Any other Jews having moral qualms about remaining a part of DU?

[abq e streeter]

The ever increasing prevalence of oh-so-piously and /or indignantly denied anti-Semitism here without a peep about it from Skinner on down (that I'm aware of anyway), has certainly made me feel like I no longer belong (and in fact, already spend less and less time here, and almost never post anymore).Even just a few minutes ago, one of the first (and so far only) responses to a post about a racist attack (oops, in DU land, it's not racist...I mean golly gee, Israel is worse than the Nazis, so what do you expect?) on a young Jew in France has been greeted with a predictable nice big yawn, (in fact a literal "so what" by one poster)....at least no "yeah but Israel/The Palestinians blah blah blah" hasn't popped up yet............Yet...
I'm no supporter of many of Israel's policies, and no fan of Netanyahu nor any right wing government anywhere, but I'm pretty fucking sick of that thinly disguised yet universally denied racism, and wondering how others here feel about remaining a part of a community where it seems pretty clear that anti-Semitism is the one and only form of racism that's apparently acceptable?
Thank you for listening.
abq

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. Have you ever been out of the US?

The American people get blamed all the time for what our government does in our name, and rightly so because we don't stop them. Same with Israel. I rarely see anti-Semitic comments on DU, but I completely agree with comments against their leader's actions toward the Palestinians.

[abq e streeter]

2. If you rarely see anti-Semitic comments,

you need better glasses.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. False analogy, but a perfect example of what "abq e streeter" is discussing.

All Americans are from the United States or have citizenship.
All Jews are from Israel or have citizenship.
All Israelis, from Israel or with citizenship, as Jews.

The first sentence is factually correct. The second and third aren't factually correct. Therefore, your statements,

The American people get blamed all the time for what our government does in our name, and rightly so because we don't stop them. Same with Israel.

is a false analogy, but is often used, and usually in regards to anti-Semitic statements. Attacking a synagogue in Paris because of the actions of Israel is anti-Semitism, on two levels and not "protesting" the actions of Israel. A few people, IMO, are "critical" of Israel because they are anti-Semitic.

[marybourg]

3. Once the left started identifying with the poorer darker Palestinians

as against the middle-class Israelis , the die was cast.

Older, more experienced people may be able to draw a subtle line between anti-Israel and anti-Jewish. Younger people, with which this forum abounds, are unfamiliar with the genesis of Israel and are unable to make the subtle distinctions. And, of course, as the rhetoric increases, it no longer is politically necessary to make distinctions between Israelis and Jews. You can shout out once in a while against what you read here, I can, someone else can, but the indignation delegation has the easier, cheaper job and are going to out-post us every time.

I used to keep the most persistent anti-semites on "Ignore", but we don't seem to have that anymore, so I just mentally ignore them. It seems to me that if you're going to continue associating with liberals, you're going to have to develop a modus vivendi for getting along with the current liberal world view. Mine is to occasionally shout out and mostly ignore. I also read Jewish sites with Zionist sympathies once in a while for balance. But I am old and very mellowed out. And I have a certain amount of sympathy with Israel's situation. Your accommodation must reflect your life. Best of luck.

[abq e streeter]

5. Ignore is still available,just click the name of the offending (offensive) poster...

It's aright above where it says "profile information"

[Mosby]

6. Posting at DU is a mixed bag for me.

Last edited Thu Feb 7, 2013, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)

It's sad that the Progressive movement has almost completely embraced false anti-Zionist and anti-Israel narratives, which tend to bleed over into outright Antisemitism. This makes it especially difficult to discuss issues regarding Israel, Zionism and the Arab/Israeli conflict with these false narratives so prominent.

So I end up disengaging from the "anti-Zionists" a lot and post in other groups.

My opinion of DU has changed a lot in the past 9 years I have been posting, I think the mod system was much better dealing with bigotry than the current jury system.

[Meshuga]

7. My participation has been very limited...

...since the implementation of the new DU system. The old moderation system was better at catching the ugly stuff.

So, in the fewer times I participate, I usually go to groups/forums where the stuff you mentioned is not likely to occur. That way I don't waste my time with it.

[King_David]

8. It makes me take long posting breaks.

I wonder what Democratic party reps think of it.

[ellisonz]

9. It's always going to be there...

...doesn't mean we can't alert the crap out of it.

Aloha.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. And watch those alerts fall flat on their faces!

[ellisonz]

11. I like to play the odds.

[abq e streeter]

12. This is a large part of the reason for my OP

Not so much that they'll always be there, but that they're deemed to be perfectly acceptable by a majority of randomly chosen (and presumably representative) DUers.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. It is extremely problematic.

Though, recent events have convinced me in some cases it is just religious bigotry, and not Jews specifically. I can attest to, however, that a number of anti-Semitic posts get by juries, especially if "Zionist" or "Israel" are used anywhere in the post. If I remember correctly my first three alerts were about anti-Semitic posts and all of them stood (though 2 of the three assholes are now history). It is amazing watching people excuse anti-Semitism.

[abq e streeter]

14. Excuse and self righteously deny...

I am wondering if a communication with Skinner about these concerns would be worth our while. I do remember him once stepping in to say that Ahmadinejad IS a Holocaust denier and that statements to the contrary were no longer acceptable.or whether it's even worth the bother at this point. Thank you, and also to the others who've replied, for taking the time to join this conversation.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. It is always worth a try; better than nothing, I suppose.

I am glad you spoke up. I wish more would join because I know for a fact a number of Jewish posters are feeling unwelcome and are afraid to speak out. Maybe we should go to PM and discuss, and I would be open to others joining. What do you think?

[Betsy Ross]

16. Thanks all for this thread.

I have a tough time with the issue here too. Mostly I just cringe and look away. I appreciate everyone who does post a response to anti-Semitisim.

[abq e streeter]

17. More from our lovely DU friends...

From this A.M.:


Why don't you create your little Zionist paradise on your own dime?

[abq e streeter]

18. A serious question to the 398 people who read this but chose not to reply...

Not that I have an ego hang up on not receiving replies, but just curious. With 400 + views and just 7 others posting a comment, does this mean that maybe most of you don't see this as a problem here? And am I overreacting to what I perceive a being blatant anti-Semiitsm on DU (and in some of the left in general) ? Seriously,I would be glad to receive feedback on this.
Thank you,
abq

[Behind the Aegis]

19. The number of reads is VERY misleading.

To be fair, that number is overinflated. Every time someone posts, it "counts" as two reads. Every person who posted, likely came back and read a few responses...more "reads." I really wish it only registered one read per person to give a more realistic idea of the number of people who actually read threads. I have visited this one thread probably 20-30 times, and each time it registered as a "read."

I do wish more would chime in, but I have been contacted via PM and some are afraid to say anything, some just don't want to be "aggravated". Completely understandable given the nasty comments we see. I will say for those reading this, if you are concerned, but don't want to be "outed," you may PM me or "abq e streeter". I understand not everyone may feel the same, and this is also OK, but if you do, and you are hesitant to comment, you have another option; though, I will say, please speak out, you have support here.

[abq e streeter]

20. Thanks.

Didn't realize that about the "seen by" count.The "don't want to be aggravated" is definitely understandable. But of course that's one reason I'm doing this,; I'm tired of being aggravated by supposed progressives whose posts read like they're straight out of the John Birch Society or KKK of bygone days and who post their thinly disguised racism as "anti-Zionist" with complete impunity, knowing they'll probably have more supporters than critics here. .The afraid of being outed I understand less, but still of course respect those who feel that way. Rather a sad commentary in and of itself that DU members are afraid to be "outed" as Jewish or as people who recognize a racist dog whistle when they hear (or read)one.
Thanks again,
abq

[stevenleser]

25. Some of those reads were me.

I've complained about these exact things a number of times but nothing much has changed.

If anything, it, along with the recent anti-catholicism blow-up has been an interesting exercise in understanding why certain progressives cannot get their particular brand of leftism to gain much traction. They are much better at venting anger at people (some deserved, some not) than building coalitions.

[freshwest]

33. You're not overreacting, but like several problems, I've quit responding because of the vitriol.

Last edited Fri Apr 12, 2013, 12:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Some contend the I/P trouble is all racist. Others need a bone to chew and believe all official talk is a lie except the truth they've chosen. The bankers are evil meme is a symptom and they will not be allow anyone to point any fallacies.

Looking up the source of the 'banksters' meme leads to Israel. They say it's not because they are Jews. Just that they are rich, powerful and sneaky and suddenly the Protocols and Holocaust denial pop up in the material. Really, I hoped people were not going to be fooled by this again.

The sources can't be admitted because they know they will be banned. It's a shame we don't have a place to discuss both sides without fanaticism. I don't feel comfortable posting here to avoid the poisoned I/P forum, as I am not Jewish or religious, and this in the religion section.

[MrBig]

21. I agree it's a problem

I've had an account at DU for awhile, though I post only rarely. Still, I've found myself coming to the website less and less simply because I've tired of any foreign policy or foreign news article related to the Middle East (or even not related to the Middle East) being swarmed by anti-Israel posts that have very strong anti-Jewish rhetoric associated.

What I found very frustrating were the Chuck Hagel threads where all of the old "Jews control the world" conspiracies seemed to be permitted and supported by members.

I've almost completely stopped going to the Israel/Palestine forum discussions simply because I get frustrated just reading the posts.

[ellisonz]

22. It's true.

I generally stay out of I/P for that reason.

You can always post here!

[Mosby]

23. Should be interesting to see how ATA goes.

Personally I think the admins should have tried tweaking Meta first before throwing it out. The call-out threads were absolutely ridiculous, why not just make a firm rule about that? Skinner weighed in on the topic with an OP but did not institute a rule about it.

I think one consequence of this decision is that meta discussion about DU is going to move to other web sites just like in the past though maybe that is not a concern for the admins. Judging from the number of threads and posts Meta was one of the most active groups on the site and I imagine that it could have been pretty embarrassing for the owners.

I like the idea of allowing hosts to participate in ATA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. It is not jut anti semitism

The same personal, false equivalency attacks are now leveled at Catholics, some of whom are leaving.

I brought the issue to ATA, and was received with a big meh.

I don't give money to this site, the bully, harassment, and anti several groups s well...tolerated.

Won't say I will leave, but my ignore list is filling up between gun nuts and bigots.

[meti57b]

26. I completely agree with you!

I keep reading "this is a liberal/progressive message board", yet they cannot accommodate Catholics or people who support the nation of Israel. I think they are just showing off to each other how "progressive" they think they are.

I'm a Jew, "mostly Kosher", but when I was a kid, I sang in the choir at the local Catholic church. The service was in Latin and we sang in Latin. It was so o o cool! Both parishioners and clergy were really nice folks!

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. What needs to happen, in my view, is a donor strike

Until money stops flowing...

[MrBig]

28. I thought the same exact thing reading those Anti-Catholic threads eom

[MrBig]

29. More stupidity

It's sad when I read a poster say that the entire country of Israel is a military facility (and thus fair game for a justified retaliatory bombing) because...and I think this poster was serious...all civilians in Israel are "human shields", and "Israel knows it. Why do you think they pay Jews to resettle there?"

I feel dumber having read that individual's comments. I alerted the post and the vote came down 3-3. Only comment voting to keep it said that "there is no rule that people can't express views that this particular alerter finds ridiculous" - though I'm pretty sure the "Terms of Service" state that "crazy talk" and "conspiracy theories" are against the rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. There is always that level of stupidity.

What is really amazing is that type of bigotry gets a pass or excused or minimized. "Israel" really brings it out in a number of people. President Obama being given the highest honor in Israel warrants "he gets a trinket, they get billions." And, that is minor compared to other comments when the "evil" Israel is mentioned. Take a gander at the "Israel digs up Obama's tree" thread. The other problem is that anti-Israel bigotry (regionalism) can sometimes get confused with anti-Semitism; from both ways. However, it doesn't excuse the Nazi references, the "chosen people" references, and a plethora of other examples that cross from anti-Israel to anti-Semitism. Hell, even the random "anti-Semitism isn't really about Jews" shit gets spewed here and it is, IMO, a form of anti-Semitism because it is a way to delegitimize discrimination and hate against Jews.

On a side note, the TOS are not used by many people to determine "community standards," which is what is the 'standard' for adjudicating posts. This is "approved" by the admins of the site. It doesn't make a lick of sense to me, but that is the way it is.

[MrBig]

31. Thanks for that Explanation

For someone like me who lurks more than posts, I haven't really interacted with the jury system much.

And I agree with your assessment about the bigotry that seems to be permitted. That "Israel digs up Obama's tree" thread was pretty disgusting throughout. I haven't checked it out in awhile just because it really got under my skin. Part of me thinks its best to just avoid the Israel threads, but the other part of me realizes that there has to be voices to shoot down the crazy talk that goes on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Why I started a thread with the truth.

I kept kicking it every time that one was kicked.

It's a minor way to fight back.

I also put a long time poster who was posting pretty shitty stuff, and could not admit he was wrong on that...somebody who otherwise is pretty progressive. There is this thing called left wing anti semitism. It's getting old.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. It is time to revist this issue.

There are a number of recent posts which indicate an on-going problem with little reprieve in sight. So, how are people feeling now?

[meti57b]

35. I have been following it, .....

... I think it's time to bring it to the attention of the board owners/admins either in ATA or directly by Skinner's email.

[Behind the Aegis]

36. I would encourage both!

It may do fat little good, but doing nothing will accomplish just that, nothing. There have been some real hum-dingers, including one who is holding fast to some really bigoted ideas, so much so that most of the posters are challenging him, except for two, one who seems to approve of the message and another who seems intent on distracting from the event.

Seems some are enjoying the ability to hide behind certain ideas, defending anti-Semitism, or in some cases, challenging it until they are challenged demonstrating they had no real intent of challenging anti-Semitism, just keeping up airs.