Religion
Related: About this forumFather James Martin on Jason Collins: Loving means accepting a person as God created him
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/01/father-james-martin-on-jason-collins-loving-means-accepting-a-person-as-god-created-him/Father James Martin praised NBA player Jason Collins in glowing terms on Wednesday for becoming the first active professional athlete to come out as gay. His comments provided a sharp contrast to the chorus of Christians who have publicly denounced, downplayed, or dismissed Collins sexuality.
There are many times that Catholics are called to support their gay brothers and sisters wholeheartedly, he wrote on his Facebook page. This is one of them. All of us are created by God, and all of us have an undeniable and unassailable human dignity. And part of that dignity is accepting that you are a beloved creation of God.
Martin noted that coming out was often a difficult process that was rife with psychological distress and interpersonal conflict. But he said accepting ones sexual identity was necessary for spiritual wholeness.
The public honesty of people like Mr. Collins may be especially important to gay and lesbian young people, who sometimes experience a deep sadness and crushing isolation around their identity, he continued. As most of us know, they are far more likely to consider suicide, thanks to the often overwhelming social pressures that they face.
LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)Its good to see priests like Father Martin rather than bigots like Bill Donohue.
Further, he could recieve payback for taking that stance making him that much braver. Bravo
okasha
(11,573 posts)He's willing to speak truth to power.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)is that it's fine to be gay, but you just can't be in a committed, sexually active relationship. I.e., the same old "Love the sinner, hate the sin" crap we see from so many religious types.
While this priest's message of tolerance is fantastic, I see nothing that deviates from the RCC party line, unfortunately.
rug
(82,333 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)only good gay is a lifetime celibate gay. Doesn't help that your church treats it as a disease or disability, so to be properly condescending and "sympathetic".
rug
(82,333 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)treat homosexuals and heterosexuals the same, but are discriminatory and bigoted.
rug
(82,333 posts)If you paid attention at all while you were in "your" former Church, you'd know it disapproves of sexual activity by anyone outside a sacramental marriage. Maybe that position had a hand in your departure.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)choice, etc. When it comes to your church, I oppose damn near everything your church stands for, for a reason, most of what it stands for is evil, barbaric and primitive.
rug
(82,333 posts)Your posting style resembles it closely.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)engage in passive aggressive horseshit. It's his intellectual stock in trade.
rug
(82,333 posts)Feel free to talk to me directly, scottie, if you have anything to say.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)flinging veiled insults and smears. Why not try being direct yourself, instead of slithering?
Go ahead...say what you really meant in post 16...if you have the courage and honesty to.
rug
(82,333 posts)These posts are better suited for a circle jerk behind closed doors for like-minded people.
There's nothing productive about them.
How's that?
Don't forget to post the results of your alet.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)That's not remotely what you meant when you said this:
If you paid attention at all while you were in "your" former Church, you'd know it disapproves of sexual activity by anyone outside a sacramental marriage. Maybe that position had a hand in your departure.
I meant hand in an entirely different sense.
But keep lying, ruggie..Jesus loves you for it.
rug
(82,333 posts)No one loves you for it.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)you and your ilk don't.
I can live happily with that.
rug
(82,333 posts)Go play now.
Response to skepticscott (Reply #20)
Post removed
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)"it disapproves of sexual activity by anyone outside a sacramental marriage"
PLUS
"it doesn't accept marriage of same sex couples"
THEREFORE
"it demands that gay people, unlike straight people, be lifetime celibates."
If there's something wrong in the above logic, kindly point out what.
rug
(82,333 posts)See if you can find it.
It absence creates a third sentence (not mine) which does not follow.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)The missing word is important.
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)All you have to do is google "catholics against gay marriage".
rug
(82,333 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)"By their deeds you shall know them" and all that.
rug
(82,333 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)Yawn.
rug
(82,333 posts)2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Being gay is fine as long as you don't have sex. Historically, the RCC has implied that the proper course of action for a gay man is to become a priest so that celibacy will "solve" the problem.
georges641
(123 posts)For any unmarried person, according to Catholicism.
It's not easy to be a catholic. It requires discipline and denial. We are called to "carry the cross," and not be ruled by sexual desires.
I've never heard that gay men are supposed to become priests. Do you have a source for this assertion?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Heterosexual couples have the option to "legitimize" their sexual relationship via a sacramental marriage. Your church does not, and does not intend to, provide this option to homosexual couples. I believe this is wrong and bigoted. Progressive Catholics seem to just shrug their shoulders and continue to toss money in the collection plate.
Here's a link to the information you requested:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gay+men+are+supposed+to+become+priests
Response to trotsky (Reply #37)
Post removed
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That much, anyone can understand.
And what's obvious to everyone else who isn't busy trying to desperately defend it, your church IS a political organization that actively seeks to influence policy in governments around the world.
I'm sorry you don't like having to deal with these realities, but at least I don't have to call you names to make my point. I guess Jesus wants you do to that?
The bottom line is, as a homosexual male in the Catholic church, you can't have sex outside marriage, and you aren't allowed to get married, so logically being a priest has been encouraged. I have no idea how many priests are homosexual, nor do I think that has anything to do with the horrible levels of pedophilia in their ranks. But the fact remains that the only way to remain a Catholic in good standing if you're a gay man is to be celibate.
And a "progressive" Catholic is someone who believes themselves to be politically progressive but chooses to continue giving their time and money to one of the largest institutions actively working AGAINST the progressive agenda.
georges641
(123 posts)I called you an "ass" because you behaved like one with that link. If it was meant to be a joke, then, sorry, I shouldn't have said it. I probably shouldn't have said it anyway, though.
No practicing Catholic may have sexual relations outside of marriage. There are many "restrictions" on heterosexuals as well. No pre-marital sex. No adultery. No abortions. No use of contraception. No masturbation. No going to strip clubs or watching porno movies. ETC.
There are many heterosexual Catholics who cannot have sexual relations because they are single and cannot find a partner, are divorced and cannot get remarried, have an illness that precludes it, or simply choose to be celibate. I have lived many years as a celibate married heterosexual because of an illness. It's a challenge, but not the end of the world. There is so much more to life than sexual gratification, and from a Catholic perspective, the world puts that high on a pedestal as if it is a god.
But yes, you are correct, for the homosexual Catholic, there is no alternative but a life of celibacy. That in no way means that homosexual males would be more inclined to be priests, though.
If you understand the totality of Catholicism, you understand this concept and accept it, hard though it may be to live it out, though EVERY Catholic has their own particular crosses and struggles. If you're on the outside looking in, then you're seeing the issue out of context and through the eyes of politics, and doctrine is of God and not according to where our passions would take us.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Homosexual Catholics are not.
No one has to understand the "totality of Catholicism" to recognize that this is inherently unfair and bigoted. That's certainly within the right of your church and its parishioners to be so, but the rest of us get to call it as we see it.
georges641
(123 posts)But my explanation would be deleted.
So I'm afraid you'll continue to be in the dark, but the upside is you found a way to justify your anti-catholic bigotry.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)and you're OK with that, but I'm not. And I'm the bigoted one.
I have a feeling I know why your explanation would be deleted.
rug
(82,333 posts)ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)I new that my progressive views didn't fit in with the Catholic Church and I never could be there. I could follow Jesus or follow the Vatican hierarchy, but not both. I made my decision, and it was one of the best I ever made. Rather than lie and pretend to be a "progressive Catholic" and belong to the same organization as you, and give tacit approval of the disgusting bigotry so far away from the message of Jesus you and the Vatican promote, I voted with my feet.
Meshuga
(6,182 posts)Why should two consenting adults suppress it?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It's all about control.
And I kind of (emphasis on "kind of" feel sorry for someone who suppresses natural and healthy human feelings for the supposed "well-being and salvation of our souls" since that is all done in vain.
Not that I think people should be irresponsible about sex (we should all seek a healthy sex life caring for our health and respecting our partners and ourselves) but why pay such a huge price as not living life and fully enjoying it responsibly?
Giving up your autonomy to a non-responsive invisible being is absurd.
okasha
(11,573 posts)to the priesthood, this mirrors the change from within that trnsformed the Episcopal Church. It will be interesting to see how far the RCC follows the pattern.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Maybe the bishops should listen to their priests.
okasha
(11,573 posts)who have been ahead of the curve for decades.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)they wouldn't still be members and supporters of a medieval organization.
georges641
(123 posts)Being "heterodox" is not to be "ahead" in any way. The Catholic Church exists to save souls and not to cater to the whims and desires of anyone. We are a fallen and broken people with inordinate proclivities and desires. The job of the church is to help transform us and help us dominate our passions, not to validate them.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Gee...from the ranks of those same priests, by golly. What does it tell you about the deep culture and mindset of the RCC when things get more conservative and intolerant, and not less, as you go up the ladder?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)georges641
(123 posts)The Catholic Church is not a democracy and you are using political terms.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Not all priests do as the Vatican says. They have free will.
georges641
(123 posts)If they do, then they are heretics and/or schismatics, and no practicing Catholic should pay any attention to them. They should be shunned and their bishop should be informed and pressured to removed them.
Let them start their own religion if they like. They are free to do that. But it is wrong for them to go against Church doctrine and present it as if they are speaking in the name of the Church.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Following every rule the church makes is boring.
So boring that it gets one booted out of a group. So it was nice knowing you in the Catholic group, and I expect my loyalty to Catholicism will likely get me booted off the entire board, so if I suddenly disappear, it's not because I ran away from a discussion. And thanks for your civility towards me.
But the rules wouldn't be there if they were not important.
And sadly, it is so much more than "rules," but the rules are there for our well-being and salvation of our souls--not to make our lives miserable.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Did the hosts say you were booted.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Good riddance to an anti-gay bigot.
hunter
(38,326 posts)And for the same reason.
The saddest thing to me is that his anti-gay bigotry, his quest for an absolute authority, and his obsessions concerning sexual "purity" seems to be the force that brought him into the church.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I will wear it as a badge of honor.
Definitely some issues with that one, though. Disturbing.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Said the church could not make mistakes. Could not think for himself.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Why not just bring out the grill lighter?
I hate to break this to you, but some of the most progressive Catholics I know are Jebbies and Marists.