my concern with management

Don't mess with my BOGOs

[DBoon]

127. Does the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster have Sunday services?

If so, would bringing a bulletin give me a discount on the holy pasta?

[Kali]

128. interesting

you can get a Mormon discount at two businesses I know of locally - posted right there for everybody to see. I am POSITIVE you can discounts elsewhere with the secret handshake.

I don't go to either business because of it though so they lost at least one previous customer. One was a pretty good little restaurant, the other a laundromat.

What would be the thoughts if a business gave a white discount?

[Humanist_Activist]

132. Don't go there, you'll get a shitload of Christians from this thread jumping down your throat...

mostly arguing with absolutely no knowledge of the law, morals, or ethics.

[Kali]

137. this is (yet another) one of those cases

where I clicked on a thread in the latest page without noticing it was not new (not sure I like this milestones thing) or what forum it was in. Just caught my eye because of the experience in my post.

I read the thread and tend to agree with the minority for the most part. While I can see the point that the case is somewhat trivial, I find it a little offensive when majority-status people try to declare what minorities should feel.

[cbayer]

138. Please point out the shitload of Christians without knowledge of morals or ethics

who are jumping down your throat.

You can't, because it's not happening.

There has been disagreement with people weighing in from both sides despite their beliefs or lack thereof.

Just because some disagree with you doesn't lead to your ugly conclusion.

[Humanist_Activist]

139. Oh please, they make trivial comparisons that have nothing to do with the issue, then claim...

that we are the ones that are close minded because we have this little thing called FEDERAL LAW that EXPLICITLY states that shit like this is illegal. Hell, I even made an OP that links to the law itself, and while its old, its still enforced.

[ButterflyBlood]

150. I doubt this is the first restaurant in 48 years to offer such a promotion

If this is so much in violation of the Civil Rights Act you certainly could provide at least one example of business being blocked from doing it because of it.

I should ask my atheist attorney friend what he thinks of this. I'm sure he'd find the idea this is in violation of the Civil Rights Act to be absurd.

[pipoman]

225. This case is not a violation of the law...

or the Civil Rights Act, hell, it's not even a case..it is a complaint to a regulatory body...even if it was a violation the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen to the restaurant is for them to be told to 'quit it'. You do have it right however that this violates YOUR morals and YOUR ethics...now you wish to install your morals and ethics on others....hmmm, now what other group does that sound like?

Your silly notion that people who disagree with your silly claims of civil rights violation are a band of roving evangelicals beating up on the poor Darwinist are insulting...but you knew that..

[dimbear]

141. Here's the evangelical take on the case.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pa-atheist-files-complaint-against-restaurant-over-church-bulletin-discount-77619/

Read thru to the comments. Unlike our liberal site, where the natural tendency is to defend the underdog, they are rather hateful.

[Humanist_Activist]

142. I don't see much difference between their religious folks an ours, reading through the comments...

is like reading through this thread. They are just slightly more open about their contempt. I would say that site is made for our Christian "friends".

[Goblinmonger]

146. This one seems to say explicitly

what many in here are saying with a little bit more jury friendly tone:

holdenmonty1 FollowerMute
8:20 AM on July 05, 2012
since its a hometown resurant isn't it considered a private business and they don't have to abide by ignorant hateful people that find anything and everything to complain about...

[PoliticAverse]

153. "A store is offering a discount or promotion for bringing in a church bulletin. Is that legal?"

From the Freedom from Religion Foundation: http://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/church-bulletin-discounts/

Often FFRF will receive complaints from members that a private-owned business in their area is offering a discount to customers who present a church bulletin. These “church bulletin discounts” show up as promotions at a variety of businesses including restaurants or grocery stores for anyone demonstrating their status as a believer or church attendee.

These types of promotions are illegal under federal law. The Civil Rights Act states in relevant part, “All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation . . . without discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.” 42 U.S.C. §2000a(a). As a place of “public accommodation,” it is illegal for restaurants, grocery stores or other businesses to discriminate, or show favoritism, on the basis of religion. Church bulletin discounts are restrictive promotional practices, which favor religious customers and deny customers who do not attend church, and nonbelievers, the right to “full and equal” enjoyment of the restaurant, store or other business.

Church bulletin discounts may also be prohibited under your state’s civil rights law, or your city’s municipal code and ordinances. Often, the state and local laws contain similar, if not the same, language prohibiting discrimination at places of public accommodation on the basis of religion.

Any promotions should be available to all customers regardless of religious preference or practice on a non-discriminatory basis. No place of public accommodation can advertise– in broadcast (radio or television) or print advertisements (newspapers, church bulletins, etc)– any sort of discount to customers who present a church bulletin. Rather such promotions must be offered to the public at large, and not single out any one religious group. For example, instead of offering a “20% discount to customers with church bulletins on Sunday,” a restaurant could advertise, “20%off Sunday brunch.”

An article on the 'bulletin discount' case from 1999: http://articles.herald-mail.com/2000-01-11/news/25110677_1_bulletin-carl-silverman-suns

[Warren Stupidity]

179. Bus company offers front of the bus seating rights to people who affirm a belief in god.

Any problem with that?

[rug]

187. Yeah.

It's a stupid analogy.

[eqfan592]

193. If by "stupid" you mean appropriate and fitting, then i agree completely.

Nt

[rug]

195. No, I meant stupid.

And rather insulting to Rosa Parks.

[Warren Stupidity]

196. Stupid and insulting? Wow.

Well if you say so, I have to agree, you are an authority on stupid and insulting.

[rug]

197. I have encountered much of it, Warren.

[MADem]

200. The restaurant isn't asking anyone to affirm anything. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

218. I didnt say they were.

I proposed a somewhat different scenario. One that is more clear. Ok for the bus company to give preferential treatment to those who affirm a belief in god?

[MADem]

224. No one is asking for anyone to affirm anything in this situation.

No declaration of belief is required. All that is required is a piece of paper, that you can get online or at a church. Pick the flavor that suits you--Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Atheist. You can find it all on the internet--two clicks and you've got your bulletin.

Easier than Coupon Suzy.

[Warren Stupidity]

227. Im sorry you dont get why they are very similar.

It has been explained to you repeatedly just how offensive this sort of stuff is to non-christians and non-believers. "Easier than Coupon Suzy" is insulting trivialization of religious discrimination.

But I proposed a different scenario, a hypothetical. I did not claim it was identical, I asked if it was ok with you if a bus company seated god affirmers in the front and everyone else in the back.

You cant seem to answer the question.

[MADem]

229. There is no "Freedom From Offense" law or regulation. Vote with your feet if you are offended.

But don't try to insist that what these people are doing is illegal. It is not.

There is NO religious test. You can bring in a bulletin from any church--even an online atheist one. They are not saying that you have to present the bulletin from Saint Imelda's or The Baptist Backass Church of You're All Going To Hell.

Your scenario sucks as an attempt at analogy because you are demanding a declaration of faith (god affirmers). This promotion does not demand that anyone "affirm" anything. One more time--there is NO religious test.

You can get your bulletin from an atheist church in two clicks of a mouse. Like Coupon Suzy, only easier.

[ButterflyBlood]

220. That would be illegal religious discrimination

This is not the same.

[Warren Stupidity]

221. But front of the bus seating for a church bulletin would be ok?

[dtom67]

226. interesting but less than a scandal....

I can see where the guy is coming from , but you'd have to be a pretty big a-holio to file a complaint about it.

Besides never-ever piss off someone who serves you food.

Could you go back and order from the restaurant after filing the complaint?

" I'll have a cheese omelet; hold the mucus, pubes and rat feces please!"

right.

[struggle4progress]

237. ... The co-owner of the restaurant, Sharon Prudhomme told FOX43 numbers are down on Sundays

11am-4pm and the discount is simply a marketing tool. She says she's not promoting religion. In fact, she says people can log on to a church website and print a bulletin without visiting the place of worship. She says she will also accept bulletins from other establishments including mosques and synagogues. "Folks go to church," said Prudhomme. "They're already dressed up nice. Well, what better thing to do than to go out and let someone else do the cooking" ...

Manheim Township man files claim against Lancaster County restaurant
Manheim Township Man Files Complaint with the PA Human Relations Commission over Church Bulletin Discount
Amber Miller
Multimedia Journalist
4:15 p.m. EDT, July 11, 2012
http://www.fox43.com/news/wpmt-mainheim-township-man-files-claim-against-lancaster-county-restaurant-20120711,0,255410.story


Do be sure to notice that Wolff says: "It's against the common wisdom that if you go to church that you're a better person. That's my only point." IOW: his complaint is not intended to remedy any alleged discrimination against him, but is simply a ploy for making some other point

[trotsky]

238. Why have you ignored all the questions put to you above,

only to further bash and berate those who have a problem with this practice?

Why aren't you listening to atheists who are opposed to this stunt, and instead dismissing their concerns with contempt?

Isn't this group supposed to be about dialog and learning from each other?

[struggle4progress]

240. Restaurant flooded with support after atheist complaint

By JOHN HILTON
Daily Record/Sunday News
Updated: 07/16/2012 06:53:28 PM EDT

... The owner of Prudhomme's Lost Cajun Kitchen in Columbia said she has received thousands of emails from around the world since a Manheim Township, Lancaster County man filed a discrimination complaint against her restaurant ...

Prudhomme has also received several offers for pro bono representation from area attorneys. She selected two and expects to meet with them this week ...

For the past two weeks, Sundays from 11 a.m. to 4 p.m. has done very well, Prudhomme said ...

Prudhomme said she began offering the discount a little more than a year ago. She said she has offered all kinds of discounts or incentives at various times, including some to senior citizens, early-bird diners, children under 12, people who shop at certain other Columbia businesses and even Columbia High School students.

http://www.ydr.com/business/ci_21086800/restaurant-flooded-support-after-atheist-complaint

[struggle4progress]

239. Further information:

The restauranteur may have somewhat changed POV. And a rightwing law center seems to be involved.

... In late June the restaurant was served with a 16-page complaint from the state of Pennsylvania, accusing her of discrimination ... Prudhomme said ... a representative from the state suggested that she should compromise and sign an agreement that she would offer discounts to any civic organization in the town. "I said, 'Wait a minute -- you're asking my husband and I to give anybody coming through my door a discount?'" she recounted ... "We have utility bills, payroll, mortgages and they're expecting me to give everyone a discount?" ...

Restaurant church discount draws investigation
Posted on Jul 9, 2012 | by Todd Starnes/Fox News & Commentary
http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=38231

... the Independence Law Center ... is representing the restaurant owners ...

Atheist annoyed by churchgoers, files complaint
Russ Jones - OneNewsNow - 7/10/2012 4:30:00 AM
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=1628436

The Independence Law Center is affiliated with the Pennsylvania Family Institute ...

http://independencelaw.org/about/

... the Pennsylvania Family Institute ... has worked to defeat gay rights initiatives ...

Gay activists vs. Chick-fil-A
The restaurant chain is under fire for a connection to a group that opposes gay marriage. Is the company being dragged into a fight where it doesn't belong, or do its policies make it fair game?
POSTED ON FEBRUARY 1, 2011, AT 3:50 PM
http://theweek.com/article/index/211629/gay-activists-vs-chick-fil-a

... Sarah Palin has been booked for the Pennsylvania Family Institute's annual fundraiser ...

08-03-2010, 10:28 AM
http://www.talkpa.net/showthread.php?13874-Sarah-Palin-booked-for-the-Pennsylvania-Family-Institute-Fundraiser

[dimbear]

241. Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission opens investigation per rightwing site:

http://www.examiner.com/article/state-investigating-restaurant-for-church-discount-after-atheist-complains

I don't claim for a certainty that they have the name of the entity correct. This is obviously a rightwing source, they only are repeating it to decry it.

So, at least our savvy restaurant owner is being served some sort of letter of inquiry. She's reaped a whirlwind of support from our nation's oppressed Christians. Let us hope that the press of business she derives from catering to privilege and simulating victimhood doesn't overwhelm the wait staff.

[rug]

242. That's not really new.

The PHRC received a complaint. They sent a letter to the restaurant asking for a response. That's the extent of the investigation. The PHRC still has to find probable cause to proceed. I don't think they will. In other news, the restaurant has indeed been busier and the owner's gotten offers of pro bono legal representation.

BTW, re your comment on "oppressed" Christians, in this story it appears to be the atheists who are complaining about being "oppressed".

[dimbear]

243. The other news is what counts. The restaurant is rewarded for its actions, at least so far.

Not the first time wrong actions have been lauded, at least at first. Of course Christians in this country are only oppressed in their own minds, we all know that.

[rug]

244. By reward, I assume you refer to increased business as a result of the bulletin discount.

As far as being oppressed only in their own minds, there's a lot of that going around.

[dimbear]

246. Increased business as a result of her being called out by a nonbeliever.

Christian privilege was threatened and the wagons were immediately circled.

She faced a fundamentally moral question. Should she continue to favor the majority in the face of complaint by a tiny and weak minority which was unpopular to boot? Should she face down the weak few and go with the strong many? Or should she give in to the still small voice of fairness far in the background?

Doesn't seem to have been a hard choice. Perhaps if demographic trends continue as they seem to be going, these questions will become harder to answer in the future.

[rug]

248. "She faced a fundamentally moral question."

This is not Sophie's Choice.

[struggle4progress]

245. My post #239 suggests that the owner was touchy about the complaint at first, and that a rightwing

litigation tank had lined up to help her. But my post #240 shows the owner later was much less touchy, indicating a range of alternatives for "church bulletins" (including what diners might print out themselves online), and indicates the owner plans to meet with two local lawyers promising pro bono defense. So the story may be evolving

I have no doubt, based on my experience in the South, that some people can be assholes to atheists, and a case of genuine discrimination against atheists in public accommodation should be successfully litigable IMO. But last I read, the complainant here never attempted to patronize the establishment and filed his complaint to make some sort of point about self-righteousness. Now, self-righteousness is certainly annoying as hell -- but anti-discrimination laws exists to fight discrimination, not in order to allow folk to score points against others whose POV annoys them

[dimbear]

247. Self righteousness, principle, what's in a name?

The comments sections are again quite revealing. Almost uniformly against the hateful atheist.

I am trying to guilt by association you folks. I realize that's not excessively noble, but hey--this is the religion forum. Logic takes strange turns.