Just a thought....

[Spitfire of ATJ]

[cbayer]

1. Cool! You managed to get Jews, Christians and Muslims all in one shot!

[muriel_volestrangler]

2. Nevertheless, the stories told about Abraham do show him to be a dick

Willing to kill his son, sleeping with his servant and then banishing her and their son when he gets a son with his wife, pretending that his wife is his sister, so that the people giving him sanctuary get trouble when they think they can marry her ... the only 'redeeming' thing about Abraham is that he does what God tells him. Like circumcision, and the willingness to kill his son.

If you wanted a holy book with examples of just good moral behaviour, then Abraham wouldn't appear in it.

[rug]

3. Imagine what they'll think of us in 4,000 years.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. I'd hope they won't be holding a dick up as a paragon of virtue (nt)

[rug]

5. What you consider a paragon of virtue now, they likely won't.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. But the Abraham character is a dick now, and yet he's still in the book over 2,500 years later

I'm not saying that they thought he was a dick when they wrote the stories in the first millennium BC; I'm saying he's an obvious dick now, and yet he's still held up by some as admirable. And no-one revises the book, even if they secretly agree he's a dick.

[rug]

7. What is or is not dickishness changes over time.

If he was not considered a dick then, it's important to know why not. Just as it's important to know why he's considered a dick now. That's more productive - and more honest - than revising it with the times.

[trotsky]

8. "the only 'redeeming' thing about Abraham is that he does what God tells him"

And that right there was the first big commandment point from a primitive religion. Obedience.

The second one being, of course, that the priest will tell you what god wants you to do. You won't be able to figure it out on your own!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. That's also assuming there really WAS a "god" involved and he wasn't crazy or lying.

[trotsky]

15. The "gotcha" being that we have absolutely no way to tell the difference! n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. Had to add this...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

11. You could say Abraham started a chain of events that led to more deaths than anyone else in history.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. I find it hard to believe anyone really thinks he existed unless they insist all the bible is true

The details of his 'life' are absurd; but even the idea that one person was the known source of a religion a good thousand years before any archaeological evidence of the society starts, and about another 400 before they wrote it down, and he wandered around the sites they knew but then their ancestors went to Egypt for a couple of centuries, they came back, and they could identify it all, is just a transparent justification for why those particular people were 'given the land by God'. An idea some people still try to use.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

24. The OT is a conglomeration of popular myths from many cultures and a few facts....

There are times it reads like someone threw together two books into one in the same storyline.

What gets me is the city of Troy was considered to be a myth amongst serious archaeologists because it wasn't mentioned in the Bible.

[dimbear]

81. One detail strikes me as very realistic. Sarah dies (Genesis 23) far away in Canaan.

She apparently took a runout powder, as they say.

In view of Abraham's ways, that's credible.

[cbayer]

91. You crack me up sometimes, dimbear.

[dimbear]

100. I love Bible verse time.

Especially the less trodden paths.

[rug]

43. You could but you'd look ridiculous.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. Ever meet someone who can't wrap their head around the idea of someone not believing in Jesus?

[hrmjustin]

51. Yes I have.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. Weird,...isn't it.

[hrmjustin]

64. Yes i would say it is werd and can be annoying.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

68. Especially if you were raised to believe everyone is equal. And they come off as superior.

[cbayer]

72. So, let me ask you this - do you think that believers are equal to you

and those that share your POV?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

74. That depends. The GOAL is Peace On Earth. Some think to get there they need to kill.

[cbayer]

76. Is what you are saying is that you feel superior to those who

feel the need to kill?

But what about believers in general? Do you feel superior to them?

Can you wrap your head around the fact that some people believe sincerely and are good people who share your goal of peace on earth?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

87. No, I'm saying those who feel the need to kill feel superior when they're not.

[cbayer]

89. So you haven't answered my questions about whether you feel superior to believers.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

93. Not at all. I know it's cultural.

[hrmjustin]

77. Do you think most Christians kill or think they need to kill?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. Some do. They feel they are in a war with the secular world.

[hrmjustin]

92. Unfortunately we have members of our faith that have commited violence in the name of God, but most

do not believe in that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

94. It's when someone believes they are the instrument that things get freaky.

[hrmjustin]

95. Yes but that is a very small amount of the population.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

98. Considering how VAST the population of religion types there are even a fraction percent is too many.

[hrmjustin]

99. I agree.

[hrmjustin]

73. We believe that all are equal.

I admit throughout are history many Christians did not have the same view.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

78. Many now claim that's Commie talk.

[hrmjustin]

79. Maybe in RW circles but not here in NYC.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

84. That's because you can't play Davy Crockett in Central Park.

[rug]

83. Rarely.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

85. NYC is multicultural so people are exposed to different ideas.

[hrmjustin]

9. I find this rather offensive.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. You wouldn't if you were an outsider.

[cbayer]

12. What's an outsider? And do you speak for all of them?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. Do you speak for all insiders?

Because if you do, we could settle this whole "religion" thing between the two of us for all time.

One question before we start,...should we charge for tickets?

[cbayer]

19. What makes you think I am an insider?

And what makes you think I spoke for anyone but myself?

I have no wish to "settle" this whole religious thing. I wish for tolerance and greater understanding between people who see the world differently.

Your OP was meant to offend, wasn't it?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. No. It was meant to provide a unique perspective.

[cbayer]

21. It's not a unique perspective.

It's a perspective shared by many anti-theists and could, not surprisingly, be offensive to jews, christians and muslims all in one swipe.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

25. Most Christians don't even know who Abraham was.

[hrmjustin]

27. How do you know that?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. Ask them. They know Adam and Eve and the only reason they know Moses is the 10 Commandments....

....and Charlton Heston,...who also battled the apes.

[hrmjustin]

33. All the Christians I know, know who he is.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. Try the ones at Walmart.

[hrmjustin]

37. I think Christians who read their ible know who Abraham is. He is a rather central figure in the OT.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. The Bible is a PROP to many of them. Something to wave and thump....

The really SAD thing are the ones that watch a Right Wing TV preacher who alternates between Bible passages and articles from World Net Daily.

[hrmjustin]

42. I would say many people use the bile as a sword and they should not.

[cbayer]

30. That's because Abraham is not the central character in their religion.

Jesus is.

So, what's your point?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

36. There really is such a thing as "blind faith". Some even take PRIDE in it.

[cbayer]

39. Agree, because that is the basis of faith.

You can't prove it but you still believe it.

That's not always such a bad thing.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

41. It is when you claim people who think are a danger.

[cbayer]

45. Who claims that people that think are a danger?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

46. Do you even KNOW anyone who drives an SUV?

[cbayer]

48. What does that have to do with it? Of course I do.

What do you drive?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. "What do you drive?"

People crazy.

[cbayer]

60. Lol! Well, I'm glad you returned to the thread.

We seem to be kindred spirits in that respect.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

63. I'm dealing with things on this end. Laundry, scrubbing floors...

....and a lady freaking out and crying about Boehner saying Republicans want to cut Social Security and Medicare.

[cbayer]

70. I'm trying to stay out of the blazing sun, keep my queasiness at bay

and listening to some batshit crazy teabagger debate Howard Dean on the radio.

[trotsky]

28. Your perspective, that all faiths and religions are equal and valid...

is DAMN OFFENSIVE to millions of Jews, Christians, and Muslims. (As would be your lack of capitalization of proper nouns.)

Mote, eye, plank, own... figure it out, cbayer.

[Southside]

53. Thanks for your response, woke me from this twilight zone

I was spiraling into darkness until I read your post. Felt like I was ambushed by darkness till you turned on the light. From now on I will stay out of the religion threads or only read threads that have been rec'd. Wow this thread caught me off guard.

[cbayer]

58. What exactly did you find enlightening?

[rug]

86. Every time I read his posts I feel a bright light of clear unbiased logic.

I am grateful.

[hrmjustin]

88. You are welcome to post in the religion group as much as you want.

[skepticscott]

23. Yes, we all know very well

that you have no wish to "settle" anything, because that would mean deciding that some people's worldview is much closer to the truth than others, and that all opinions, beliefs and "faiths" are not equal in their connection to reality.

There is no way to promote "greater understanding" between anyone without fostering agreement on what is true and what is not, what is real and what is not. That's the most important "common ground" and the best way to for, "coalitions" for people or groups to work towards "common goals" that you can have. Despite your claims to want those things, you still can't grasp that they won't happen in any meaningful way if people follow your philosophy of everyone being right, and every opinion being equally valid.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. We are going to have conflict as long as we have an urge to have kingdoms....

The whole notion of a mighty kingdom having dominion over all is the shit that keeps the species in a perpetual state of war.

[cbayer]

31. We are going to have conflict as long as one group thinks they are

right and everyone else is wrong.

That includes believers and non-believers.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. At least Christians are mellowing....

It wasn't that long ago when you would run into Christians who claimed if you didn't believe in their brand you MUST be worshiping Satan.

Oh hell, we STILL have that.

I just heard someone recently claiming Christians pray to the sky and Muslims pray to the ground so that means Allah must be the Devil.

[cbayer]

38. You are right, they are still around.

But there is a growing interfaith movement that takes a different tack and there are more people who are taking the position that there is more than one way.

Interestingly, some of these interfaith groups include non-believers and "spiritual but not religious" folks.

These groups are supporting liberal/progressive causes and speaking up for each other. You can see this particularly among younger people.

There will still be bigots and those that wish to destroy the other, but I'm rooting for those that see the commonalities and can put aside the differences.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. What I see in young people is questioning why they need to keep this stuff going...

As far as interfaith groups and supporting Liberal causes,...I'm old enough to remember when a kindly old minister would say we have a responsibility to care for God's beautiful creation. That was back before the Right Wing infiltrated the church and replaced the guy who used to march with the environmentalists with the guy who claims God put all the oil and trees there for us to use.

[cbayer]

47. Some are, others are not.

Religion is here to stay. It will change, but it's not going away.

Things were indeed better before the RW infiltrated and took over.

I'm old enough to remember when we changed the course of history during the civil rights and anti-war movements. Much of the change came from interfaith coalitions that included a variety of believers and non-believers.

And I have "faith" that we can take that hill back.

In order to do so, we will have to be careful to differentiate who share our values and who does not. When all believers are painted with the same brush, that doesn't happen.

I would ask that you consider that, as the believers that post here probably share many of your values.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

50. Religion is facing rejection due to it's dogma.

[hrmjustin]

52. I can say my parish has plenty of younger people.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

57. As a percentage of the population the numbers are falling.

[hrmjustin]

61. Religions need to speak to the times they are in.

For me I think my faith sustains me through this life.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. Now all you have to do is get them to end hunger worldwide.

[hrmjustin]

67. Religion is not going to solve that alone.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. The money they raise could....

Damn shame a chunk of it is going towards guys who call themselves "Doctor" and wear business suits.

[hrmjustin]

75. I believe that members should decide where the money goes.

I agree that some TV clergy get paid too much but the reality is most churches the clergy do not make money at all.

And Christians do help to feed the hungry.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

80. I've volunteered at a Lutheran food bank.

[hrmjustin]

82. Great glad to hear it. We have many Epicopal food banks here in NYC. We also help LGBT homeless

youth in our parish.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. There needs to be a purge of the con men who treat religion as a money maker.

[hrmjustin]

97. I agree.

[cbayer]

54. So will anti-theism if it keeps going in the same direction.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

56. That kinda goes back to the "Atheism is a religion" nonsense.

[cbayer]

62. I've never made that claim, but dogma is not confined only to religious belief.

[hrmjustin]

65. That is very true.

[skepticscott]

69. Baloney

That one sentence beautifully highlights how wrong you are in your whole posting philosophy here.

We have conflict because people think that how deeply felt and fervent their belief or "faith" is has anything to do with how true it is (the hallmark of religiously based thinking), rather than basing the strength of their convictions on the strength of the objective evidence supporting those convictions (the hallmark of the skeptical, rational thinking that serious and intelligent people base things on).

Conflicts are settled by reaching greater and greater agreement on what is really true, based on the accumulation of more and more evidence, not by whiny folk saying "Nyah, Nyah, you can't prove I'm wrong, so I'm just as right as you!!" It happens in science all the time. That's why you don't have thousands of sects of scientists, each doing their own thing and each thinking they're just a little bit righter than all the rest. But not in religion, because the people there think that faith should trump evidence, and that their beliefs need have no rational connection to reality.

[hrmjustin]

16. I still find it offensive. But i will move on.

No big deal.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. Whew,...certainy glad the whole "burning heretics" thing has fallen out of fashion.

[hrmjustin]

29. Ok.