Not religion related - just need to vent to pals

[Heddi]

Hello,

So I'm a charge RN where I work, and I actually only have 1 person that reports directly to me, which tends to make things easier-ish, as far as the charge nursing goes. There's another charge RN that I work with who has more people that report directly to her (she being the previous temporary manager who had prayer meetings). Since she's gotten from being temporary manager back to charge RN, I find that we run a pretty tight ship, or at least do our best given the people we're having to work with.

So one area of strife that, I think, all RN's have to deal with is delegation of tasks or duties to unlicensed workers--LPN's, CNA's, MA's, etc. etc.

Today, I was tasked by my boss to talk with the MA that works with me and reports to me regarding her repeated tardiness and her need to help out with delegated tasks and not refuse them (she flat out told me 'no' when I delegated a task to her today, and she was not doing anything else at the time)

He told me it would make me unpopular, and it would make me uncomfortable, but that it had to be done.

So I attempted to have "the talk" in a very open, non-threatning way. It went spectacularly horrible.

My MA was yelling, and snapping her fingers and waving her hands and being generally disrepectful. "Who are you? Who are you to me? You're not my boss" etc etc.

Interrupting, etc.

I kept my cool, kept calm, no yelling. She kept turning away from me and I kept asking, then telling her to turn around so we could talk.

I tried my best to frame the conversation as "Boss asked me to talk with you about this because if he has to talk to you about this, you're going to be written up. I'm just trying to help you" "I DON"T NEED YOUR HELP I CAN LOOK OUT FORMYSELF ALBHALGHLAJLKJSLDFKJL:KJWER"

So, in short order, I offered to take the conversation back to my boss so that way the 3 of us could talk about things.

We went to his office, and she was much more calm, but still quite defiant regarding the issue of timliness, completion of delegated tasks, and the need for lunch to be at a certain time.

Thankfully (?) this happened towards the end of the day, so I only had to deal with the uncomfortable silence in our shared office for a few hours. She didn't speak to me except to tell me she was going to lunch, and then came back up 30 minutes later and pounded out what I can only assume was a heated letter of some nature to some person, and then made herself scarce the last hour prior to leaving.

....
This leadership and bossy-type stuff is for the birds.

When I was preparing to talk to her, and she was giving me shit, I was shaking I was so...nervous? I don't know. I wasn't mad, but I was just so much energy. I swear that people in California could hear my heart beating against my sternum and I could actually see my pulse in my eye-balls as I sat there. I kept my breathing in check and never raised my voice or yelled or flailed my arms about.

----
afterwards my boss said I did a good job. That doing the right thing isn't always the popular thing. I know to grow in my field, I have to get over my discomfort with confrontation and stop making excuses for people and feeling bad for doing my job....all afternoon I've thought "gosh, should I have made a big deal out of this" and then i"m like "Oh shut the fuck up. of COURSE you were right to bring this issue to Boss's attention."

I'm so ridiculous.

My boss said, which is true, that if I try to do things that people will like me for and avoid the things that are uncomfortable, I'm just making my job harder inthe long run and it will come back to bite me in the behind later on. I see that happening now. Trying to insulate my MA from criticism, and attempting to help her do her job has led her to believe that she and I are "equals" in the grand scheme of things. The reality is, we're not. I have certain jobs to do and she has certain jobs to do. One of the benefits (?) of being an RN is the ability (given to me by the state via my Licensure) to delegate appropriate tasks to staff. Just as the MD delegates to me, and she is delegated by her lead physician. I am given tasks to do by my MD, the NP I work with, as well as my boss. IT is an unrealistic expectation that I run all of my daily duties by my MA to get her approval. That's not how that works, and I think she was surprised when my boss backed me up that yes, there are things that she has to do that yes, I could do, but is more her job description to do than mine.

Gah. So stressed. I never drink on the weeknights (especially being in school) but I wish I had a beer here.

I don't see how managers can do this regularly. Do the butterflies and "oh gee, was I wrong to.." feelings go away?

[Arkansas Granny]

1. Would it help to have a written list of duties and specify who is responsible for each one?

I found this to be helpful when I was in a similar situation. This won't help the tardiness issue, unfortunately.

Good luck. It can be stressful working with someone like that.

[Heddi]

4. We do have it written down

and she does nearly everything she's supposed to. She just has a bad habit of not kicking in her fair share when she's got down-time and uses other non-essential duties (calling a MD's office for a fax number, etc) as some kind of BUT LOOK AT ME IM DOING THINGS IM REALLY BUSY TOO. Today her excuse was online education that she's known about for months, but puts off for days when she feels like kicking back and not doing her fair share. "OH, I can't do that, I'm doing online education." Well, that's not a priority and is never her priority until it's a convenient way to get out of work.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Well, I don't normally post in this group, but i saw your post, so ...

I was an RN too, but not a manager.

Not in a hospital, anyway.

Saying that, I will say that the nerves and other feelings you describe certainly diminish after a time. Maybe they go away, maybe not. You will get stronger doing these after a while but it does take getting used to. It's like using a flaccid muscle; use it and over time, it gets stronger and you might even enjoy using it.

So hang in there and do what you need to do! And if your MA doesn't shape up, then maybe she needs to lose her job, along with her misplaced attitude.

And good luck!

[Heddi]

3. Thanks, CalPeg

She can be an amazing worker when she wants to be, and rather lackadaisical when she wants to be. I tried to explain to her that it's hard to justify asking other people to help us with our (her) work when we're busy when we (she) aren't willing to do our (her) part when we're not busy. She was hearing none of it. Her unwillingness to help out makes it looks like I am playing favorites and asking other people to do things that I don't ask her to do.

For the most part, our department is very busy, and we do need and appreciate the help. Today we weren't, and the tasks she was working on weren't time-sensitive or urgent things to be done. They were things that she put off doing and used as a convenient excuse "oh I can't do that, I'm doing this!!!" as way (imo) to get out of doing tasks. A classic example of "lack of preparation on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part"

She's been in her current job, in my department, for about...oh...a few months. September, maybe? August. Something like that. She's worked for the company for 5 years. My old manager warned me when she was moved into the position that her (the MA's) enthusiasm will only last for so long, and her long-term ability to keep her head up is kind of lacking. We were both seeing her moving into the position as a way to show that she can pull for the long-haul, not just short term. I don't think she's ready, or willing to do that at this point.

At least I feel good that my manager wanted me to "spread my wings" and be more assertive and tackle the issue head-on rather than passing it off. He walked me through what to say, and we both kind of felt like we knew what direction it was headed, and he was there for me when I felt that she was moving things out of my league and into an area that he needed to be involved in.

Growth is hard Me no likey

[CaliforniaPeggy]

5. How long have you been charge nurse?

If you're new at this, I'd say hang in there and the growth will happen.

But if you're not new......well, then, you might want to consider that this role may not be for you. Growth IS hard.

You have to decide what's right for you.

[Heddi]

6. I've been an RN 10 years

I was a charge for 37 bed ICU/Tele/Step Down many years ago.

Charge in this role has been slowly developed over the last 1.5 years at my current job. DIdn't start out as charge, the job description changed as my managers saw that i was good at my job, was able to motivate, etc. Basically, my job wasn't a charge-type role until I came into it and showed them that I could be more of a leader than my role originally called for.

Many lifetimes ago, when I was a chef, I was assistant kitchen manager and helped run a pretty sizeable kitchen staff.

Growth is hard. The hardest part is I'm miss nice lady. I don't want to make anyone upset blah blah.

I think the hard part is that we share an office, so there's nowhere for either one of us to go to kind of remove ourselves from the situation. By the nature of our practice and the way the department works, being in separate work areas is a disaster waiting to happen, and I would never encourage it.

It is doubly difficulty because despite her age, I think she is emotionally immature, and so everything is taken as a personal attack against her, rather than constructive criticism. Or more like, it's not an "attack," it's a reminder that these are your job duties and this is what's expected of you. Everything anyone says to her has to be couched with "this isn't personal." "I'm not saying this to be mean" etc etc. She has an expectation of being surrounded by egg-shells for others to walk on. Otherwise, she'll have an emotional and unprofessional outburst. That's not real life, and my boss has made it clear that such nonsense won't be tolerated.

Because of our close (physical space, not friends-after-work) working relationship, my boss feels (and I agree with him) that she sees herself as my equal. We're not equals. Just like I'm not my boss's equal. I'm not my lead physicians' equal. We have different jobs and different descriptions. It is no more appropriate for her to ask ME "well why can't you do it" than it is for me to ask my boss why HE can't do a job he delegated for me to do.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

8. All those factors make it difficult.

I wish I knew what to say that would really help!

[Heddi]

10. I appreciate you letting me vent

It's helpful. My husband is at work tonight and it's hard to talk on the phone, so I do appreciate your reading without rolling your eyes too loudly

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. I would never roll my eyes at you!

I'm retired from nursing now, and have been since 2005, but once a nurse, always a nurse!

[Curmudgeoness]

7. That is the reason my RN sister didn't want more education.

She loved nursing, but knew she would hate managing. Since you are still going to school, apparently you are looking to move into more managerial positions, so you will have to get used to this.

I have been in the same position, and it is always depressing for me when I must do this. You have to look at it as "not your fault" before it will be easier. It is the person who is not doing his/her job properly who is at fault. (Damn them for putting you in that position!) You know that you want a well-run department, and you know that it will reflect poorly on you if people under you are taking advantage of you. Don't let that happen---it becomes your job performance looking bad, or their job performance looking bad. Which is it? If you are a caring person, it will never be easy. But it will get better with experience.

My question is, why didn't she get written up for this behavior? You told her you were trying to prevent that, and she treated you like shit. She should have been written up so she was aware of who is in charge and will learn to be more respectful. Don't let it escalate like that in the future without consequences.

Good luck.

[Heddi]

9. Well, I think a write-up is in her near future

because we're super big company, there is a very clear set of rules re: write ups.

So today was basically verbal warning. For respect, for punctuality, for her expectations for doing tasks.

If she's late again, or calls out again, or is rude again, or doesn't do a delegated task again, then it's my manager's responsibility for writing her up. He's very much a by the book kind of guy, and I really like that about him. "You can never go wrong when you follow the rules." Well, maybe you can, maybe you can't, but I like that he's not a wiggle-room kind of person.

She's someone that expects and demands wiggle room. Every day is an exceptional day for her. There was traffic, her kid was sick, the car wouldn't start, she has to leave early, she has this, she has that, her kids this, her school, her stomach, her head.....she's busy, she's doing this, she's doing that, etc etc. She was upset that the new manager did away with the non-existent "7 minutes after the hour before you're considered late" policy, that was never a policy, it was because our previous manager didn't care.

He's like "there is no grace period. If you have traffic every day, then you should leave earlier."

So she wants there to be a 7 minute grace period before she's counted late. But today she came in at 17 after and was like "yeah but it's just a few minutes late." No. it's 17 minutes late. That's a full 10 minutes AFTER the non-existent 7 minute grace period that he made clear didn't even exist. So 7 minutes isn't good enough. What, if you're 30 minutes late well that's just a few minutes after being 20 minutes late....

I don't get it, but I'm compulsively punctual and get quite stressed if I'm late. And I often take 2 busses into work many days a week and, aside from the bus running late, I'm on time. Early, actually.

Today the expectations were made clearly and without ambiguity. I know, as a nurse, that whether it's a patient or a fellow worker, ambiguity leads to confusion. So I was really clear with the expectations that I have, which are the expectations my boss has.

If I were a gambler, I'd bet $5 that she calls out sick tomorrow, which is going to get her written up. She often doesn't see big picture. She's a very 'here and now' kind of person.

[Curmudgeoness]

13. You will do fine.

It is always most difficult the first time you have to do this. Your expectations for yourself are high, so you do not want to be pulled down by poor employees.

When I was a manager, I had to deal with people who I worked with all the time. But they knew what was expected, and you are right, no ambiguity makes it easier. I had some who were great employees and we always got along well, and I had others who were not so great and we did not get along. I have been considered a great boss by some who loved that I would give them latitude. I have been considered a bitch by some who needed special treatment just to do their jobs and did not want to work. You will get used to it. Wait until you have to be the one who fires someone.....now THAT is hard even if you know they have to go.

Your job will be so much better when you have employees who will respect you. You will learn that some people are poisonous to you.

[trotsky]

12. I agree with your boss. Well done.

I am lucky to have drama-free people reporting to me.

And look on the bright side, at least you aren't considered "basically homeless." What a horrible life that would be, why you might only be able to afford one 90-day European holiday a year.

[Heddi]

16. Thanks, Trots!

This girl keeps it up, she'll be basically homeless, and without a boat to sail upon into the sunset. My boss pulls no punches and he is a firm believer that the wheat has to be separated from the chaff. You are paid to work. Don't want to work? Find another thing to do with your time.

He does not place unrealistic expectations on people. What is being asked of this woman isn't beyond any realm of reality. She just doesn't like being held to the same standards that she demands others be held to. She's a stickler for rules that don't apply to her.

[trotsky]

18. It's gotta be frustrating.

Those kind of people (who insist that everyone else follow the rules that they ignore themselves) are the worst. They ruin relationships, workplaces, even Internet message boards!

[Tobin S.]

14. The MA doesn't seem to respect you. At least not enough.

Your fear of confrontation probably has something to do with that. Combine that with her unsavory personality and I think it's understandable why this is stressing you out.

I think your boss is right and I think Peggy is right. This is something you will have to learn how to do if you are going to be in management. I also think it's something that you have to tackle head-on. There will be times when you have to do something like this again. If you avoid asserting yourself, you won't be a very good manager. If you tackle the issues when they present themselves, it will be hard to do at first, but you'll get better at it and it will probably get easier. Maybe not really easy, but easier.

I'm not in management, but I have had the same kind of issue in the past with letting people know where I stand. I have learned that many people will walk right over you if you let them. You have to make them respect you.

[Heddi]

15. Thanks, Tobin

I appreciate your thoughts. I do have to learn to do this, and much like the MA was given her expectations, my boss has made it clear to me that I'm expected to perform at a much higher level re: delegation and MA task completion, etc. So just as I made the expectations she has very clear, my boss made it clear to me that my job performance now relies, in part, on being a strong and assertive charge nurse.

I can't let him down. I can't let myself down.

[Tobin S.]

17. You'll get it done, Heddi.

I have confidence in you, especially knowing how assertive you can be in your posts here at DU. It's not the same as the real world, but I think it shows that you have the needed traits in you.

[onager]

20. Can't help much, which...

Won't stop me from bloviating, as usual.

Sounds like you have a very good boss backing you up. Based on my experience in these situations, that's a huge plus. I was in a place once where I became Manager-By-Default because my boss was often gone or just not interested in dealing with certain unpleasant chores. That really sucked.

I've also had to deal with modern management phenomena like Management-By-Buzzword, Management-by-PowerPoint-Presentation, and Management-by-Book-of-the-Month-Club.

The last one is a real whizbang. "Didn't you READ the '10 Effective Management Strategies for Dealing With Every Situation?'" "Well, yes. But the situation is two employees who got caught boinking on the Break Room table. I didn't see that in the book. Should I call H.R. or Facilities for cleanup? And by the way, you might want to have lunch at your desk today..."

Also sounds like you don't want to let that boss - or yourself - down. So you should come thru this OK. I'm not so sure about your slacker employee, though.

Whatever you do, you'll spend some time second-guessing yourself and playing "what if?" That's normal too. But at some point you just have to say you did the best you could at the time with the situation you had, and move on.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. Start looking for a replacement.

Someone who knows the tasks more or less, but isn't a dickbag about working. Poach someone from another department if you need to.

Nobody needs that kind of bullshit in their life. If a co-worker is giving you physical anxiety about what should be a casual conversation... you need a new coworker.

Edit: might impress the boss too. "Here's three good MA candidates you might be interested in."

[Heddi]

24. That was talked about in our first meeting

I think I was giving her more benefit of the doubt than she deserved---I know I was. I found out today that she's had 5 prior written write-ups about tardiness, leaving early, calling out.

I defended her and she made me look like a chump. I don't want to say "fuck her," because I'm professional, but I will say that I will stand by a hard worker, but I will not stand by a liar and a manipulator. And I feel that the last 2 days have shown her, to me, to be both. I think my boss saw that she was within the first few weeks of him starting the job.

We already have some irons in the fire as far as replacements. There is one person that everyone thinks will be really great in the job, and she's relatively new so not very tainted by the bullshit. There's a person who used to have this very job but left, but is unhappy with that new position so wants to come back. There are positives and negatives to this. Then there is the option of finding someone completely new from outside the company (new hire) and selecting and training them to be the person that they need to be for the position.

[PeaceNikki]

22. I will pray for you.

lol, no I won't.

I have no magical words of wisdom. Only hugs and compassion. I managed people for a few years. I hate it. It's annoying. I wish you the best.

[Heddi]

25. Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the top of the food chain, so to speak

I want to put a sign on my desk "The Buck Stops There" he he.

That's why I liked ER over ICU---ER, i can always ship them out to the ICU. ICU...there's nowhere else for the patients to go. No matter how sick they are, you can't shrug them off to anyone else. You are the top of the food chain. Same with management. I'll be in the middle. Let me push the troubles off to my boss when they get too hot to handle

[Heddi]

23. So, an update

Today was even more awkward than yesterday. Refused to speak to me all day, talking around me and staying out of the office...which generally would have been okay but she was out of the office dilly-dallying around and making more work for me. But I kept my cool. whatever. She wants to be a baby about shit, be a baby about shit.

Again, today, she was late. Again.

My boss asked me mid-morning how the day was going. I told him she was not speaking to me, and he said he knew, and not only was she not speaking TO me, she WAS speaking ABOUT me to anyone who would listen. He and i had multiple long-talks over the course of the day, and some of them included the other charge nurse, and some included the MD I work with. So today was a day of meetings about ridiculous shit that should have never even been blown up into this proportion.

I asked last night in my OP whether those feelings of butterflies and nervousness go away...I'm sure they do. Today, they were replaced by annoyance and "who the fuck are you to dictate the tone of this office, and to talk shit about me to my coworkers who have nothing to do with this???"

----

All of those meetings, however, did give me insight, either directly or indirectly, to the following things:

1) Despite being in her 30's, my MA has the emotional maturity of a 14 year old.

2) She sees all criticism as being personal against her, and that anyone who criticizes her (such as managers) are doing it because they don't like her, not because her behaviour or job performance demands correction. It's all personal against her.

3) Since 2010, she has had FIVE (5) written warnings about tardiness, leaving early, and unscheduled PTO (Calling out). 2010, 2011, 2013, and 2014. It's February of 2015 and she's about to get written warning number six, and possibly even more than that. My boss is contacting HR in the AM to find out what the next step is.

4) She expects to be governed by a different and more accommodating set of rules than she demands others be held to. The things she repeatedly criticizes other MA's for doing or not doing are things that she has been guilty of doing, even as recently as today.

5) She has lied about several issues over the last 2 days, specifically telling multiple people today that I told my boss private information about her. This is a lie because 1) I don't have private information about her and 2) I didn't tell him anything. He verified this with the other charge RN and the MD. It's something that was made up out of whole cloth on her part to make me look bad.

6) My attempts to talk with her yesterday were to prevent what is going to happen tomorrow (the write up) from happening. The ball has been in her court for a long time, especially knowing how many write-up's she's gotten in the past. This is not a new thing for her. She could have taken the well-meaning advice I was trying to give her yesterday (Hey, you're being watched, you need to come in on time, you're about to get written up) but instead, she blew up and had a tantrum. Tomorrow is day 3. Not only is she going to be written up (or worse) tomorrow, but she is going to be told by my boss, myself, and the other CHarge RN (with the MD's blessing), that she can either work under the knowledge that I'm her charge RN, or she can find another position in the clinic...or anywhere else she'd like

By working in my department, she has been given special favors as far as when she can take her lunch, getting to take half her lunch at 4:30 so that she can arrange child care (this is generally not allowed). She has abused these "bends" in the rules for her. She often pushes lunch until the last minute then hey! I have to leave at 4 oh well too bad see you tomorrow. She continuously comes in late. She has a schedule that allows her to leave at 4:30 every day, and work no weekends or holidays. By working in another area, she will have to juggle working alternate weekends, working until 7pm, working holidays.

She's going to want to have it both ways. She's going to want to keep her special priveleges re: schedule, but not work in the department.

My boss is a very patient man, and he is a hard-liner. I appreciate both of those attributes, honestly. You know exactly where he stands. He is not an ambiguous person.

I have a feeling I will have a new MA by the end of the day tomorrow.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. This is why I have spent more than 30 years avoiding all managerial responsibility and always

functioning as an individual contributor or consultant.