One of the Dangers of Bernie Sanders

[ericson00]

Recently, Bernie Sanders said this:

reminds me of this:

how did that turn out?

[cherokeeprogressive]

1. Truth-telling is truly a danger.

That is unless you can guarantee taxes would not go up during a Democratic administration.

Yes, Bernie is dangerous; he tells the truth.

[Thinkingabout]

26. Eighty five percent to pay for Sanders agenda, my health care premiums are lower.

[daleanime]

31. Yes, tell us how life is just....

peaches and cream right now and it's just too hard to fight for anything.

[thesquanderer]

43. What is this 85% you're talking about? I don't know what that figure refers to. (n/t)

[Thinkingabout]

47. Eighty five percent paid in taxes to cover the cost of Sanders agenda.

I realize this is not the information Sanders released.

[thesquanderer]

48. So why use a figure you know is wrong?

The actual figures for his tax plan (including paying for single payer healthcare) is on page 7

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Medicare-for-All.pdf

[Thinkingabout]

49. Yes, I wondered why Sanders used a figure which was wrong.

[thesquanderer]

50. What figure, and when did he use it? (n/t)

[Thinkingabout]

52. Here

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Medicare-for-All.pdf

[thesquanderer]

55. I don't follow you. When did Sanders use a figure inconsistent with that document? (n/t)

[merrily]

58. You're either buying McCaskill's laughable insinuations or thinking of Eisenhower, or both.

[Ed Suspicious]

76. You ought to be embarrassed about that claim. To the extent that you had any credibility,

it is now gone.

[Thinkingabout]

78. Do you think Sanders is embarrased about his figures? Credibility about his figures?

[thesquanderer]

80. Sanders' figures are fine, and credible. Your figure is apparently fictional. (n/t)

[Thinkingabout]

82. So is Sanders figures, with Sanders figures the debt will increase.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/18/health-reform-is-hard/?_r=0

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-senator-bernie-sanders-s-tax-plan

[thesquanderer]

83. taxfoundation.org is a right-leaning group

and ironically, since your other source was Paul Krugman, I'll point out that Krugman himself said they were not a reliable group.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/the-tax-foundation-is-not-a-reliable-source/

Wikipedia has its flaws, but they seem to have the basics covered pretty well at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation

Perhaps the best example is their 2013 analysis of the impact of Obamacare, which you can find at

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/obamacare-tax-increases-will-impact-us-all

It reads like a set of Republican talking points, about how bad Obamacare will be for businesses, that it will damage econmic growth and reduce wages. Ironically, the arguments they make there are similar to some of the ones they are making against Sanders' plan. So I'd look at their analysis with a whole bunch of salt.

As for Krugman, of course, these days Sanders supporters have mixed feeilngs about him, as he seems to lean Hillary, and plenty has been written about that.

But thank you for at least posting some actual information rather than a fictional 85% figure.

[Ferd Berfel]

39. FEAR - The Clinton people are Selling FEAR every chance they get

just like Republicans. huh !


Be afraid, Be Afraid.................

[ericson00]

88. more like telling hard truths

n/t

[Ferd Berfel]

89. "THe Power of Nightmares" Selling Fear through delusion

and lies is not going to win this time.

[Kip Humphrey]

2. fear, feaR, feAR, fEAR, FEAR!

see? I can do it too!

[MADem]

22. A lot of people are AFRAID of higher taxes.

The only people who aren't afraid of them are people who don't pay any, and who expect that Bernie robbing the rich will put them first in line for some of those benefits he's promising but won't be able to deliver with the Congress we've got now (and, owing to the way elections are held, won't be washed away any time soon).

[Kip Humphrey]

28. Wow. Fearing taxes and welfare queens? I've only ever heard such comments from republicons.

Maybe you should try redstate.com. It may be more to your liking.

[MADem]

34. Maybe you should--since you apparently know so much about the place.

And you're the one who brought up "welfare queens."

Hmmmm. Redstate and Welfare queens....sounds like that "may be more to YOUR liking..." to quote you.

When you cast aspersions, you'd better be real careful to make sure they don't splatter back all over you. It looks like you've been sprayed.

[Goblinmonger]

29. I will gladly pay an increase in taxes that is less than my health care costs

Who wouldn't?

Also, can we stop with the recent "Sanders supports just want free stuff" meme? It's run it's course.

Finally, if Sanders can't get anything passed with that Congress, how will Clinton?

[Thinkingabout]

32. Eighty five percent is much higher than my health insurance.

[MADem]

33. But it won't be ...

You're being Wimpy'd.

"I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today..."

Congress will not raise your taxes.

Congress will not pass Bernie's "Free Stuff" dreams.

No one in Congres likes Sanders (save McCain and one or two others). Clinton, OTOH, has a wide base of support there--just look at her endorsements.

[Art_from_Ark]

3. Mondale was going to lose anyway

He was viewed at the time as a relic from a failed presidency who was running against a popular incumbent.

[ericson00]

5. but if Mondale made the party look worse and get blown out,

it woulda been easier to sow dissent against Reagan for 1988 and thus beaten George HW Bush.

[mythology]

8. So would Gary Hart keeping it in his pants

[ericson00]

10. Monkey Business was in 1988

I was talking about 1984; Mondale made Reagan look better for the next four years than he would've.

[Art_from_Ark]

11. There was dissent against Reagan as evidenced by the 1986 Senate elections

when control reverted back to the Democrats.

But Dukakis, unfortunately, was not an inspiring presidenntial candidate.

Maybe Gary Hart, if he hadn't been sideswiped by Monkey Business, could have defeated Bush in 1988.

[artislife]

45. 30 plus years ago.

Do you think the country has changed any since then?

Let's put it this way, do you think there was any difference in the country between 1954 and 1984?


Stop with the silliness.

[merrily]

54. LOL! Spin! Carter and Mondale, two centrists from a failed administration, lost to Reagan.

They have nothing to do with Sanders and centrist Clinton.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12778873 (What About Mondale, Indeed: 1976 to 1980)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12778872 (What About Mondale, Indeed: Candidate Reagan)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12779277 (What About Mondale, Indeed: Walter Mondale)

And Mondale never promised his tax increase would lower the taxpayer's over all costs. That is what Sanders is promising.

And, before you wave McGovern around: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12778825 (This ain't 1972) Be sure to read the replies.

Obama raised taxes to pay for health care and to address some of the Bush tax cuts. Worked fine for him. He got re-elected. Obama 2009 is far more comparable to what Sanders is saying in 2016 than Carter Mondale in 1976-1984.

It's past time to give a rest to the center right memes about McGovern's loss, Kennedy's primary challenge to Carter, and Mondale loss to Reagan.

They are simplistic, played out, false, and self-serving centrist propaganda.

Besides, facts beat center right spin and memes about past elections every time.

Then again, as Colbert's character was so fond of saying, "Facts have a liberal bias."

And, btw, tone deaf, ever-evolving hundreds millionaire Romney lost.

[merrily]

53. +1 Thank you.

[stonecutter357]

4. GD-P K&R I think.

[Armymedic88]

6. Look at her favorability with independents in these polls..

Running a candidate who starts out with a 59% negative with independents will loose a majority of elections.



http://www.pollingreport.com/hrc.htm

[mindem]

7. Yawn

[uponit7771]

9. NO no no !!!! Sanders has revolution that is what makes him different than Mondale !!!

[yodermon]

12. Did you completely fucking ignore the part where he said he'd eliminate health ins. premiums???

Mondale was just going for a zinger one-liner.

Sanders just said he'd lower your total expenditure.

Hell, many have tried to paint health care premiums as a TAX since they are now MANDATORY under the ACA... so..

Bernie Sanders will lower your taxes.

Now are you really so fucking scared of the right wing that you don't think you can make that argument to counter their fearmongering bullshit during the general?

[ericson00]

14. the easy GOP ads don't care about such things

and promising tax hikes on everyone, not just the rich, is perfect fodder for that.

[yodermon]

15. right and the GOP ads will just treat Hillary with the respect she deserves, got it n/t

[ericson00]

16. elections are won/lost on policy attacks

1988: Dukakis loses on death penalty and crime
2004: Kerry loses on Iraq War/terrorism

[MADem]

23. Yeah, they'll cover all that in the GOP oppo ad...NOT.

How will "he" eliminate them? Please explain that to all of us.

I'm all ears.

Congress will tell him to stuff that plan in one of HIS ears, you know.

It will never happen.

So....tell us, how will "he" eliminate them, without Congress? Send them all home, declare himself king?

"He" won't do anything--and neither will Congress.

[Goblinmonger]

30. If he can't eliminate them, the taxes don't go up.

Was that so hard to figure out?

And Congress won't tell Clinton to stuff her plans?

[yodermon]

35. Please don't play stupid. All politicians talk about their respective plans that way.

*of course* Congress has to enact the plans that presidential candidates campaign on. What, did you just take 4th grade civics and are all proud of yourself, or something?
You are basically criticizing how every presidential candidate, ever, has campaigned, by putting forth "plans"...which require Congress to pass. Duh.

Except now, in the case of Bernie, Congress is such a huuuge barrier that he shouldn't even propose anything. Well how is Hillary planning on getting all those meanie republicans to vote for her stuff? She just vaguely declares that since Bernie is too far left, that she'll "get things done" and House repukes will just roll over an do her bidding? Bwhahaha. They will give her the exact same treatment you are predicting for Bernie. Exact same. Except since Hillary has pre-announced that she's going to compromise with them, somehow they will just fall in line. Unreal that you think that.

At least Bernie, having campaigned on Single Payer, will start out from a position of STRENGTH when it comes time to negotiate. MAYBE, as a result, we'll at least get the Public Option. Who here would object to that?

Obama didn't campaign on single payer (hell max baucus had single payer advocates ARRESTED), he campaigned (reluctantly) on the Public Option. Well at least we got the ACA (to his credit), but no public option.

See? Campaign on your ideals; compromise on something at least palatable.

Much better than "NO WE CAN'T" and "REPUBLICANS SCARY!"

P.S. - what is Hillary's plan to take back the House, being the putative party leader and all?

[MADem]

42. Campaigning on obvious impossibilities is a weakness.

If people stop and THINK, they'd realize it.

His give-aways and massive "revolution" is not going to happen. He'll be thwarted before he begins.

The commercials write themselves...

No one is "scared" but that "We will raise taxes, yes, we will" mantra will be a commercial that the GOP will love running if BS makes it past the primary.

[asuhornets]

57. Do you

fucking understand telling people that you are going to raise their fucking taxes is not a good selling point in the general election?

[mikehiggins]

13. Anybody got a copy of the famous No New Taxes promise from George the First?

HRC's remarks keep reminding me of that gem.

[frylock]

17. *yawn*

The game has passed you guys by.

[George II]

18. Except for the actual states, that map looks like the Clinton/Sanders map - Sanders will win...

....only two states (Mondale won 1 state and DC)

[Cheese Sandwich]

19. Who needs republican attacks when #teamHillary will do it for them.

Totally dishonest to talk about taxes without talking about the private insurance SAVINGS.

[MADem]

24. It's not a "Republican attack" when you can't tell us how Bernie will give you health care, all by

himself.

Congress will not vote to raise taxes.

Congress will not vote for his health care scheme.

It's not rocket science--all you have to do is look at the makeup of the legislature, and even with a few flips, he still won't have it. There are Democrats in Congress who will not vote to raise taxes. And no one in Congress likes him--except John McCain, maybe (who can't serve as a superdelegate, owing to party affiliation).

They're not going to help him.

If he gets in, they'll primary him in four years.

[thesquanderer]

46. As I said in another thread, the only choices are to Try or to Give Up.

No, Sanders is not going to give us everything we want. But he's not limited to what he can get with the 2016 congress.

We have to at least start moving the conversation. And maybe Bernie's coattails can yield a slightly more amenable congress... if not in 2016, then, if he continues to motivate his base, in 2018. And 2020 and 2022.

Meanwhile, the odds that HRC will get anything of comparable significance done? Even less... because she won't even try. And we'll have missed out on 4 or 8 years of even beginning to move the conversation. As the cliche goes, every long journey begins with a first step. Hillary is not ready to take that step. If you don't start SOMEWHERE you never get ANYWHERE.

[Old Codger]

20. You want to gloss over

The rest of that bit of info. You won't do it I know,but you skip all references to that plans way to save all of us way way more than any possible raise in taxes by savings in health care... That is a context that is conveniently avoided.

[MADem]

21. "We will raise taxes, yes, we will!"

That's the GOP commercial, right there. In black and white, with scary shadows...Over and Over and Over again.

He won't be able to be elected dog catcher. There are even Democrats who don't like higher taxes. They'll stay home or vote for Rubio.

Ugh.

[treestar]

25. Kick

Wow that's red.

[JPnoodleman]

27. If the US doesn't want to fix its problems than Death is assured?

Okay so we have a solution to help steer this country into a course of national renewal and strength. We could solve a lot of problems but people CHOOSE to avoid it, well we CAN'T be expected to just refused to fight for a sensible solution if too much of the US is insane.

If America chooses its doom, well, F' I can't exactly work with that. If the country is obsessed with legalizing rape, and I'm against that, I am not going to adopt a "moderate," stance on rape JUST to get elected.... elected to what ends? What would I accomplish by getting elected if I essentially only get the the policy of the other side than? What was the point of getting elected?

[Gothmog]

36. Raising taxes worked great for President Mondale

[merrily]

60. False equivalency. Mondale never promised to lower costs. And raising taxes did work for Obama.

See also http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1153117

[Gothmog]

62. Denial is not just a river in Africa

[merrily]

64. Nope. Glad you got that. It isn't only facile, false centrist memes about past elections, either.

Please get back to me when you can actually refute anything I posted with something other than a fifty year old cliche.

[Gothmog]

67. Why single payer died in Vermont

If single payer can not work in Vermont, then there is no chance that it will be adopted in the entire country http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/single-payer-vermont-113711#ixzz3xciq2Nj5

So single-payer advocates looked instead to make a breakthrough in the states. Bills have been introduced from Hawaii to New York; former Medicare chief Don Berwick made it a key plank of his unsuccessful primary race for Massachusetts governor.

Vermont under Shumlin became the most visible trailblazer. Until Wednesday, when the governor admitted what critics had said all along: He couldn’t pay for it.

“It is not the right time for Vermont” to pass a single-payer system, Shumlin acknowledged in a public statement ending his signature initiative. He concluded the 11.5 percent payroll assessments on businesses and sliding premiums up to 9.5 percent of individuals’ income “might hurt our economy.”

Vermont’s outcome is a “small speed bump,” said New York Assembly member Richard Gottfried, who’s been pushing single-payer bills for more than 20 years. But opponents says it’s the end of the road.

“If cobalt blue Vermont couldn’t find a way to make single-payer happen, then it’s very unlikely that any other state will,” said Jack Mozloom, spokesman for the National Federation of Independent Business.

“There will never be a good time for a massive tax increase on employers and consumers in Vermont, so they should abandon that silly idea now and get serious,” Mozloom added.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/single-payer-vermont-113711#ixzz3xdKH1mGn

Sanders is proposing a skeleton of a plan (not a real plan at all) that has no chance of passage. The refusal of Sanders to answer the question was an admission that even Sanders knows that this plan is not real.

[merrily]

70. Again, a different point entirely than the one you tried to make in Reply 36. You're flailing.

[Gothmog]

74. Read the article-the Vermont plan failed due to the needed massive tax increases

Again, tax increases are not great campaign platform and the Sanders plan would kill down ballot candidates when the GOP and Kochs point the tax increases needed

[Gothmog]

68. Krugman- Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan

The cost savings are speculative at best and are on the same level as the GOP's claims of increased income due to tax cuts. I trust Prof. Krugman on this http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/weakened-at-bernies/?_r=0

On health care: leave on one side the virtual impossibility of achieving single-payer. Beyond the politics, the Sanders “plan” isn’t just lacking in detail; as Ezra Klein notes, it both promises more comprehensive coverage than Medicare or for that matter single-payer systems in other countries, and assumes huge cost savings that are at best unlikely given that kind of generosity. This lets Sanders claim that he could make it work with much lower middle-class taxes than would probably be needed in practice.

To be harsh but accurate: the Sanders health plan looks a little bit like a standard Republican tax-cut plan, which relies on fantasies about huge supply-side effects to make the numbers supposedly add up. Only a little bit: after all, this is a plan seeking to provide health care, not lavish windfalls on the rich — and single-payer really does save money, whereas there’s no evidence that tax cuts deliver growth. Still, it’s not the kind of brave truth-telling the Sanders campaign pitch might have led you to expect.

Again, as noted by Prof. Krugman this plan does not add up.

[merrily]

69. That is a different point entirely from the one you tried to make in Reply 36.

I could care less about Krugman.

[Gothmog]

72. No, I was responding to your claim of supposed cost savings

The cost savings relied on by the Sanders single payer plan are very speculative at best

[liberal_at_heart]

37. I don't want to be part of any party not willing to discuss taxes.

People may not want to hear about taxes, but they are also furious over the cuts to social services. Cutting social services will come back to haunt the Democrats.

[Persondem]

38. Exactly!! you can add a bunch of other free ad material given to the GOP media machine by Sanders

Here's another one ... "Sanders said he was not "actively involved with organized religion."

Which in GOP ads would be equated to atheist ... so Bernie is by his admission ...

Socialist (in GOP speak = commie)
A conscientious objector (to GOP = draft dodger)
Wants to raise taxes big time (In GOP ads = tax and spend liberal)
Agnostic (of sorts) per above quote (In GOP ads = Jesus hating atheist)

Supporters of Sanders are falling into a trap. He is waaaay too far left to ever be president of this centrist country. It ain't happening. I have spent many years in the political tranches and there is no way he carries states like NC in a GE. A lump of republican ear wax could beat him. He will outdo Mondale and McGovern in a race to failure.

The GOP has laid off him; Sanders is maxed out right now. Once the GOP media hit squads turn their attention on him his poll numbers will wilt like a daisy in the desert.

[Persondem]

65. bump nt

[cyberswede]

40. I met Mondale once.

There was a dead spider stuck in the glaze on one of the donuts at the reception. He was gracious, though. Nice guy. Not a particularly inspiring candidate, unfortunately.

[whatchamacallit]

41. Oh no, if we're honest we might hand the oligarchy back to the republicans!

Best we don't promise much, that way we keep a democrat as crime boss!

[thesquanderer]

44. We're not running against a popular incumbent, among other things.

The Reagan revolution was just taking hold in the country's rightward shift. Now people may be ready for a revolution in the other direction. It is 30 years later, you know. The population, demographics, and financial conditions in this country are all quite different.

[merrily]

51. Raise your taxes a little, lower your costs a lot. Obama did it. It's not rocket science.

And catch up. Obama was the most recent Democrat to raise taxes to pay for health care. He got re-elected.

Please see also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1153117

[Ken Burch]

56. Mondale lost because he had the charisma of month-old lutefisk

Not because of the tax raising thing.

The other problem is that he would only use the extra tax money for the right-wing goal of "deficit reduction"-not for anything useful like reindustrializing the Rust Belt.

There were no significant progressive proposals anywhere in Mondale's platform.

And, of course, he was running against THIS guy (trigger warning) :



A Dem that ran on a no new taxes platform would have lost 49 states that year, too. Even El Perro Grande would have.

[merrily]

61. I did a lot of research on this because I was so tired of the center right memes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1153117

[Octafish]

59. Low energy guy?

I remember that particular election. Corporate McPravda did a nice job covering up for the October Surprise, voodoo economics, Iran-Contra, S&Ls, BCCI and a whole lot more treason out of Pruneface and especially his personal manager, Poppy.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Reagan is dead. So is Michael Jackson.

It's not 1984 anymore.

[AgingAmerican]

66. Disagreeing with disasterous GOP talking points/policy is 'dangerous'?

Cuz the gang on the couch at FOX and friends won't like it?

[gyroscope]

71. He was running against Reagan

no democrat in the world could have beat Reagan back then no matter what they said.

unless the GOP have a candidate on the caliber of Ronald Reagan in 2016, there is nothing to fear.

[KingCharlemagne]

73. So you ignore polling data from today that shows Sanders beating

EVERY REPUBLICAN in head-to-head matchups, in order to trot out some 30-year-old chestnut???

Only one place for you: IGNORE until after the GE.

[99Forever]

75. Yes they do ignore any poll that doesn't favour their Chosen One.

This coming week when Bernie gives Hillary a massive head to head thrashing, they'll ignore that too.

Cognitive dissonance is a way of life in Camp Weathervane.

Besides, we're just "haters."

[HassleCat]

77. Careful! Avoid the danger.

Dangerous to send someone to the moon. Dangerous to desegregate the schools. Dangerous to provide free public education. Scary. Run away and hide!

[ericson00]

84. there is a huge difference between

discrimination against people on the color of their skin and education (which everyone needs) vs. blanket tax hikes (which you can't promise and expect to win anything)

[OhZone]

79. @OP - EXACTLY! That's exactly what I was thinking. n/t

[ericson00]

85. This meme needs to spread all over the internet

[GeorgeGist]

81. Thankfully, Reagan Democrats are mostly dead.

[NurseJackie]

86. I know! That was a fatal mistake!

[ericson00]

87. I hope New Hampshirites don't enable such a mistake again!