Crisis: I am about ready to renounce atheism.

[PassingFair]

Because I am REALLY sick and tired of arguing with people over the DEFINITION of ATHEISM.

I have called myself an atheist since I was 13...

Before that I was a doubter and a skeptic.

I was taken to church on Sundays, and NEVER, not once,
do I ever remember "believing" anything that they told me.

Ironically, the day I was "confirmed" as an Episcopalian was
the day I determined that I was an Atheist.

To me, an atheist is someone without theistic beliefs. Period.

I don't claim special knowledge of "nothingness".

I just don't BELIEVE in any theistic, supernatural beliefs that I have been exposed to. None.

BUT, the DICTIONARY definition of "Atheism" is "belief that god does not exist".

I am tired of arguing with theists over the differences of belief and knowledge.

I am at the point of being comfortable just declaring: I don't know, but I make no claims of knowledge.

Anyone else tired of explaining "Strong Atheism" vs. "Atheism" vs. "Agnosticism"?

[Lionessa]

1. Which dictionary?

I was also under the impression atheism is the lack of belief in supernatural entities, deities, gods, etc.

To "believe god does not exist," is a belief in a way, but I think it's just a poorly worded dictionary.

[PassingFair]

7. Most of them.

Enough that I am tired of trying to argue about it.

Merriam/Webster

Definition of ATHEISM
1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
See atheism defined for kids »

American Heritage Dictionary

a·the·ism

(ā'thē-ĭz'əm) pronunciation
n.

Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
The doctrine that there is no God or gods.



Here is a definition of Atheism from a group of atheists from a court case in 1963:


“Your petitioners are atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.

An atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it, and enjoy it.

An atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.

He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”



Last week, I was talking to a believer who ALWAYS says, "Well, I'm a Christian, you know" every time
she wants to talk about values or ethics. I have never told this woman that I'm an atheist. Last week,
however, in response to her "Well, I'm a staunch Christian", I said "Well, I'm a staunch Agnostic, and I
think you're right about ..."

It was WAY easier than telling her that I was an atheist, and she didn't respond to my "outing" myself at all.
We were on the phone, so I don't know what her facial expression might have told me.....

[dmallind]

48. Many words have multiple meanings. look at 2a instead

Disbelief is listed as lack of belief. 2a IS weak atheism.

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. Webster was a fundamentalist Xtian....

And the dictionaries that bear his name have had that grossly incorrect wording since the first published example.

In short, if you want a proper definition of Atheism and/or Atheist, the last place you go is to a theist.

[SecularMotion]

2. Try non-believer

The religious argue and split hairs over degrees of atheism and agnosticism in order to divide non-believers into smaller groups and deny our growing numbers.

[PassingFair]

8. I like non-believer, but it only works in a religious context.

There are lots of things that I DO believe in.

I've always like "Freethinker", but this pisses off most theists.

[edgineered]

3. Semantics, just as any other way, does no good either. One way

I have found to end those discussions with an agreement is by saying that I'm sure glad I'm not going to your heaven. Everybody there is alike. If you don't like cats, none of your friends with cats will be there. Same with dogs, music, food or anything else you can think of. Lets face it, none of your friends will be there either.

[rrneck]

4. I don't like labels.

All this effort to define atheism feel a little too tribal to me.

When it comes to a deity, I don't care.

[darkstar3]

5. It is annoying, but don't let other people tell you what you are.

[WillParkinson]

6. Not really...

I know what I am and am very comfortable with my decisions and definitions. If others are not, that's their deal. Most of them are so worried that you're going to intrude on their fantasy lives that they need to tear you down first.

[PassingFair]

9. I am just so sick of having to have the initial argument with them.

Some of them MULTIPLE times.

[WillParkinson]

10. Then don't...

Control the argument impulse.

“The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.”
― Confucius

The hardest things to do is to explain to people who not only do not understand, but refuse to understand. You'd be better off spending your time banging your head against the wall. At least then you'd have something to show for it.

As for those who you have to try to explain things multiple times...they figure if they can frame it in such a way they might make you renounce your heathen ways.

[PassingFair]

12. A rose by any other name.....

I'm just going to tell these people I'm an agnostic.

Save myself the trouble of arguing definitions.

But I'm still going to give money to the American Atheists.

[Curmudgeoness]

11. I have never had to deal with arguments.

Instead of declaring myself an "atheist", I just say "I don't believe in god"---and that is basically what you are saying you are trying to accomplish. This keeps me from having to make it an argument based on someone else's definition of "atheist".

I consider myself an atheist, but I know that this is one of those words that give the god people the heebie-jeebies. It seems as if that word, in itself, proclaims some sort of religion to them (or an anti-religion). Recent activism by atheists is also feeding into their fears---and I don't care enough to fight FOR atheism, I just want to save my fights for getting religion out of my life and my government. Unless I am looking for a confrontation, I find it is much easier for me if I simply say "I don't believe in god".

[PassingFair]

16. I care enough to fight for Atheism, but I realize it is just a word.

And I am sick of fighting the accepted definitions.

So, Agnosticism, here I come!

[Curmudgeoness]

24. Do you think that there will be less problem with that word?

Religious people love labels, and will latch onto that one too. Just not quite so viciously.

[PassingFair]

26. Yes, I "know" (get it..?) that there will be less problem with this word.

Only time will tell if I will find myself bogged down
in definition-ville if I don't self-identify as an atheist.

[Arugula Latte]

41. They'll probably assume you're more "open" to finding "god" if you're an agnostic

[AlbertCat]

42. "I don't believe in god"-

I generalize it even more. I just say "I don't believe in anything supernatural". That sorta takes the sting of anti-religion out of it because it includes other things as well.
You cannot use this if you don't believe in a god, but believe in ghosts. But who does that????

[Curmudgeoness]

43. I am not all that sure this is better.

When you say that, you are coming right out and saying that their beliefs are in the same league as ghosts and fortune tellers. I think it would make them more defensive.

As I have said, I really don't get hostility from anyone when I say "I don't believe in god". I have gotten the standard "I don't believe you" or "how is that possible", but never (yet) have I offended someone. I may try your suggestion to test the response, but my gut tells me that they will be offended.

[trotsky]

13. Just remind yourself, they HAVE to think that way.

They can't help it. It's the only refuge the serious god-believers have now: attack the atheist as being so supremely confident they have ALL the answers. "Hey, lookit everyone, this atheist thinks he knows EVERYTHING! How arrogant and JUST LIKE A FUNDIE!"

No matter how much you point out that neither you nor any other atheist has said that, they'll keep using it because it's about the only thing they have left.

[PassingFair]

19. Then I will begin by taking that from them.

Now I'll have to find a nice, Agnostic group to be a groupie for.
Since I'm quitting the nasty atheist group.

On edit:

[Neoma]

14. Try saying pantheist.

Most people don't know WTF that is.

[PassingFair]

20. Hey, I had to look it up.

"Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion gave Naturalistic Pantheism increased credibility among atheists by describing it as “sexed-up atheism.”

[Neoma]

22. I figure, if there is a goddess, and she's everywhere.

Then she's the universe. It's not a personalized goddess that speaks to me, it just is what it is.

[CJCRANE]

39. I like the sound of that...

but I'm wondering which way round it is...

Everything is God

or

God is Everything


..?

[Neoma]

40. I go by the first one.

It's not a personalized God, everything is just what it is.

[AlbertCat]

44. Everything is God or God is Everything

Redefining god.... just like a theist.

If god is everything, then we don't need the word "god".... just say "everything".

Of course what about the "god" that is "all that is unknowable"? Just say "I don't know".

"God is love"... just say "love".

These days, god is everything but a god. A desperate attempt to make the concept relevant.

[stone space]

55. I call it applied mathematics. See my signature.

If god is everything, then we don't need the word "god".... just say "everything".

[SamG]

15. What others think of or misinterpret about your thinking...

is irrelevant! It really is!

Either you do NOT believe in a theistic entity or you do. It's as simple as that.

You need not spend your life talking about this issue with the poorly mentally equipped folks who fail to see the logic of non belief. If you, in your course of your lifetime, find six or ten real life people whom you can influence, or find agreement with, regarding the non-existence of a god figure, you've lived a very lucky life.

Note that I said "six or ten real life people". If you choose to spend your time arguing with god-believing idiots on the internet, continually having to re-define non-belief, that's your choice, I prefer to just challenge and re-assure my own thinking on the topic by continuing to read the foolish assertions proposed by believers as to why they can believe.

If you're looking for attention as a non-believer, continue to argue with those who won't get your point but will spend 15 minutes with you here on the internet. If you wish to live your life enjoying your non-belief, don't look for understanding from believers as a way of finding enjoyment. Instead, look to some or many of your fellow non-believers to offer you some support and intellectual challenges here and there. That's much more fun, I find.

[PassingFair]

17. OK, ON-LINE, I will stop calling myself an Atheist.

Except here.

[Warpy]

18. How do you renounce atheism?

There's no way I can believe in gods I've never seen any evidence for.

I point out that the dictionary definition was penned by a believer and that I don't believe anything without evidence.

I tell them there's nothing they can do about it any more than I can shake their faith in whatever it is they have faith in, and attempting to do so would be unkind and doomed to failure since the most either of us could expect from intense bullying is lip service.

At that point, being reminded that religious bullying can be a two way street, they're ready to drop the subject.

[PassingFair]

21. "...they're ready to drop the subject."

Until the next time it comes up.

Again.

And again.

[Warpy]

25. At least it doesn't come up with me.

That's progress.

[PassingFair]

23. Mostly, I'm reacting to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121818207

I realized that I didn't have the patience to go through it AGAIN.

So from now on, I'm going to say, screw it, I DON'T meet YOUR definition of
an Atheist, so I'm an AGNOSTIC telling you that I don't believe in your
religious nonsense.

[deucemagnet]

27. I like what Julia Sweeney has to say about the word "atheist".

She says that by accepting the label "atheist", you're allowing yourself to be defined in terms of something you don't even believe is real. It's true, when you think about it. "Atheist" is a word that shouldn't have to exist. There aren't similar terms for people who don't believe in gnomes, fairies or bigfoot.

I just tell people that I'm not religious. If they pry, I'll admit that I don't believe in god. I find the conversation usually ends there.

[laconicsax]

28. I have to warn you...

If you leave with dues owing, your membership will be suspended. After three quarters of suspended membership, you will be expelled and owe a reinstatement fee to return to return to good standing. All membership benefits will be rescinded and you will be dropped from the group health plan.

You will be required to return or destroy all membership materials including the directory, global manifesto and action plan, and especially the plan to eliminate Christianity by 2014.

Also, you will no longer be invited to the annual barbecue and bi-weekly wine tasting and will only be admitted to the barbecue as a current member's "plus one."

You will no longer be absolutely not be allowed admittance to the monthly baby feasts.

So, please think about what you will be giving up.

But seriously, I don't think that relabeling yourself is going to change anything.

[PassingFair]

29. Best to make a clean break.

?w=265

Can I still come back for the reunions?

[Joseph8th]

30. I usually use the term...

... atheism as a way to get OUT of theological conversations, which I hate.

As long as it shuts down the pushy believers, I'm happy with the term. It helps that I can be a jerk and shut down a pushy believer or walk away if they don't get the hint.

[eqfan592]

31. You, and I, and many others here, likely fall under the category of Agnostic Atheism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

I don't claim any special knowledge either, and while the scientist in me must allow for the possibility that evidence may turn up that demonstrates the existence of a god or gods, I hold no belief in a god or gods, nor do I find it likely that such evidence will ever present itself. I call myself an atheist now, after years of straight agnosticism, because of this.

These labels are a royal pain in the ass, and the "certainty" that theists love to apply to us really pisses me off sometimes, but it is what it is.

Just remember that you aren't alone in any of this, bud.

[PassingFair]

45. Thank you, Eqfan...

It's good to know that others understand and feel the same.

[Iggo]

32. Don't argue with them.

[madmom]

33. I usually just say

I don't do the god thing...has worked so far.

[PassingFair]

34. So do you say that because "atheist" brands you as "bad"...

or because you never identified as an "atheist"?

[madmom]

35. I never really formally identified as an atheist but have told a few

that I am atheist. It just really never occurred to me to label myself.

on edit so far I have been label a bad person only by my in-laws (who are lutheran in name only) because I according to them led my husband astray

[PassingFair]

36. What do you tell your children to say when they are asked about their religion...

or they want to talk about their atheism with others?

I always told my daughters (when they were young) that they should say that
"religion was a private matter" and try to shut the conversation down.

This led to a lot of really silly situations, including the years when we
were known as the only Jewish family in the school, because my oldest
daughter told a teacher she was Jewish because she thought it was the
easiest way out of having to tell the whole class she was an atheist.
(My youngest daughter was chosen to light a menorah in the Jr. High Christmas pageant,
wink, wink, by a well meaning teacher, even though she told the teacher she
wasn't jewish). LOLOLOL

(Because of her last name, the teacher thought she might be a muslim).

I have been comfortable telling people that I am an atheist, because I
don't care if they think I'm BAD (and because I am IMPRESSED with others
that declare their atheism proudly).

Lately, though, on DU, I am sick and tired of people telling me that atheists
"claim to KNOW that there is no god."

When a DUer pulled up a Carl Sagan quote wherein he denies that he is
an atheist because of the possibilities of the unknown, I just gave up.
I always considered Carl Sagan to be an atheist. I still do, although he
obviously eschewed the term himself.

My brother died a few months ago, and when I was sitting at the cremation
place discussing the arrangements with his wife, the funeral director asked
us what religion he was and I said "He was an atheist."

His wife nearly had an apoplectic fit.

She said that he "didn't know" if there was a god, but he was not an atheist.

(And believe me, my brother was a capital "A" atheist!)

[madmom]

46. You know, I seriously don't remember it ever being much of a problem when

they were young (both my children are adults now). My daughter's best friend was Catholic, she went to church with her on occasion. She also went to church in our neighborhood non-denominational church. She now has about the same feelings and beliefs I have. My son went to various churches with friends and school mates and is now a born again christian. I always told them I believed they should explore different beliefs and make up their own mind.
My mother-in-law is a lutheran and is the very idea I have of a fundy even though she says she is a democrat, she is very bigoted and got very vocal with her son, my husband, and my daughter and I one day. We invited her over for dinner and right in the middle of dinner she went off on my daughter and I because she said something about god and we replied we didn't believe that stuff and she went ballistic and called us all kinds of names and said she'd never step foot in this house again. She has not and we haven't spoken since. I could have probably gotten past that, but she went and told the rest of the family that I attacked her and did to her what she did to me and my daughter.Of course they believe her and they even embellished it more.That I can't get past and told my husband I will talk to her only when she apologizes to both my daughter and I. That, was 5 years ago, no apology yet. I really don't miss them at all, to much drama for my taste.

[PassingFair]

47. Holy Crap!

My mother gets pissy with me once in a while...

One year, while sitting at MY table with all of HER children
and HER children's children, she told my two kids that if they
didn't "believe" in Christmas that they didn't deserve christmas
presents.

I told her, in front of everyone, and ANGRILY, I might add,
that my kids BELIEVED in PRESENTS, and that my kids USED TO
BELIEVE that their Grandmother loved them.

She hasn't attacked my kids since.

I admit, she was a little "toasted" that night, so I put it down
to the drink.

We always do the Thanksgiving and XMas dinner at my house.
We invite EVERYONE.

We don't do Easter dinner.
Guess what?
We don't get invited
to any of my brother's houses, because "We don't celebrate
Easter". Whatever...I wouldn't want to sit through prayers
and sanctimony about how "holy" they all feel when I know
what they're really like.

My mother waits to see if she will be invited to any of her
son's homes on Easter. If not, she comes to my house.
I do baskets for my kids, and my husband and I perform
secret fertility rites on Easter Eve.

[PassingFair]

49. Does your son still have a relationship with "Mom"? nt

[madmom]

50. Yes he talks to her, but not a good relationship, by any means. He just wanted

his kids to know his grandmother. He doesn't live close anymore, so it's not too big a deal anymore.

Why do people have to be so mean, especially to kids? I'm sure you children will do just fine, as long as they know they are loved.

[PassingFair]

51. Oh yeah...they're 16 and 20 now.

I pity the fool that gets into it with them.

My youngest has had some interesting clashes
on Facebook over racist and religious comments
from "friends".

[madmom]

52. LOL, I know exactly what you mean. My youngest is

28 and she definitely has a mind of her own. I'm glad these kids are able to be so open minded, makes me think we did something right and there is still hope for this country.

[onager]

37. After reading the thread you linked...

I just see the Usual Suspects doing their usual stuff: hair-splitting, ridiculous parsing of plain language, and the absolute determination that they WILL have the last word.

FTS. I just avoid those threads.

By now I pretty much know which Suspects are sitting there with their dictionaries and Selective Quote Anthologies, just waiting to pounce and tie a thread into semantic knots with their BS. If it makes them feel better to think they've "won" the DU Debate of the Day, big deal.

We know who you are, and I think I've been reading your posts long enough to have a pretty good idea of where you stand. So call yourself whatever you want.

But if you renounce the word "atheist" - just remember that, in addition to the other penalties, we will have to repossess your Rubber Chicken. And you'll have to pay full price for any future trips in our black helicopters.

[PassingFair]

38. Yeah...the Sagan thing was a low blow.

His books helped me to define my atheism.

To see him reject the term just got to me.

[ElboRuum]

53. The nice thing about atheism...

...you are or aren't whether you like it or not. Personally, the conversation you speak of is stupid, because it really doesn't matter in the end. Atheism, however you want to express it means one thing and one thing only: Divinity/spiritualism/the supernatural is a suspicious concept which is rightly met with skepticism and disbelief. Anything more is splitting hairs.

[PassingFair]

54. Thank you.

I HAVE been splitting hairs...over a word.

[A HERETIC I AM]

57. If I tell someone I am Atheist, I immediately follow that up with...

"There is no god"

Usually with a tone that best tries to express my impatience with having to have said it yet again, coupled with an air of "and the reason why you fail to grasp that is why I don't want too much to do with you"

[intaglio]

58. Try "my beliefs are entirely secular"

or "I am a solipsist"

[hr]

Less seriously

If you can do the speaking in tongues thing try doing that:

Palest marak nibal toppesch ti flaar,
Sondalcair flimil sohn togar
Kahra! Klaras! ton gjibah!

I find that is good for a laugh when doorstepped by believers ...

Or if you want to confuse them ask them to prove "Sredni Vashtar" is not the true deity and if they have not heard of him then that is their loss -and eventual death.

Sredni Vashtar went forth,

His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.

His enemies called for peace, but he brought them death.

[Iggo]

59. I never get tired of watching them take another run at it.

[LiberalAndProud]

60. I embrace the label because it describes my state of belief.

That someone else wants to misrepresent or misunderstand this absence of belief, or pretend that it requires faith to not believe in an invisible and unknowable being, that belongs to them, not me. No skin off my nose.

[FiveGoodMen]

61. The argument over semantics DOES get really old.

Who really cares what we call it?

"I just don't BELIEVE in any theistic, supernatural beliefs that I have been exposed to. None."

That's all anyone really needs.

[AlbertCat]

62. Anyone else tired of explaining "Strong Atheism" vs. "Atheism" vs. "Agnosticism"?

Didn't you know?

All atheists are exactly the same!!!

Jeeze!

[AtheistCrusader]

63. Labels are like... constricting man.

Free yourself.