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It seems to really bother people when women just mention (Original Post) boston bean Feb 2016 OP
I see what you mean but thereismore Feb 2016 #1
It's always the same response. Beacool Feb 2016 #2
I guarantee we will . . . just not this one. Ed Suspicious Feb 2016 #4
And I guarantee that the next president won't be the "Democratic Socialist". Beacool Feb 2016 #10
And we could go around on both scores all day long. Would you settle for an "agree to disagree?" Ed Suspicious Feb 2016 #13
further supporting the point of the OP DrDan Feb 2016 #71
I've mentioned before that the Sanders team is endearing Clinton to the others because of uponit7771 Feb 2016 #3
Yes. Clinton and her supporters are all persecuted victims of "tone". mhatrw Feb 2016 #31
Not just tone, shit... I wish it was just tone... No, it's the minimizing of her 11 out of 50 uponit7771 Feb 2016 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author cui bono Feb 2016 #48
No one has said that, and she IS the establishment in the Democratic Party Fearless Feb 2016 #5
She's tried in the past.... TipTok Feb 2016 #77
True, didn't make it accurate though Fearless Feb 2016 #79
How ironic for Hillary Clinton to whine about being locked out of the "establishment" tularetom Feb 2016 #6
There has been a woman president? boston bean Feb 2016 #7
The establishment is about power, it is only secondarily about gender. She used gender to dodge the JudyM Feb 2016 #8
Uh huh. Says you. I disagree. I see a bias and a ceiling due to gender. boston bean Feb 2016 #12
You don't think she is part of DC establishment politics? JudyM Feb 2016 #16
You don't think she faces bias, sexism due to he sex? boston bean Feb 2016 #19
That is a separate issue, and yes is my answer. JudyM Feb 2016 #21
It is not separate. boston bean Feb 2016 #24
Sorry to see that you don't acknowledge that the most powerful woman in the country is part of JudyM Feb 2016 #32
Bernie Sanders is a member of the same Establishment he criticizes Clinton and her endorses of Empowerer Feb 2016 #62
Sure, he is employed in the establishment, but his views are decidedly independent. He is anti-estab JudyM Feb 2016 #65
He doesn't determine membership in the "Establishment" but the views held by the individuals he's Empowerer Feb 2016 #67
LOL. Literally. nt. polly7 Feb 2016 #66
people who marginalize the others minimize their oppression to. uponit7771 Feb 2016 #39
Gender is power, no secondarily about it Hekate Feb 2016 #74
Forget it, it's impossible to argue with someone so irony-deprived tularetom Feb 2016 #9
You think "the establishment" consists of only people that have been President? n/t PoliticAverse Feb 2016 #11
Actually, no I don't. boston bean Feb 2016 #15
Has there been a Jew??? catnhatnh Feb 2016 #18
Bernie Sanders is a long-standing charter member of one of the most exclusive clubs in the country Empowerer Feb 2016 #63
So to get a women president gabeana Feb 2016 #27
Please list how many women presidents have we had in this country? Beacool Feb 2016 #14
"The establishment" does not consist of only people that have become President. n/t PoliticAverse Feb 2016 #17
Please inform me how only presidents can be part of the "establishment" tularetom Feb 2016 #20
In a presidential race a woman is inherently not part of the establishment because Beacool Feb 2016 #29
Nah, you're still saying the same thing tularetom Feb 2016 #37
It means that in a presidential election a woman is in a different position from the rest Beacool Feb 2016 #41
Everything you said in that post is true, but tularetom Feb 2016 #44
You too. Beacool Feb 2016 #49
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Feb 2016 #22
^^^THIS^^^ beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #23
Count me as a woman who is offended when Clinton mentions her gender as a reason to vote ... slipslidingaway Feb 2016 #25
Thats not what happened though. boston bean Feb 2016 #30
My recollection is that is exactly what she did tonight. nt slipslidingaway Feb 2016 #33
It's a wrong recollection. boston bean Feb 2016 #35
She plays the gender card when convenient and I find that offensive. nt slipslidingaway Feb 2016 #36
Nah. boston bean Feb 2016 #40
We disagree and leave it at that, yes it bothers me when she plays the gender card. nt slipslidingaway Feb 2016 #42
Yes, she does. And so do her supporters. cui bono Feb 2016 #46
Guess I am an old school feminist, I hate when she plays on her gender to get votes ... slipslidingaway Feb 2016 #50
Yep. cui bono Feb 2016 #51
No, it's not. And it's an insult to and setback for the women's movement. n/t cui bono Feb 2016 #47
Yes. Considering Clinton a member of the establishment and a woman is SEXIST!!! mhatrw Feb 2016 #26
You might enjoy this article: kath Feb 2016 #81
Thanks. I had not seen that. nt mhatrw Feb 2016 #82
Please don't confuse "women" with Secretary Clinton. Thank you. JackRiddler Feb 2016 #28
Similar to when people get furious about discussions of racism BainsBane Feb 2016 #34
Exactly!! Beacool Feb 2016 #43
^^^^^THIS^^^^^ Hekate Feb 2016 #75
It is bothersome to this feminist when it is used as an excuse, when it is done in such a way as to cui bono Feb 2016 #45
Thank you! The whole goal of the feminist movement was to move away from gender. jillan Feb 2016 #86
And what is most disturbing is that the most vocal, staunch, supposed feminists on DU cui bono Feb 2016 #87
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Feb 2016 #89
Exacltly! nt slipslidingaway Feb 2016 #91
At $250k per hour Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #52
Privilege? I don't know what was dropped in her lap. And she suffers with comparison to bettyellen Feb 2016 #53
Yeah, poor Hillary Art_from_Ark Feb 2016 #54
The Clintons are both extremely talented. Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #58
It's also absurd to claim that Sander is not a member of the Establishment Empowerer Feb 2016 #64
Your claim is absurd. Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #68
Three hours later and the crickets have moved in. GoneOffShore Feb 2016 #73
A few months ago... MrWendel Feb 2016 #55
Elizabeth Warren? THAT Warren? The same Warren from whom they ... NurseJackie Feb 2016 #56
I can't help but wonder what these posts would look like if Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2016 #57
Not surprising though. ismnotwasm Feb 2016 #59
K&R mcar Feb 2016 #60
Of course it does. Women have ALWAYS been charter members of the Establishment Empowerer Feb 2016 #61
She has done this SO many times. Like a crutch. She wants to run the military closeupready Feb 2016 #69
You made up stuff --then believe in your myths. riversedge Feb 2016 #70
Whine, whine, whine - just like Ann Romney. Has ZERO closeupready Feb 2016 #72
Warren Buffett advocates that the rich pay their fair share of taxes emulatorloo Feb 2016 #78
If you get paid $675,000 to give three speeches to Goldman Sachs, it's safe to say ... RufusTFirefly Feb 2016 #76
Women have been historically locked out of the power of the establishment. cyberswede Feb 2016 #80
Locked out? If that's the case, why does Hillary describe the 90's with "WE"? cherokeeprogressive Feb 2016 #83
Hillary is no friend to working class women. Odin2005 Feb 2016 #84
Huh? Where have you seen that? nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #85
Yes women have been locked out of the power of the establishment. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #88
Are you guys going to campaign the rest of the primaries solely on smears and the sexism charge? Betty Karlson Feb 2016 #90

thereismore

(13,326 posts)
1. I see what you mean but
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 12:47 AM
Feb 2016

that particular woman making those statements has not been locked out of power, in fact, she had prominent positions of power.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
2. It's always the same response.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 12:47 AM
Feb 2016

We want a woman president, but...........

Well, I think that they are still going to get one.

uponit7771

(90,339 posts)
3. I've mentioned before that the Sanders team is endearing Clinton to the others because of
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 12:47 AM
Feb 2016

... their condescending responses to her.

We'll know after SC... but to some degree it sounds like the tone of his campaign is turning off 4 of the five parts of the Obama coallition

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
31. Yes. Clinton and her supporters are all persecuted victims of "tone".
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:18 AM
Feb 2016

Anybody who has the gall to publicly express her or his political disagreement with Clinton or her supporters is by definition racist and sexist.

uponit7771

(90,339 posts)
38. Not just tone, shit... I wish it was just tone... No, it's the minimizing of her 11 out of 50
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:39 AM
Feb 2016

... liberal rating in congress.

People can say what they want there're not going to say Clinton is rightward... she has the scares to show it, Sanders agrees.

Response to uponit7771 (Reply #3)

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
5. No one has said that, and she IS the establishment in the Democratic Party
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 12:49 AM
Feb 2016

No one disputes that. Not even her.

 

TipTok

(2,474 posts)
77. She's tried in the past....
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:27 PM
Feb 2016

Something along the lines of 'I'm not part of the establishment because I'm a woman'...

Wish I could remember which speech that was. Maybe a debate...

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
6. How ironic for Hillary Clinton to whine about being locked out of the "establishment"
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 12:49 AM
Feb 2016

Its almost comical.

JudyM

(29,248 posts)
8. The establishment is about power, it is only secondarily about gender. She used gender to dodge the
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 12:57 AM
Feb 2016

Obvious meaning of the question.

JudyM

(29,248 posts)
16. You don't think she is part of DC establishment politics?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:01 AM
Feb 2016

She was a senator and FLOTUS and SOS. She is receiving tens of millions of dollars from Wall Street and big biz. She charges a ton of money for speeches. Etc.

JudyM

(29,248 posts)
32. Sorry to see that you don't acknowledge that the most powerful woman in the country is part of
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:20 AM
Feb 2016

Our establishment. She wheels and deals with the best of them.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
62. Bernie Sanders is a member of the same Establishment he criticizes Clinton and her endorses of
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:28 AM
Feb 2016

belonging to.

And he's been part of that establishment a lot longer than she has...

But now he's pretending that he doesn't belong to one of the most exclusive clubs in the world...

JudyM

(29,248 posts)
65. Sure, he is employed in the establishment, but his views are decidedly independent. He is anti-estab
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:34 AM
Feb 2016

blishment.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
67. He doesn't determine membership in the "Establishment" but the views held by the individuals he's
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:43 AM
Feb 2016

criticizing. He very clearly defines the "Establishment" as including people in certain positions, regardless of their views. By his own definition, he is a member of the Establishment, regardless of his views.

If you dismiss people as "Establishment" solely because they happen to be a governor or mayor or senator or Member of Congress without pointing to any view theirs that otherwise qualify them to be defined as such and you yourself have spent the last 35 years as a mayor, Senator and Member of Congress, you cannot then claim that you aren't in the Establishment because your views make you "anti-establishment."

If you join a country club you can't claim you're not really a member just because you complain about the country clubs rules.

catnhatnh

(8,976 posts)
18. Has there been a Jew???
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:02 AM
Feb 2016

But of course admitting that either Democratic candidate would be a first just fucks up your narrative.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
63. Bernie Sanders is a long-standing charter member of one of the most exclusive clubs in the country
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:30 AM
Feb 2016

You can't get around that - he can point his finger all he wants, but he's parked himself right in the middle of that club and fully enjoys it's benefits without any apparent hesitation or feelings of guilt.

So all of the "she's a member of the Establishment" crap is just that.

gabeana

(3,166 posts)
27. So to get a women president
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:13 AM
Feb 2016

we should vote for any women that is running
so in a hypothetical if Sarah or Carly got the repug nomination, those of us that want a women president should vote for them if they were running against a male Dem?

So we can have a women prez?

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
20. Please inform me how only presidents can be part of the "establishment"
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:04 AM
Feb 2016

She's extremely disingenuous to be playing the "outsider" role.

And you also should know better than to ask that question.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
29. In a presidential race a woman is inherently not part of the establishment because
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:16 AM
Feb 2016

there has never been a woman president. Her election would be just as historical as president Obama's was in 2008.

I support Hillary because I think that she is the best qualified person running for president, but my heart fills with pride at the thought that we could finally have a woman president. Just like AA were filled with pride when Obama won the presidency.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
37. Nah, you're still saying the same thing
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:32 AM
Feb 2016

You do not have to be president to be part of the establishment. Is VP Biden part of the establishment? How about John Boner? Mitch McConnell? Jeb Bush? All of them are part of the establishment.

You want to talk women? Is Condolleeza Rice part of the establishment? Madeline Albright? Senator Feinstein? These ladies are definitely part of the establishment.

If you were a former first lady, US Senator and Secretary of State over the past 25 years, you are part of the establishment.



It's a big club and you ain't in it. None of us out here are. But Hillary Clinton? She's definitely in it.

Beacool

(30,247 posts)
41. It means that in a presidential election a woman is in a different position from the rest
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:48 AM
Feb 2016

of the candidates by the mere fact that she would be the first of her kind, if she were to win. The expectations and focus on a woman candidate are different than on the men.

President Obama said it best a couple of weeks ago:

“The truth is, in 2007 and 2008, sometimes my supporters and my staff, I think, got too huffy about what were legitimate questions she was raising,” Obama said. “And there were times where I think the media probably was a little unfair to her and tilted a little my way in calling her out.”

Obama said Clinton “had a tougher job” throughout 2008 primary than he did.

“She had to do everything that I had to do, except, like Ginger Rogers, backwards in heels,” he said. “She had to wake up earlier than I did because she had to get her hair done. She had to, you know, handle all the expectations that were placed on her.”

He added: “Had things gone a little bit different in some states or if the sequence of primaries and caucuses been a little different, she could have easily won.”

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
44. Everything you said in that post is true, but
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:07 AM
Feb 2016

none of it has any impact at all on the original post, my response to it and your first response to me, namely the question of whether or not a former first lady, US Senator and Secretary of State is part of the establishment.

Sorry, but she. is. part. of. the. f@#$ing. establishment.

I have to go now, we're taking our great grandkids skiing, and I need to get some sleep. You have a nice evening.

Response to boston bean (Original post)

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
25. Count me as a woman who is offended when Clinton mentions her gender as a reason to vote ...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:10 AM
Feb 2016

for her and then also uses her gender to try and silence a male opponent.







cui bono

(19,926 posts)
46. Yes, she does. And so do her supporters.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:23 AM
Feb 2016

There's an OP right now where someone thinks they "figured it out" when in fact all they are doing is playing the gender card in defense of their chosen one and making a mockery of feminism and real problems that women face. They actually think that Hillary is being criticized for taking all that speaking money from Goldman Sachs just because she's a woman who dares to make that much money for speaking engagements. And zealots are reccing that pos.

.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
50. Guess I am an old school feminist, I hate when she plays on her gender to get votes ...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:32 AM
Feb 2016

unfortunately we had the same reaction when anyone criticized Obama as some said any disagreement on policy was racist.







mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
26. Yes. Considering Clinton a member of the establishment and a woman is SEXIST!!!
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:11 AM
Feb 2016

Play that victim card yet again. Political criticisms of Clinton and her supporters are always by definition racist and sexist.

"You cannot call a member of the establishment a member of the establishment without disempowering all women everywhere." Clinton Campaign

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
34. Similar to when people get furious about discussions of racism
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:22 AM
Feb 2016

toward African Americans and other people of color. Talking about something represents a challenge; enforcing silence enables subjugation to continue.




Beacool

(30,247 posts)
43. Exactly!!
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:03 AM
Feb 2016

Why is it so hard for some people to understand how much it would mean for many women (not all, of course) to have a woman elected president? To finally break that glass ceiling.

To a lot of women around the world Hillary is an icon. I recall when she traveled as SOS how many women would want to meet her. It was touching how some of them had copies of her 1995 speech in Beijing. Hillary went to places where no SOS would normally go. For example, she went to an orphanage in Cambodia that the government tried to keep out of sight because it took in girls that had been in the sex trade. She brought it to the forefront. Trip after trip she insisted on making similar visits.

https://secretaryclinton.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/secretary-of-state-hillary-clinton-in-cambodia-pledging-to-continue-fighting-sexual-slavery/

I am proud to support Hillary and it's my fervent hope that she becomes president.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
45. It is bothersome to this feminist when it is used as an excuse, when it is done in such a way as to
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:20 AM
Feb 2016

be playing the gender card. It undermines feminism itself. There's an idiotic OP in the Hillary group now which I saw since it's on the greatest page and it is so insulting to feminism as it actually says that the reason Hillary is getting flack for taking all that money from Goldman Sachs as speaking fees is because she is a woman who is making that much money. How ridiculous. And they actually thought they had figured it out and used logic.

That kind of distorted thinking that people do just to prop up their chosen one is detrimental to real feminism. It's an insult to women who are actually struggling against oppression.

Yes, women have it harder than men in all areas, establishment or working class, but when the gender card is played as an excuse, when there is no sexism at all involved, it is being used for contrary reasons and results that set back the women's movement and make a mockery of it.

.

jillan

(39,451 posts)
86. Thank you! The whole goal of the feminist movement was to move away from gender.
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 02:54 AM
Feb 2016

These threads are the exact opposite.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
87. And what is most disturbing is that the most vocal, staunch, supposed feminists on DU
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 03:31 AM
Feb 2016

are the ones I have seen playing the gender card.

.

Response to cui bono (Reply #87)

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
52. At $250k per hour
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:36 AM
Feb 2016

on the speaking tour, claiming she isn't part of the Establishment is way beyond ludicrous.

She is subject to sexism, especially from the GOP and critons like Tweety, but her privilege as a super-elite is something almost no one on the planet experiences.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
53. Privilege? I don't know what was dropped in her lap. And she suffers with comparison to
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:39 AM
Feb 2016

her husband as much as she benefits from it. She is not Bill.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
54. Yeah, poor Hillary
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:54 AM
Feb 2016

She had to suffer the indignity of living in Fayetteville, Arkansas for a year before landing a job as a corporate lawyer in Little Rock, then moving into the governor's mansion a couple of years after that, and spending 12 of the next 14 years as the governor's wife rubbing shoulders with the state's richest Republicans, then moving on to the White House for 8 years, then moving into one of the poshest neighborhoods in suburban New York after that.

Poor, poor Hillary!

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
58. The Clintons are both extremely talented.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:57 AM
Feb 2016

Nobody gave them political power (Al From is another topic). They have "earned" what they have in power and wealth, as opposed to legacies like W and Trump. But uber-privilege it is nonetheless. Is she exposed to sexism and RW attacks? Of course. But it is absurd to claim she is not a member of the Establishment. She's not just a member, she is a leader, as evidenced by the lavish Wall Street contributions.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
64. It's also absurd to claim that Sander is not a member of the Establishment
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:33 AM
Feb 2016

Last night he dismissed her endorsers as "Establishment" solely by virtue of the fact that they are governors, mayors, Members of Congress and Senators - when he has held three of those four positions, exclusively with no other employment over the past 35 years and ran unsuccessfully for the fourth.

He is a charter member of the Establishment he claims to so despise.

Admiral Loinpresser

(3,859 posts)
68. Your claim is absurd.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:36 AM
Feb 2016

He certainly has privilege as a US Senator. But big corporations get no access, because he doesn't accept their contributions. Read his book, he has always been fighting against both parties to be elected during his career. He gets last status in seniority with the Dems in Congress. His place in American politics is sui generis. There is nobody else like him. That is why he has the lowest net worth in the Senate and why he is the longest tenured independent in Congress in American history.

MrWendel

(1,881 posts)
55. A few months ago...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 02:55 AM
Feb 2016

I put up a thread asking a hypothetical Bernie Vs. Warren. There were actually responses that SHE was establishment too.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
56. Elizabeth Warren? THAT Warren? The same Warren from whom they ...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:41 AM
Feb 2016

... eagerly crave an endorsement of Bernie?

Oh my!

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
57. I can't help but wonder what these posts would look like if
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 08:00 AM
Feb 2016

the GOP fronted Palin, Bachmann or Fiorina.

And if Hillary feels all "boys're big ol' meanie heads" dealing with someone as congenial as Bernie I'm left with the impression she'll be reduced to quivering paralysis when challenged by Putin or any one of a number of chauvinistic leaders from rancidly misogynistic societies in the world.

Either she's tough enough for this job or she isn't. Pick one and stick to it. Otherwise, you're just feeding the cynicism about her ability to self-servingly play any role without conviction.

Empowerer

(3,900 posts)
61. Of course it does. Women have ALWAYS been charter members of the Establishment
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:25 AM
Feb 2016

Just look at all of the female presidents, senators and governors we've had over the years . . .

Oh, wait a minute...

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
69. She has done this SO many times. Like a crutch. She wants to run the military
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:41 AM
Feb 2016

but cries like a baby because all her wealth and daily phone calls with Warren Buffett and George Soros can't change the fact that life is unfair.

Lame. Lame. Lame. NOT presidential.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
72. Whine, whine, whine - just like Ann Romney. Has ZERO
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:46 AM
Feb 2016

idea how hard it has become to get ahead - or even simply make a living - for the average American. No, what she goes on about is how everyone's TONE is discriminatory and sexist.

As someone else said, it is VERY comical...

emulatorloo

(44,124 posts)
78. Warren Buffett advocates that the rich pay their fair share of taxes
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:33 PM
Feb 2016

He says it is not right that his secretary pays a higher percentage of income tax than he does.

Do you believe Bernie disagrees that the 1% should pay higher taxes than the 99%? I don't.

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
76. If you get paid $675,000 to give three speeches to Goldman Sachs, it's safe to say ...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:25 PM
Feb 2016

... that you are definitely part of the establishment.

Keep flailing.

cyberswede

(26,117 posts)
80. Women have been historically locked out of the power of the establishment.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:51 PM
Feb 2016

But that doesn't mean Hillary isn't an establishment politician.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
88. Yes women have been locked out of the power of the establishment.
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 03:40 AM
Feb 2016

But not HRC. Not ever.

And electing a centrist woman who supports a hawkish defense policy can't change that.

 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
90. Are you guys going to campaign the rest of the primaries solely on smears and the sexism charge?
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 07:42 AM
Feb 2016

This stuff is becoming annoyingly repetitive.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»It seems to really bother...