Things that affirm my atheism

[EnergizedLib]

Believers will point to the fact that while the existence of a God cannot be proven, neither can it be disproven.

I do, however, think that a lot of things can be used to support the theory that there is no God.

For starters, think of all of the atrocities in human history and what our planet has had to endure. One might say it's because humans were given free will, but I think much like ancient Greeks used Greek deities to explain things they didn't understand, so too do people of today, including the existence of any God. An all willing and all-knowing God would prevent some things, but wouldn't prevent the Holocaust, disease, disasters, apartheid, AIDS, famine, etc.?

Furthermore, it seems to me what a person's God wants aligns very closely with what they want. To say that TFG was God's chosen candidate (If there is a God and he supported trump, he's not worth worshipping), that GOP candidates in 2012 said that God told them to run for president (How'd that work out?) You think of people saying their God blessed them with their romantic partner, or their God wanted their favorite sports team to win. It's also easy to find a loophole in this. Think of after LSU scored that touchdown in the fourth quarter Sunday against Florida State. If a Florida State fan like myself were to pray that LSU didn't tie or win the game, while an LSU fan prayed for overtime or for a victory, one of us was bound to have our "prayers" answered, but that doesn't mean that any "God" exists or any prayers were answered, just that bets were hedged.

I can tell you that my life hasn't been perfect, hasn't been everything I'd hoped or dreamed of and had some struggles after college, but I bounced back and have been in my career for five years and have had my successes. I also did well in college in spite of being a non-believer. Why would a God reward any success at all to somebody who doesn't believe in him?

Sodom and Gomorrah. Who remembers the meltdowns when Obergefell was decided? The Netherlands first legalized same-sex marriage in 2001 and many countries, including the United States, have since followed suit. Yet, seven years later and counting, the United States is still standing. Don't you think a God who existed and was going to bring fire and brimstone to this country over the progress the LGBTQ+ community have made that said God would've destroyed us if he really wanted to?

Faith Healing. Think of people, including children, who died, and they very easily could've lived with proper medication instead of resorting to faith healing? Instead of targeting gay and trans youth, why not crack down on parents who try to get their kids better by faith healing? Adults who want to use faith healing are exercising their First Amendment rights. Adults who resort to faith healing for children are putting them in danger, since kids can't consent. This isn't My Sister's Keeper where every child is medically emancipated.

Birth and birth control. Jim Bob Duggar and his wife said that they don't use birth control and that they were going to let their God decide how many children they'd have. Surprise, surprise - 19 kids the Duggar Family has had, which probably couldn't happen by birth control, using a deity to explain science and common sense.

Televangelists and preachers. These people are wanting money for their big, fancy jets to go around and spread the word. John Oliver even did a segment about these people many years back.

"You get to that phone, and you put that seed in the ground and watch God work it out."

"As you use your faith, God is going to wipe out your credit card indebtedness."

Do you think televangelists endorsed TFG because they admired him for being even more prolific con artist than any of these people were?

The Anti-Christ. It's the Pope, whichever one that is. No, wait, it was Hitler. No, wait, it's been nearly every U.S. President since World War II. It's Macron, it's Zelenskyy, it's Putin. It was Saddam Hussein, as Pat Robertson told all of us.

Every single time some charismatic leader comes into the spotlight, doomsday predictions and the rapture are being cited by people. Every single time, it doesn't happen.

Nothing makes sense. From Biblical contradictions to people living hundreds of years, to burning bushes and talking snakes and talking animals. People ask how we got here. Then I ask how did any God here? They say that their God has always been here, but that makes no sense. And them saying that things are just beyond our comprehension goes back to what I say that this is their way of explaining things they don't understand. Furthermore, how could any God be perfect and infallible and also be jealous of others who receive adoration and worship? A perfect being, in my opinion, wouldn't have jealousy.

I'm all for freedom of religion and people governing themselves according to their religion. It's when they try to govern others, especially with something I believe to be fictitious due to the aforementioned and even other reasons that I haven't mentioned, that's when there's a problem.

[Timewas]

1. Whichever

Side you choose to believe/disbelieve is all the proof anyone needs. As Atheists we can see the silliness involved in religion... But you can never reason with believers, if they were capable of reason it would not be required... Any discussion with them on which side is correct is a total waste of time and effort..

[EnergizedLib]

2. It serves as a litmus test for voters

It still is acceptable to hate on us and to exclude us from public office, but how do they explain the rampant corruption in our country from so-called believers/Christians?

While a lack of faith doesn’t automatically make one superior or inferior, the same can be said of the believer. A good person is a good person, a bad person is a bad person, regardless of whom he or she does or doesn’t pray to.

[TigressDem]

21. Yeah, well some people can't read those results very well.

Didn't tRump hold that Bible upside down?

THAT is the way a Satanic priest would do it.


Scary when you think about it.


He's no Christian.

[msongs]

3. odd how people pick and choose religion to support their own biases and hatreds nt

[EnergizedLib]

7. Exactly

The homophobia is a perfect example. No hatred or shellfish or wearing mixed fabrics, but they hate gays and found some verses just to back that up.

[TigressDem]

8. Maybe I'm just old and odd....

but I was allowed to go to many different churches.

Mom was Catholic, Dad a Methodist, but they wanted me to pick my own faith.

And wherever I went, the sermons or teachings were about God's love, not who to hate.

Even Baptist preachers with their fire and brimstone, were talking about those who abandon the path of love and service, devotion and personal sacrifice and give up sin and vice.... getting what for.

Late 90's early 2000 things started shifting in the Midwest and even California. The KKK and conservatism still had hooks in the South but it started to spread.

Pope John Paul was a conservative, Pope Benedict a former Youth for Hitler.

Pope Francis is a decent guy but up against years of crap done in the Church's name, cleaning up like Biden is having to do after Repukes.

Not all Christians are crazy whack jobs.

But the ones that are make everyone want to vomit, even other Christians that know they are NOT following the example or words of Christ by getting stuck in the Old Testament and hung up on Leviticus.

[EnergizedLib]

16. Who are the ones with the voices?

Who are the ones who have come to prominence in this country? Are they the ones who preach of a loving God, or a judgmental one?

That’s what we need to fight against.

[TigressDem]

19. I think the responsibility to push back on Fake Christians, is on the other Christians.

It isn't just your fight.

They aren't doing my faith any justice by using it to justify their hatreds and judgemental ways.


Bible says, "Judge not lest ye be judged." "Judgement is MINE saith the Lord".

Christians are told in no uncertain terms that judging others is NOT their job.

BUT that doesn't fill the collection plate, I guess. I don't know.


AND I still think that like the MAGA is just the loudest and rudest portion of the Republican Party that is grabbing the mike and making noise all the time.... freaking their party out and causing a mass exodus from the far REICH daily the worse it gets.


The same type of thing is happening more and more in Christian communities. People of faith are standing up and saying, "THAT IS NOT ME. THAT IS NOT MY GOD YOU ARE DESCRIBING."

People who have really studied the Bible have to be pretty clear that this hatred is NOT in line with God as it has been taught in the majority of years this country has been established.

So just know, that you might not think you have any friends in the Christian community because so much crazy is coming out of the general loudspeaker, but know that faith is really a personal thing and a lot of Christians aren't out there wanting to bash a Bible over anyone else's head.

I don't hate atheists.

Not fond of Satanists, or Fascists, but it's more of a disgust with their obsession with evil and control.


Anyone who let's me be me, is fine by me to be themselves.


Why not?

[TigressDem]

4. Agree about at least one thing, religion should not be used by government to control anyone.

Not a fan of what I call "fake Christians" because what they do and say is opposite of what Jesus taught.

I am a fan of Jesus and His example of how to be good to others in this world.

I do think the 10 Commandments did help to set some boundaries.

I do think there are churches that work in their communities and make a positive difference.

BUT I understand the Inquisition, Crusades, Borgias and Salem Witch Trials were huge abuses of the power of religion over the people.**AND OF COURSE the current MAGA crusades***

I THINK religion is simply a way for individuals to think about being better and work together to make it happen.

There are other ways to do that.

In America, we are supposed to be free to choose any religion or none of the above.

I think separation of Church and State makes each organization better.


Just me.

[EnergizedLib]

6. Well

Gandhi said, I like your Christ, I don’t like your Christians, your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Boy, was he ahead of his time.

The 10 Commandments is held dear to many, but only two of those commandments - killing and stealing are universally laws. We may look down on adultery or coveting, maybe, but we can’t be arrested for it.

Religion is a tool of many thinking or striving to be better, yet causing him unto others in its name.

People will be hard pressed to work together with different faiths and belonging to different sects. That’s another layer that complicates things.

[TigressDem]

11. Back in the 60's was a thing called Vatican 2

It basically said, "Hey, let's at least agree to disagree and work together with other churches."

It was called the Ecumenical Movement. It was good.

And as long as people can enjoy their own faith and not crap on other people for their beliefs or lack thereof, things are peaceful.

It's when some decide that someone died and made them God, that stuff gets crazy.

[EnergizedLib]

12. That's some heavy lifting there

‘And as long as people can enjoy their own faith and not crap on other people for their beliefs or lack thereof, things are peaceful.’

One of said people just wrote the opinion that reversed Roe and derided people like myself for a lack of beliefs. Those people have influence.

Then, I’ve seen a lot of anti-Muslim rhetoric in my lifetime, which has mostly been post 9/11.

There is a demand by many to conform to their beliefs, to their faiths and when people can’t even agree on sects, what else are they going to struggle to agree on?

[TigressDem]

17. Yeah. Those good times do seem long ago and far away.

I remember being at "Melody Land" in California with people of all faiths at a conference to find ways to share and get along without worrying about all the intricacies of who is right or wrong about what. It was powerful.

I guess if I had been at the inauguration for Biden, it might have been a similar strength, though the fear factor of having passed Jan 6th was worse than most shade Christians threw at each other.

But people coming together with purpose and setting aside their differences is a deep part of America, so my hopes and prayers are for that kind of camaraderie to happen again somehow when we put the illegal and unethical crazy away and get back to just being people who live in the same world and do our own thing.


But being a practical person, I know faith and prayers only go so far. As they say, God helps those who help themselves and we have free will for a reason. God isn't going to live our life for us, we got to do that ourselves.

So hope, and then do what needs to be done to make the world a better place.

Step One, VOTE.

AMIRITE?

[EnergizedLib]

18. People coming together

It sounds great and people getting along with one another regardless of faith. I can only hope for that in my lifetime. Coming together seems like advocating for a lost cause.

‘But being a practical person, I know faith and prayers only go so far. As they say, God helps those who help themselves and we have free will for a reason. God isn't going to live our life for us, we got to do that ourselves.’

Again, I think is just used as an explanation to back something you to demonstrate something. I feel like, for example, when I made the Dean’s List during one of my semesters in college, when I became the Vice President of the honor society and got through all my work and tough times after college, it’s been without the belief of any God.

I feel like this was something that I did, that I was rewarded for my work here on Earth and the credit goes to myself and those who have helped and supported me along way, not the work of any deity I believe to be nonexistent. I’ve been driven, been somebody who prides himself on work ethic and to do his best. Even with how I push myself and put my best foot forward, some things still go my way, but things that do, I feel like I’m the one who did a lot to make it happen.

Any God who claims to be vengeful and jealous, who would said God help those who deny such an existence?

[TigressDem]

23. This isn't in the Bible, but it's a parable of sorts.

There was a horrible flood and people were stranded on the tops of their houses.

Many people did what they could to help their neighbors even before the actual "rescuers" arrived.

One man prayed and prayed that God would save him.

His neighbor came by with a rowboat and though his boat was almost full had room for one more.

"No, I'm good. God will save me."

OK.

Then a fire and rescue boat came by and again, the man declined.

OK.

Then a helicopter tried to air lift him to safety. Again, declined.


Flood goes above his roof, the man is swept away and drowns.


He gets to Heaven and is a bit angry at God, "WHY DIDN'T YOU SAVE ME?"

"I sent a two boats and a helicopter, why didn't you take the help I gave you?"



Any rate.


Like I said, I believe for myself, don't believe in a God who is vengeful and jealous, though in the Old Testament, there is some of that, but a whole new deal was made and THAT is the basis for Christianity in my way of thinking, for me.

I am glad that you can take pride in your own accomplishments and give credit to those who helped you along the way. Like I said, to each their own.

I just wish we could all get along and not worry about who believes what as long as they aren't shitting it all over my doorstep.

Ya' know?

[TigressDem]

13. Gandhi was a smart guy.

Kids obeying their parents is a good one. Honor they Father and Mother.

And while we don't arrest people for adultery, most relationships would be better if people just left a relationship if it wasn't good and waited to start a new one fresh. Cheating on someone never really does any of the parties any good if you think about it.

Lying can be an issue if it gets into perjury territory and it doesn't make for good business deals or relationships.

Boundaries that help people do better.

BUT society often covets the power of religion over the masses to affect their thinking in a more global way... and misuse it.

Hence why our ancestors left England and the Church of England to come to America.

[EnergizedLib]

15. The mother and father commandment

I severed all ties with my father in 2008, haven’t looked back since, won’t go back with his fanatical beliefs and learning he supported TFG.

I didn’t say cheating was good or right, just that it isn’t illegal and you can’t call it the basis for any laws. If I had a partner who cheated on me, it’d be unforgivable in my eyes, but nobody’s going to prison for it.

Lying under oath is obviously a big no-no, but lying to a person on a street corner, to constituents or to friends and family, while wrong, isn’t going to get anybody punished by law.

The first commandment says not to have other gods before Jehovah. The First Amendment says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

That right there is one way how the Ten Commandments are not the basis for any laws, that one can be moral without a deity and immoral with one.

[TigressDem]

24. I simply said it set some boundaries. An early guideline that helps humans get along.

AND you might not have seen it, but I am all for Separation of Church and State.

But the 10 Commandments came at a time when some wild and crazy stuff was going on and it was helpful as a way to keep them together and get them away from some bad influences.


At this time, we know a lot more about moral behavior and can make better choices without needing religious influence.


Again, I see religion as being more beneficial for a personal way to improvement, but don't think there is any reason for that to be pushed on to people by the government or the Church.


I'm sorry you and your father have to be on opposite sides of the TFG thing. My son says he's more "conservative" but doesn't really "like" tRump. Though he is drinking a lot of koolaid.

We have finally agreed to just not talk politics together, but I did have to stand my ground on several occasions, advised him to not mention MTG in my car or he could walk the rest of the way home and got out of his car one time when he started mansplaining shit to me.

Last weekend he rebuilt part of my deck that was dangerous and we are both pretty happy about it. It's a start.

BUT any rate, I just want to show an average face of a person who believes, but doesn't expect anyone else to think the way I do.

I only ask that I be allowed to do my thing.

[keithbvadu2]

5. Des Cartes proved with logic that God exists. The church rejected such proof because it negated th

Des Cartes proved with logic that God exists. The church rejected such proof because it negated the need for faith.

[Doc Sportello]

9. I think Descartes was wrong

Therefore, he was wrong.

[Croney]

10. In order to prove that God exists,

Descartes assumed that God exists.

God does not exist. That is my assumption.

[TigressDem]

14. To me, it doesn't matter.

Funny that, as I am a Christian.

IF God exists, great.

IF he doesn't, fine.

Either way, I like the way Jesus walked, talked and lived in this world and think He's a great example of how to treat other people.

I like a lot of the Saints lives and do whatever I can to be love in action.

And sometimes I'm just human and do stupid stuff too.

So I like the idea of forgiveness and starting over.

BUT I have met a lot of good atheists, pagans, agnostics and all flavors of religious types.

I've seen good and bad in all choices. Like a job, parts you will like and parts that suck because that's why they call it work.

We are human. So whatever we do is imperfect and yet with the flaws, there is still beauty to see as well.

[Warpy]

20. I give equal weight to the Babel fish

that caused the (Cartesian) god to disappear into a puff of logic.

I've always said I'd believe in any god who showed itself, but even in the 60s when I was doing acid, none had the decency to turn up.

[TigressDem]

22. I've heard it said...

that a Christian should always do the most kind and loving thing in a situation because, we might be the only Bible another person ever reads.

Our actions tell you what Christianity is about and those idiots out there screaming their hatred in God's name are making a mockery of Him.

I just hope that when you meet any actual Christian that treats you with kindness, decency and respect, you consider them God with skin on saying, "Hi." Better than things that might turn up on an acid trip.


Sometimes "God" is just the goodness and decency in humanity showing itself.

So even in some atheists, I see a reflection of God at times. Might be an optical illusion, but it gives me hope for human kind.

[Warpy]

25. Not a bad way to look at it

but I was speaking entirely from my own perspective.

I live in the US and always have, so most of my friends have been believers. What made them my friends is that they got the point.

[TigressDem]

28. As long as we accept people as who they are and act from decent morals toward each other, it's good.

You do you and I hope that continues to work with you and your friends and any new folks who wander into your life.

PEACE.

[Random Boomer]

26. How many people debate the existence of Zeus?

Coming up with logical arguments against the existence of the Christian God is giving that theology far more credence than it deserves. I don't need a logical argument to explain why I don't believe something humans made up some 2,000 years ago, anymore than I need a logical argument to explain why I don't believe in Zeus or Hermes or Ra or Aztec gods or Etruscan gods or (insert name of thousands of gods throughout human history).

I just don't believe. That's my default state (and always has been). I don't need an argument of facts to justify my disbelief in anything. The burden of proof is entirely on those who believe in something that I don't.

[TigressDem]

29. Some Christians et all DO NOT worry about what you believe or don't.

I don't like to be attacked and made fun of for having an imaginary friend in Jesus..... but I can take a joke and laugh if it's actually appropriate.

As long as no one is telling me I am an awful MAGA because I happen to be a Christian, I'm good.

As it has been said here, you can be an atheist and a decent human being or a Christian and a nasty person. There is the flip side to both those coins as well.

All humanity, all control groups, have pros and cons.

Maybe you've heard this before:

There's a little bit of good in the least of us.
And a little bit of bad in the best of us.
So it hardly behooves any of us
To talk about the rest of us.


Christians and other groups do best when they keep their own behavior in line and don't try to force anyone else to believe/behave as they do.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Random Boomer]

33. My comments were not directed at your or any Christians

I don't argue with Christians about the existence of their god because it's not my place to change their beliefs.

I was speaking to atheists who feel the need to somehow justify their atheism to themselves or other atheists, to find logical arguments for not believing in the Christian deity. To me, that makes as much sense as drafting arguments for why I don't believe in Zeus or a turtle that carries the world on its back. I don't need to argue what to me is obvious, I just don't believe.

[TigressDem]

37. Yeah, that's cool.

I'm doing my best to be supportive of everyone believing what they choose to or choose not to.

In my own way, I want to support atheists in general and here on DU specifically because of the value of this community. AND if we can do it here, maybe we can find a way to push that outward to help our communities and even possibly America with this difficult issue.

In my real life it's easy for people to get it that I'm interested in what they have to say and who they are regardless of their affiliations or lack thereof. Text alone doesn't convey the entire message at times.

I've had so much good experiences with so many types of people that I wish I could find a way to understand how it works and get it out to others so that the possibility of at least allies getting along doesn't seem so far fetched.

Obviously someone lost to MAGA world I would not be able to have a conversation with because their shouting and crazy is too overwhelming. BUT that is more about the behavior that I don't tolerate in my life than someone's personal choice of what they believe.

I am not real fond of Satanic Cults but actually had a reasonable conversation with a person who was a priest in a Satanic group. He wasn't being an ass and honestly said he couldn't get out for some reason that I won't go into here.... but he wanted my help to date my BFF because she was so sweet and innocent she might as well have been a virgin and I told him as nice as he was I doubted it would work.

So why is it that conversations here with atheists seem to fall apart? I don't know. I wish I did.

[Farmer-Rick]

27. It is my experience that this world behaves as if there is no god

Prayer does nothing. God has done nothing in my life. I've seen no evidence of god in other people's lives. Even the kindest, nicest person suffers in this world. Even the nastiest piece of crap gets away with murder.

Nope no evidence of a god. No talking snakes, no magical happenings.

[TigressDem]

30. That's too bad.

However, just as Christians don't need to push our beliefs on you, maybe as one person in the world you don't know that absolutely no other human being has ever had a valid God experience.

But from where you are you know what you know, it works for you and as long as people leave you in peace with that, it's fine.

I know my life and such, but not in the business of trying to sell anyone else on God here.

Just looking to be a calm voice of reason for the other opinion.

My friends that are atheists and pagans etc.... are good people. I respect them. Enjoy their ideas even if they aren't the same as mine. If it works for them, great.

If we were all the same, it would be hella boring.

Ya' know?

[Farmer-Rick]

31. Just saying there is no valid evidence for any god

In the last 2000 years no one has ever presented reliable valid evidence for any god. When religious people give me real evidence of a god, I will believe it. Until then this world behaves as if there is No god and no religious person has ever presented evidence of a god that is not subjective or merely a trick.

And that is the nicest thing I can say about religion because I really believe it is truely evil. But that's a whole nother story.

The US is filled with blowhards trying to force their superstitious religious beliefs on everyone. The "in god we trust" school signs, the "in god we trust" saying on our money, the "under god" in the pledge of allegiance, the stupid prayer breakfasts and prayers at sporting and political events. The commercials and the preacher's. The GOP and all the churches. They are constantly pushing and shoving trying to get their superstious nonsense passed as laws and inculcated into everyone's every day life. The whole unscientific forced birth superstitious nonsense passed by our Supremely Religious Court is the beginnings of a theocracy.

So there is no both sideism or "live and let live". Because the religious just won't leave it alone. They are constantly in your face pushing and lying.

So, I'll tell you what, when the religious stop pushing their religious mythology onto me, I'll stop pushing the FACT that they have no evidence for any god.

You sound like a nice person, who cares about others and I really don't mean to be harsh but If you want respect for the religious, maybe do not go looking for it in the Athiest forum.

[frogmarch]

32. You beat me to it.

"...If you want respect for the religious, maybe do not go looking for it in the Athiest forum."

Welcome to the Atheists & Agnostics Group (New set of rules)

8. While as Progressives, we're pretty tolerant, we're not tolerant of religion apologists.

[TigressDem]

35. Retraction.

Last edited Fri Sep 9, 2022, 10:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Explanation:

I have been frustrated in the past on DU of trying to have a conversation in the Christian Liberal/Progressive forum and having atheists pop in and pull everything apart.

So not necessarily anyone here, now.

My presence here was/is in hope to find a better way to interact. Because in real life, I don't have any problems with atheists or any other flavor except when people attack someone for their beliefs or lack thereof. I have never liked bullying behavior.

I thought I could try to BE THE CHANGE I want to see in others by offering a peaceful, supportive interaction towards atheists by a Christian.

I was trying to show a different side and look for a peaceful solution because in the real world with people I know, I get treated like a person regardless of the color of my skin or my religion or lack thereof.

On DU it would be nice for that to happen and I thought I could be a positive example of a religious person not trying to force anyone to do anything expect respect the fact that we all have rights to believe as we choose to without being ridiculed.

But it seemed like it wasn't working, but maybe I misunderstood some people's intent.

[TigressDem]

36. Oh and I apologize for nothing.

Being who I am and having beliefs different than yours is not something that needs any apology.

[Farmer-Rick]

39. Oh and Religious Apologists aren't really apologizing

It's a set of arguments taught at many religious schools and churches as a way to prevent people from thinking too deeply about their religion. They are taught specific arguments and deflections to justify and cover up the many contradictions of their religious mythology.

This is from wiki so take it as you will.

"Christian apologetics (Ancient Greek: ἀ?????ί?, "verbal defence, speech in defence&quot is a branch of Christian theology that defends Christianity.

Christian apologetics has taken many forms over the centuries, starting with Paul the Apostle in the early church and Patristic writers such as Origen, Augustine of Hippo, Justin Martyr and Tertullian, then continuing with writers such as Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, William of Ockham and Anselm of Canterbury during Scholasticism.

Blaise Pascal was an active Christian apologist during the 17th century. In the modern period, Christianity was defended through the efforts of many authors such as John Henry Newman, G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, as well as G. E. M. Anscombe."

[TigressDem]

42. Well, like I said, I grew up post Vatican 2, so some of that passed by me.

I was also in a progressive church in California.

Some of what these writers have written, Augustine, Aquinas and C. S. Lewis I am somewhat familiar with, but in my church experience (which was liberal AND progressive, not restrictive) we are actually challenged TO THINK about our faith.

Now we aren't necessarily being taught to question our faith to the point of leaving it, because that really wouldn't be a productive use of time for the church. But when we had questions about something, it was ok to ask.

I do remember being in a Bible Study and learning that Paul brought his own filters to his writing. And I was a student of anthropology in high school and college, so I tend to think about how we keep evolving as humans and our understanding is bent around the world we know.

The whole part of the Bible that calls gays an abomination supposedly in the Old Testament written by Leviticus was a man trying to keep his group from joining in a religious sex cult that worshiped idols. Gay sex was the least of the insanity going on at the time. But a small group of people in exile trying to keep their culture and people alive had a certain perspective and it was several thousand years ago. Applying that thinking to live now when countries like China are restricting family size to keep from over population, doesn't make sense. In nature, animals are born with a gay preference when the area is over populated too. It's part of survival mechanisms. So to me, if it happens in nature, it could naturally happen with humans as well.

And when stuff gets conflicting or confusing to me, I go back to "What did Jesus say? What did Jesus do? AND as I believe GOD IS LOVE including discipline and natural consequences I simply do reject anything that tells me to HATE in His name as a human misunderstanding of the message."

My fanatical Christian counterparts like me even less than they do atheists, I guess. But it keeps me clear and focused and able to walk in the world with all kinds of people and enjoy the experience for the most part.

[TigressDem]

34. My only point was to potentially have an open mind.

I do have experiences that prove to me there is a higher power and have researched and found many indications of these things around the world.

Now for you it may be as silly as evidence of big foot and I get that.

But the idea is that if you want to be respected and simply allowed to freely live without judgement for NOT being a Christian, maybe treat others as you'd like to be treated is a possible method.

Again my friends of all different backgrounds get respect from me and give it back without regards to anything except how I behave toward them. If I make a stupid mistake, I get the riot act for the behavior, but not simply because I'm a Christian in a nation that has turned that into a pile of shit.

Just something to think about.

The atheists I know have the tendency to think things through so I thought appealing to reason on this forum might generate a bit of peace between the groups at least here on DU.

[Farmer-Rick]

38. Geez, I wasn't trying to be insulting, honestly

I was trying to be fair to you. I didn't want to get you upset because you seem like a kind person who cares about others.

OK, I'll stay off the religious forum but I don't usually go there expecting respect for atheism. I know I'll get hammered there.

But, ok, if you want this atheist to keep away, fine.

I don't mind arguing with you here on this forum. But I just wanted to point out that it was the Atheist Forum and nothing about religion is respected here. I like a good argument. I'm an ENTP on the Myers Briggs, so arguing is almost a sport for me.

A lot of atheist have been abused by cults, religion and religious people using god to control them. Some of us have a gut response to the you-do-yours-and-I'll-do-mine platitudes some religious people try to put forth.

It usually means keep your atheism to yourself while
we turn a blind eye to all the religions pushing their theology into our laws and schools and public spaces. It's not an uncommon tactic to get atheist to quit fighting back.

So, sorry to put you off. Stick around if you like a good argument.

[TigressDem]

41. Hmmm, text alone doesn't convey all. If felt like a push away. Thanks for the explanation.

Last edited Fri Sep 9, 2022, 10:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Guess I meant about the times atheists got on other threads where people were having conversations and picking it apart.

And again, I like people with brains and a lot of atheists fit that description. So don't go away.

I had a friend in UK who couldn't deal with her family's religious stuff and it got her into depression and even suicidal thinking. I accepted that what they tried to shove down her throat wasn't right. Talked her off the ledge many times, not with God, but with an understanding of her strengths when she felt they were gone, sharing coping strategies, ways to let go and listening when others walked away. She was there for me too. She was a great Mom finding ways to take care of them until her health deteriorated to the point her kids were taken by social services. She couldn't even get herself to the restroom at one point. But she still loved them fiercely and they knew it.

So when I say atheism isn't a deal breaker for me, I mean it.

I prefer to share ideas rather than have people "tell me how it is" and "that's it" instead of, this is how I see it and being open to others having their own ideas.

If you think about how life "is" according to the laws of physics, then it's mostly true until you get to the quantum level and shit gets bizarre.

To me, I like to hear what people think and get to know them. But for them to tell me their truth is the only truth is kinda like trying to sell religion too in a way.

I get that if you take away a lot of the religious and spiritual aspects, the world functions and life goes on and government should stay on that level and not get involved in all the various aspects beyond providing a safe and prosperous environment for its citizens.

But personally, I like the idea of there being more to life than that. I am an ENFJ - whatever that means, but I enjoy finding ways to meet new and interesting people.

[Farmer-Rick]

43. Yeah, I wish the world acted as if there was a god

Hopefully not a cruel, heartless god like the god of the old testament who kept killing people. It would be cool if a god actually did answer prayers.

If you ever read Science Fiction, read some of Ted Chiang's short stories. He did one where a hidden god did affect the world. The earth was only thousands of years old. Interesting reading.

You are a feeler, I thought you might be. Our 2 personality types frequently misunderstand each other. I use thinking as my main approach to the world. You use feeling. I'll have to look up the other personality traits.

[TigressDem]

44. Things have gotten really chaotic and it's hard to construct Democracy or moral guidelines even.

Because people are freaked out (being fed all kinds of reasons to hate and distrust each other) and that lends to destructive behavior that rips everything apart as soon as someone starts to build anything up that could be beneficial.

Biden has put through so many constructive solutions and look at how much attacking there is of working to actually MAKE AMERICA BETTER.

There have been people stepping up and doing good for Ukraine and in many of these disaster situations but everyone is so overwhelmed by the negativity barrage, it's like trying to sort blocks under a waterfall.

And honestly unless tRump and his accomplices are locked up and we get a REAL majority in the House, Senate and keep the White House, it does not look good for Democracy or common sense rebuilding of anything.

[TigressDem]

45. Oh, ENFJ

Extrovert
iNtuitive
Feeler
Judger

Extrovert is easy.
Intuitive is that my gut instincts are usually correct even if I don't always know why.
Feeler does lend me to approach the world hopefully with love and kindness, but I can be somewhat empathic and suck up negativity that isn't inherently mine too.
And Judger is based on how I treat myself. I expect a lot of myself and when things don't get done, I am uncomfortable or depressed about it.

Good thing is, if I make a list (no matter how long) as soon as I start checking things off as done, my mood improves. Silly I know.

[Farmer-Rick]

46. Sounds like you have a handle on it

But since you won't argue with me, I'm going to find someone who will.

Just kidding, somewhat. I like to argue but as long as there are no personal attacks. People who insult and give negative connotations to your motives in an argument are more interested in fighting and belittling then in discussing facts. That's why using block can be helpful.

[TigressDem]

47. We can call it a spirited discussion.

Disagree all you want, but I agree, no personal attacks.

Did you hear they are again questioning if "black holes" actually exist?

I would say the way gravity acts in those areas is pretty empirical, but what do I know?