EXTRA! EXTRA! READ ALL ABOUT IT! MURDERING ASSHOLES ARE VICTIMS TOO!!!

[Heddi]

Film at 11, or you can read about it you know where.

See, the people who did the killing, it may or may not have been because of religion (there is still debate, apparently, by people who aren't really sure what to think yet because their idols haven't made a public declaration one way or the other).

BUT we can say with certainty that the people who did the killings were VICTIMS TOO and probably MORE VICTIMS than the ACTUAL VICTIMS, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE THEY KILLED BECAUSE THEY INSULTED THEIR DIETY OF CHOICE.

I can hear you all now. "But Heddi, how is this possible?" and I'll just say "I have no fucking idea, but that's the meme du jour until the next "explain it away and get rid of the religion angle" bullshit gets trotted out like a Christmas Capon."

So, in review:

Religion played no part in the killings in Paris

Except that it did, kind of

NO WAIT! The guy who played Murdoch on Airplane! Says it wasn't. HE SHOULD KNOW HIS NAME IS MUSLIM SO THEREFORE HE IS AN EXPERT ON ALL THINGS RELATED TO ANYTHING RELATED TO MUSLIMISM. And Middle Easternism. Because he's a muslim, guys!!!

This wasn't about religion (STOP SAYING THAT), it was about, um, power. I mean politics. Power and politics. And land. Geography. History. Art, science, and math. BUT NOT RELIGION.

Okay, maybe a LITTLE BIT about religion, but a fringe of the REAL religious people. Like, just some, not all.

The murdering thugs who have killed over a dozen people were VICTIMS OF THE NON-RELIGIOUS THING THAT MADE THEM KILL THE PEOPLE. Duh. Feel bad for them. They were pawns in a game that had NOTHING to do with religion. Or islam. Or anything except for power. And things not related to religion AT ALL so stop saying that.

[Ohio Dem]

1. Sounds right.

Saying that wasn't about religion is such obvious nonsense.

[Skittles]

2. yup

sheer fucking insanity - from the outside looking it, they're ALL nuts

[Cartoonist]

3. Catholic League President Bill Donohue says

the cartoonists’ “obscene portrayal of religious figures” represents an “abuse of freedom”

Donohue also specifically singles out the paper’s publisher Stephane Charbonnier, who was killed by the two shooters on Wednesday. “It is too bad that he didn’t understand the role he played in his tragic death,” Donohue said.

[Curmudgeoness]

5. I am glad that I am not on the same side as Donohue. nt

[bvf]

12. Donohue is a waste of skin. n/t.

[Curmudgeoness]

4. How can you even say this!

Really??? I cannot imagine anyone really believing that. It isn't possible.

They must have forgetting that without religion, the murderers would not have had an excuse for the murders. The main reason for all of this was because a religious figure was disrespected and they got their panties in a twist. It isn't rocket science.

I take comfort that so many people all over the world are standing against this act of terror, perpetrated by terrorist. Those who are making excuses do not concern me.

[Eko]

6. If this was indeed because of Religion,

Why do so few (percentage wise) religious people do this?

[Tobin S.]

10. Without religion, what would have been the terrorists reasoning to commit such an act?

[Eko]

15. Bad logic.

I think like most things the real reason behind this is complex and not simple. Religion probably played a part, but how much? If something else played the part in the majority, would that be the reason? Possibly. Could one of the smaller factors have been the breaking point? Sure. A buddy of mine told me that we were based on Christianity because the majority of the founding fathers were Christian of some type, I responded that 100% were white guys wearing wigs, two factors at a hundred percent surely means we were founded on white guys wearing wigs rather than Christianity which had much smaller metrics. He didn't find it funny, but I still do.

[Promethean]

16. That is the part that always upsets me.

People say "Oh they would have found a reason to do it without religion." All I can think is: How many non-religious reasons can you think of that would be acceptable to a wide range of people and would elicit sympathetic sentiments even from those who don't share their motive?"

We see it everywhere.
Doctor Tiller is murdered: "Well he was going against Christianity killing babies like that."
World Trade Center: "Well the US kinda deserved it for interfering in the Muslim world so much." (commonly expressed in interviews with citizens of Muslim nations)
Woman beheads her child: "Oh she was sick, it doesn't matter that she though the child was demon possessed."

[Eko]

17. How about the fact that

we invaded two Muslim countries, one based on a lie, killed lots of Muslim citizens who were innocent, used torture on them, killed innocents with drone attacks, overthrew a democratic secular government in Iran, and that is just the start. But its Religion, sure. I am an atheist, I don't like religions, I think they are bad for us, why? because they promote bad logic. Saying you know what the reason was at this point is bad logic.

[bvf]

19. Well, there's this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

God told him to do it. As in, "My god can kick your god's ass."

No religion there, either.

[AlbertCat]

24. we invaded two Muslim countries, one based on a lie, killed lots of Muslim citizens who were innocen

But religion has nothing to do with all these Muslims?

[bvf]

11. A better question might be:

How many millions of believers saw this as a righteous act?

[Tobin S.]

13. Probably more than you think.

[bvf]

14. I wouldn't hazard a guess

but nothing would surprise me.

I admit I was probably low-balling just then.

[kdmorris]

7. I can't believe that anyone makes this argument

It's beyond disgusting the ways that people will try to make this about how it wasn't their fault (they were provoked, the newspaper should have been aware, etc).

I saw one person state that Charlie Hebdo certainly expected to be a "martyr for the cause". What cause?

When did the consequences of publishing a satirical cartoon become getting killed along with 15 others? Will these same people come forward and defend Westboro Baptist Church if they shoot up the headquarters of The Onion?

I cannot think of anything that someone prints about something I care deeply about that would make me shoot them and anyone in the vicinity. It's just ridiculous that there are people that still want to defend it and say "it's not about religion".

[Tobin S.]

8. I love you, Heddi.

I don't care if you are male or female or straight or gay or whatever. I love you.

[bvf]

9. Cue the weasels you know where...

"Allahu Akbar" must mean something other than what I thought. Probably something like, "I'm not a religious nutbag."

Elsewhere, delusion knows, "God made me do it" is code for "I'm fucked up in the head."

[LiberalAndProud]

18. Holy shit.

I thought you were making it up.

[mr blur]

20. Truly, Ignore is my friend

Because I haven't read any of this crap. Some people are just beyond help and they all seem to end up in the same place.

[onager]

21. Juergensmeyer = another Karen Armstrong

I was going to make the Subject line "Juergensmeyer = Karen Armstrong with a penis." But thought that might trigger an Alert. SELF-CENSORSHIP!1!

Check out Juergensmeyer's bio and related articles at the original link. According to him, religion is never to blame for anything, anytime.

Example: his article on the Boston bombing: Don’t Blame Religion for Boston Bombings

In fact, you can sum up most of Juerge's Glurge with the title: Don’t Blame Religion for (Insert Latest Atrocity Here).

Now let's fact-check his article:

Though at least one of the brothers may at one time had ties to the Yemeni al Qaeda, there is no evidence that they were sent by some higher authority in the organization to commit this crime. The details of the background and motives of Said and Cherif Kouachi are not yet clear—as it turns out, religion per se might not have been a primary motivation.

Really? Juergensmeyer must not read much news...this is a random link from the Independent-UK:

Last night al-Qaeda claimed it was behind the Charlie Hebdo slaughter. In a statement issued by al-Qaeda’s Yemeni branch, AQAP (ETA - Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula), the group claimed it directed the attack “as revenge for the honour” of Mohamed...

The claim echoed a statement reportedly made by Chérif Kouachi in a two-minute telephone call with French media outlet BFMTV in which said he was commissioned by al-Qaeda in Yemen...

Questions are being asked about how the jihadists still managed to build an arsenal of automatic rifles and explosives to carry out the terror attacks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-attacks-a-network-of-dissidents-stretches-from-algeria-to-finsbury-park-9969253.html

Just about every terrorism expert in the world is saying this looks like a long-planned and carefully thought out attack. Not some "random lone-wolf operation," as Juergensmeyer claims. For one thing, the attackers used weapons and explosives not generally available to French citizens. Maybe Allah just miracled them straight to Paris or something.

The rest of his piece is just the usual finger-wagging and tut-tutting about the AWFUL treatment of the poor religious believers by assorted mockers. e.g.:

It is one thing to make fun of real life leaders, quite another to belittle someone’s faith...These images demean a whole race or culture, in the case of Muslims.

OK, so making fun of a "real leader" like the Pope should be OK, then. I also notice he tried to deal the usual "race" card off the bottom of the deck, when we're talking about a religion.

Finally - no kidding - some American religious liberals (mostly) have been cherry-picking Charlie Hebdo's history to find things they can be outraged about. And all over the Internet, Actual French People are warning that clueless Americans shouldn't do that, unless they have a very deep knowledge of current French culture and politics. Charlie Hebdo was a far-left magazine, and many of its satires are poking fun at specific issues related to the French Far-Right, Le Pen etc.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. kick.

The bent over backwards head up assery on display here since the massacre has been an amazement.

[m-lekktor]

23. the atheist hater/ religion apologist Chris Hedges thread in GD

where he proclaims it has nothing to do with religion it has to do with poverty is at 110 recommends as i type this post. I give up. lol