A respectful question for Hillary supporters...

[TCJ70]

...It's been a common thread throughout the campaign that Bernie would be trounced by Republican attacks against him. Does seeing him in this debate, if you watched it, alleviate any of that fear? He was fairly aggressive and definitely called out the BS when he saw it necessary quite successfully.

As an olive branch, I'll concede foreign policy, where Clinton is far more well-versed and practiced. I agree with Bernie's positions on it being more of a regional issue, but she's just way better at discussing the issues.

[Recursion]

1. I think we are, infuriatingly, down to the two candidates with the worst baggage

Never underestimate the power of the Democratic party to shoot itself in the foot, and then again in the face while inspecting the barrel to see what went wrong.

It's going to be a tough election for any Dem, but I'm personally getting it down to whose baggage will be slightly easier to haul in November. And I'm still not sure.

[TCJ70]

2. Follow-up, if I can...

...what do you see as Sander's baggage?

[ucrdem]

4. Bernie voted to fund Iraq war on the same day he voted against the AUMF.

There goes his moral high ground.

[restorefreedom]

9. failing to fund troops already committed is reckless and reprehensible

that is NOT the same as sending them to war in the first place.

FAIL

[TCJ70]

11. Was he supposed to leave the men and women...

...foolishly sent to war high and dry? That doesn't sound like good judgement to me.

[Rockyj]

31. So Bernie cares more about our young men & women...

BECAUSE HE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ELSE TO SUPPORT OUR CHILDREN BECAUSE CONGRESS WHICH INCLUDES HILLARY that SENT THEM TO THIS DESERT DEATH TRAP CHANGED OUR SERVICE MEN & WOMEN LIVES FOREVER!

[kath]

37. Do you really not comprehend that that money was for things like body armor and other supplies for

The troops, even though that has been explained MULTIPLE, MULTIPLE times here??

SHEESH.

[Recursion]

8. He's a thousand years old, for one

Both him and Clinton are older than my retired parents.

"Looking Presidential" is always about balancing home-spun folksiness with gravitas, and he's all yin and no yang there.

He doesn't really speak at all to Americans who are more or less satisfied with their lives but want to tweak some things (and that's more people than Sanders supporters seem to think it is).

He's said on camera "yes I will raise your taxes", and the electorate doesn't have the attention span to process the other half of that.

He's very good at telling aggrieved UMC white people what they want to hear, but doesn't seem to be able to talk to other groups as well, even the poor whites he's calling the electoral lynchpin.

[TCJ70]

20. Thanks for answering...

...did you happen to watch the town hall last night? The question of taxes came up and when explained that the tax increase for the healthcare plan would remove insurance premiums, the questioner basically said I'd gladly pay a little more in taxes to not pay a ton to insurance companies. People will get it and just as tonight showed, the fewer people on stage, the more time there is to flesh things out.

I don't know what UMC stands for, but I feel Sanders message cuts across all kinds of boundaries and tonight he had a good chance to really express it. Injustice and governmental corruption affects all groups, some more disproportionately than other, but it's a big theme of his campaign. Time to get the message out there more.

[Out of Time Man]

33. I think...

UMC might stand for "upper-middle class", though I am not entirely sure myself.

[wilsonbooks]

35. He doesn't really speak at all to Americans who are more or less satisfied with their lives but want

to tweak some things (and that's more people than Sanders supporters seem to think it is).

Most people realize that the middle class is in danger of disappearing and that for millions of people it has already disappeared. For many of us bankruptcy is just a medical emergency away.


Yes there some people who are comfortable, but that is not true for most Americans.

[Dem2]

6. Sadly, I agree

I feel like the Democrats are in for a long, hard fight and may lose next fall. The only positive is the Republican candidates are a mix of misfits who will also shoot themselves in the foot.

[Fearless]

12. Worst baggage? Bernie has been in politics for forty years WITHOUT scandal.

[Recursion]

14. And there's a lot more to baggage than scandals (nt)

[Fearless]

18. Do tell.

[moriah]

36. .... Mother Jones fortunately got the worst out of the way, at least for liberals...

... last year, but seeing my RW friends share out attacks on a certain little 1972 article has led to some interesting conversations about why, as a feminist, I'm neither offended nor do I think he was entirely wrong.

In fact, I had very nearly the same conversation with a man as described, 26 years later. He was being too controlling -- I was all of 18, had loved him and didn't want to live with my parents so moved out with him to BFE (though I did have a relative in walking distance, it would have been about a 25-30 minute walk). There was a daytime job opening at a very safe gas station in the small town, and I wanted to work -- had every summer since I was 15 with a special permit. He wanted to be the provider, though, so I decided I didn't mind staying home if it was important to him, and was able to help his roommates with their little girl. He also was friendly with some neighbors, so I wasn't entirely isolated.

But the thing that made me dump him was when he refused to let me see, after several months, a woman who went to high school with my mother, who was like a second mother to me. Because she knew him through the SCA, and he knew she didn't like him much.

What he didn't know was that my older sister got married at 18, moved to BFE with the person everyone thought was okay for her (and when they started to have doubts, knew better than to say anything until she voiced them herself), wasn't allowed to work, and then he didn't want her to see important people to her... specifically, that specific woman and her sister (who lived across the street from my Mom throughout our childhood. She accepted it, then he started hitting her.

I was adamant. This wasn't another man, this was someone who might as well be family. Do you not trust my love for you, to think she can influence me? He didn't. Then finally when he realized that I wasn't giving in, issued a verbal slap:

"Well, okay, if you insist I'll take you, but then I'm going to the titty bar." Now, I have nothing against men going to clubs like that on general principles, but I took it for the breakup line it provided as well as the knowledge that he meant it to hurt my feelings as I didn't have a great body image... And said "Good, because you aren't seeing these titties again."

When we fought about it after I got back from seeing my friend, because he was apologizing but I was DONE, I explained the history. He was upset that I classed him in with the same type of man who hit my sister, then when she left tried to kidnap her off our front porch while she had a sprained ankle -- I was calling the cops while watching her 97-lb self beat the HELL out of him with her crutches....

And I explained that he if he didn't trust my feelings for him, how could he really love me? That even if he would never hit me, he couldn't control me and I wasn't going to let it happen!

And he said I was full of shit, and we never had sex again, even though the sex had been very good.

[Agschmid]

16. Lincoln Chaffee is that you?

[Fearless]

17. Would you rather he be?

I mean clearly based on your responses you think he's a better candidate.

[Agschmid]

19. No... Lincoln Chaffee was just about he worst candidate.

You quoted him, pretty much word for word in your post.

[Fearless]

21. That is the anthesis of the claim in the previous poster

If Bernie and Hillary are the worst because of "baggage" wouldn't that make Chaffee the best?

[Agschmid]

22. FFS. Did you watch the first debate?

If not this conversation is going to go no where...

[Fearless]

25. I understand your reference and posed you a simple question

If both Hillary and Bernie have too much baggage and therefore are the worst candidates as YOU have suggested, then it stands to reason that the person with the "least baggage" would be the best candidate... Which YOU posited was Lincoln Chaffee.

So, either you are contradicting your ORIGINAL statement to me or you are contradicting your latter statement to me.

Either they do have the worst baggage and therefore are bad candidates

OR

Because Lincoln Chaffee has the least baggage, it is yet irrelevant, as he is actually the worst candidate.

So which one of your statements is true and which one is false. Both cannot stand as they are diametric opposites.

[Agschmid]

29. What the hell?

Is "up" "down" tonight and someone forgot to clue me in?

I posted... "Lincoln Chafee was the worst candidate"

Where do you get me saying he was the best, or had the least baggage? I didn't say that in any post, nor was it inferred.

Both our candidates are great, neither candidate has been a part of an actual scandal. Sure people have attempted to just blatantly make shit up against one of them, but an actual scandal? Nothing yet.

I think I'm done DU'ing for the night.

This place just doesn't make sense anymore.

[Fearless]

30. You supported the statement that the candidates with the most baggage are poorest choices

Further you agreed that a candidate with the least baggage would make the best candidate.

That I surmised was Lincoln Chaffee... to which you agreed.

So is he or is he not the best candidate by YOUR definition?

Or does your definition not hold up to scrutiny?

[Agschmid]

32. Can't type...

My mouth is stuffed full of words I never said. Sorry.

[Recursion]

38. I still don't see why you surmised that

You really think Chaffee had the least baggage of our actual and potential slate? That's mind-boggling.

[Recursion]

27. Chaffee would have been interesting but probably a worse choice than either Clinton or Sanders

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I don't think Chaffee has baggage from.

[Fearless]

28. I agree with you, he is a terrible candidate.

Chaffee himself said he didn't have baggage.

[ucrdem]

3. Hillary is playing very nicely. Trump/Rubio/Cruz would get down in the mud right of the gate. nt

[uponit7771]

5. Second thing I changed my mind on, I thought Trump would walk all over the guy.. .he's soldier about

... trade and some other issues.

I think he'd kick Trump in his nuts on the debate stage if given a chance...

Honestly, its harder to see what they're TRULY passionate for when they're not off the cuff like they were tonight.

Before their message was too polished when 11234 other people are standing on stage... I think tonight they didn't have a chance to polish answers and the gloves were off and they still respected each other in the end.

On FP, I think Sanders will catch up quick... sounds like a smart guy... Trump wouldn't be any better and Cruz is a fuckin idiot...

[moriah]

7. Honestly, my only concern...

... is that people are already somewhat immune to the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy against Hillary and the smears...

But Bernie doesn't even identify as a Social Democrat, but as a Democratic Socialist. There is a huge difference between the two -- particularly on how they address capitalism, which in the General will be a HUGE attack strategy that the average uninformed voter isn't going to understand but if he at least said he was a "Social Democrat", which is more in line with what Hillary said about the need to "save capitalism from itself"...

Basically, the uninformed electorate who already believes Hillary is the devil incarnate are known and won't change. The number of the uninformed electorate who will be inflamed by the fact he admits he supports democratic government with a socialist economy, rather than welfare-based socialism within a capitalist economy... it's unknown.

[TCJ70]

13. I think Bernie's message is well suited to the uninformed electorate...

...in that it really boils down to three points:
- Government is way too oriented away from the general public
- Get involved, stay involved
- We can and will improve this country together

Those are messages that cross any boundary you can think of: race, gender, income level (except the people at the top, but that's kind of a given). I'm glad Bernie had a chance to tonight to flesh that out more and I think it will garner him much more attention from people who have already written him off.

[moriah]

26. If the poorest counties in Arkansas...

... voted to get all our Blue representatives and Senators out by the highest margins, and voted against their own interests countless times, because of God and Guns...

Do you think they're going to vote for a candidate who wants us to go towards what WILL be painted as "Godless communism"?

[DanTex]

10. For me, yes. He did well. Much better than last night, IMO, and that goes for Hillary also.

I'm still worried about the socialism thing, in terms of electability. I'm not sure what could alleviate my fears about that. But he showed a lot tonight.

[Pisces]

15. I think 2 career politicians should be great debaters. I think Sanders did great, but

Hillary was better. She sealed her Presidential gravitas with this debate. Many voters do not watch debates. In the general election I think Sanders would have no chance because he will have the Socialist smear used against him. Those that don't pay attention which is the majority would automatically be against him. People are also afraid and Sanders does not inspire fear or authority. This fear is what is giving Trump his leg up on the Repub field. She kills it in foreign policy. More than anything terrorism is at the top of people's list.

[LannyDeVaney]

24. I love his ideas ...

and if I could appoint the POTUS, I would appoint him.

However, to answer your question, no. His self-identification as a democratic socialist guarantees he would lose a general election. This is my opinion.

Addendum: Tonight was a GREAT debate - a tremendous contrast to Republican debates - a discussion of contrasts, they both answered the questions, no personal insults ... GREAT stuff.

But no, my opinion hasn't changed. Senator Sanders would not win the GE, imo.

[KentuckyWoman]

34. Baggage

I support Bernie because I think his policies will actually help me and mine... IF he can get them done. Will vote Hillary without holding my nose but only because I think she'll hurt my family less that the Republicans.

As far as vulnerabilities, anything the Republican throw will be monkey poop. That's it. They would not know a substantive difference of opinion if it bit them on their butts. They'll just make shit up and call it a fact.

As for genuine shortcomings I think Bernie's biggest is that getting his ideas implemented will require American people to keep holding their reps feet to the fire over the course of 4-8 years. I don't see that happening. Most people are doing laundry at weird hours and eating on the run because they work a ridiculous amount of hours just trying to keep Ramen in the pantry. Everyone got all excited for Obama too and then in short order started bitching because all by himself he didn't get everything done while they went back to whatever diversion keeps them sane. I believe the swing voters who want what he preaches may not take the plunge and go for whatever they think they sanest choice is on the Republican side in primaries and in the general.

For Hillary, I think her biggest baggage is being Hillary. There's nothing quite like the weird burning hate of all things Hillary to get wingnuts to show up on election day. Otherwise she's a known entity. Whatever shortcomings she may have don't matter anymore because we've all been looking at them for 20 years or more.

[mikehiggins]

39. Just as an aside, the US population is NOT stupid.

If that was the case the GOPukes would not be so determine to keep people from voting. Certainly the 1% and their quisling supporters have pushed this idea for some time, and lots seem to be agreeing with them. Bunk.

Bernie is saying the system and the banks are screwing the middle class out of existence and even the most gun loving and God-fearing Americans can hear the truth in what he's saying. What they haven't been given over the years is a stone-cold radical willing to go to the mattress for them, for the millions of kids living in poverty, for the Vets homeless on the streets, for the idea that human beings are more than economic units to be disposed of at will by the rich and powerful.

Do you really think that kind of a campaign is going to falter because a bunch of old folks still thinks there's a Red under every Bed? Not anymore. Now there is the Internet and all the other drastic changes in our society to contend with, and anyone at all concerned with what is happening to them doesn't have to wait for NBC or ABC to tell them the truth.

What was it George Carlin said? That this country is run by a club and you ain't in it?

I'd bet he'd be talking up Bernie Sanders all the time, if he was still among us.

The times they are a changin.

[TCJ70]

40. Agreed, Sanders message has a much...

...broader appeal than anyone is giving him credit for. It's time to make that clear and I think he started doing that last night.