2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhen Bernie Sanders ran against me in Vermont
By Madeleine May Kunin FEBRUARY 05, 2016
Eye opening background piece:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/02/04/when-bernie-sanders-ran-against-vermont/kNP6xUupbQ3Qbg9UUelvVM/story.html?p1=Article_Trending_Most_Viewed
Hillary Clinton is not the first progressive Democratic woman to be challenged by Bernie Sanders. He ran against me in 1986 when I was running for my second term as governor of Vermont. At that time he had little affinity for the Democratic Party. When advised that his third-party candidacy might result in a Republican victory, he saw no difference between Democrats and Republicans, saying: It is absolutely fair to say you are dealing with Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
Voters did not agree. Sanders received 14 percent of the vote, the Republican candidate, Peter Smith received 38 percent, and I won with 47 percent.
By any measure I was regarded as a progressive governor. If I was vulnerable, it was for being too liberal. As a legislator, my maiden speech on the floor of the Vermont House was in favor of ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment. My first priority as governor was universal access to kindergarten. I set a record for a Vermont governors appointees; women filled half of my cabinet. I sought out talented women, many of whom were the first women to head their agencies.
Women draw on a different network than men and can share an alternative definition of qualified. Hillary Clintons campaign staff, according to Fast Company, is over 50 percent female. Sanders campaign began with a a predominantly male inner circle and continues to face accusation of keeping women out of the top ranks.
When Sanders was my opponent he focused like a laser beam on class analysis, in which womens issues were essentially a distraction from more important issues. He urged voters not to vote for me just because I was a woman. That would be a sexist position, he declared....
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)During the congressman's 1996 re-election campaign, feminist writer Gloria Steinem traveled to Burlington to endorse Sanders and declare him an "honorary woman."
MADem
(135,425 posts)Maybe he learned--if only a very little-- something from the ass kicking he got in that gubernatorial run.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Gloria may of thought this was a personal matter between two people. Anyway if he learned then why bring it up
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We're starting to add up.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)Additionally, Steinem endorsed Hillary.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)Gloria said..........honorary woman I bet Bernie felt very proud that day since he does care for all people
George II
(67,782 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)about Bernie.................
George II
(67,782 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)a sexist or something like that
George II
(67,782 posts)....the fact remains that Gloria Steinem said nice things about him way back in 1996 but now here we are, 20 years later, and she has endorsed Hillary Clinton.
Remember, back in 1996 Sanders wasn't running against Hillary Clinton. Perhaps is he was he wouldn't have gotten Steinem's support?
Hekate
(90,686 posts)....they like best about him. He's like New England granite -- never changes, never evolves, never grows.
George II
(67,782 posts)Old Man of the Mountain
The Old Man of the Mountain, also known as the Great Stone Face or the Profile,[1] was a series of five granite cliff ledges on Cannon Mountain in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, United States, that appeared to be the jagged profile of a face when viewed from the north.....the formation collapsed to the ground between midnight and 2 a.m., May 3, 2003.[2] Dismay over the collapse was so great that people left flowers at the base of the cliffs in tribute.
Hekate
(90,686 posts)...his heart is pure.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)...with most supporters responding that it's only one of their considerations.
This former governor has taken time to outline her other concerns and considerations. Her emphasis on finding qualified women to fill political and government positions is justified by a pressing need to address the dearth and shortage of women appointed or elected to those roles throughout our nation's history.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)dae
(3,396 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Maybe even juvenile.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 6, 2016, 12:50 AM - Edit history (1)
National Honor Society
Merit Scholar
B.S Wellesley
J.D. Yale Law School
Two term senator from a large and heterogeneous state
Secretary of State
,,,
Total overachiever...
I purposefully didn't mention her ceremonial positions.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)basselope
(2,565 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Cuz I don't think she is.
basselope
(2,565 posts)However, when accused of being establishment, she hid behind her hoo-ha as an excuse.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It means Bernie is a real threat and this is the best they can come up with for dirt.
BRING IT ON!
MADem
(135,425 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)How does anyone defend her?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)People really need to see this.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The big finish of the OP article is excellent, too:
I understand that voters are looking for authenticity; they always have been, asking, Are you who you claim to be? A woman, running for a leadership position that has always been held by a man, has to create a new persona. To succeed, she has to play the game as it has always been played, but at the same time, play it differently. Its difficult to find that sweet spot where a woman is just right tough enough to be commander in chief and feminine enough to be mother of the nation..
When we elected the first African American as President, we believed that an African American man would be revolutionary and bring us hope....the world seen through the eyes of a black man looks different than through those of a white man. As a result of President Obamas leadership, we look at him and ourselves differently.
And the world as seen through the eyes of a woman will not result in revolution, but it will mark a change towards greater gender equality. Visualizing Hillary raising her right hand to take the oath of office, and Bill holding the Bible, will tell every little girl and boy, that, yes, women can achieve anything.
Madeleine May Kunin, who served as governor of Vermont for three terms from 1985-1991, is a Marsh Professor at the University of Vermont, and the author of The New Feminist Agenda, Defining the Next Revolution for Women, Work and Family.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I base my vote on issues not gender and Bernie is much more progressive than Hillary.
MADem
(135,425 posts)to think that women have gotten a raw deal since the founding of the Republic.
But that's me!
So I'll vote for the best candidate by a long shot--Hillary Clinton.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Good thing there's no progressive women running, that would make my decision difficult.
MADem
(135,425 posts)FailureToCommunicate
(14,014 posts)"character"
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It really brings back a lot of memories and puts these smears against Bernie into perspective.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)pretty sick.
LisaM
(27,811 posts)How is that the media recycling it? I think she makes valid points.
I guess anything that isn't completely praiseworthy is regarded as recycled and dismissed without even reading it...!
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Because...awesome. If this is the best you've got, might as well just quit digging.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)roguevalley
(40,656 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Boston Globe today.
You don't think her experience, as a candidate running in that contest, is salient?
I think it is. So does the Globe, apparently, or they wouldn't have printed this today.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)I do see a lot of whining.
MADem
(135,425 posts)That you'd call the first female governor of VT, a well-known Democrat and feminist with a long and strong reputation, a "whiner?"
smh! No dissent!
I think there's plenty of "content" there--it's just content you don't like, so you characterize it in a denigrating way.
I think your characterizations are what the feminists call "mansplaining" or something.
Not a good look for you!
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Are women not held to the same standard? Nothing in my post was specific to her gender.
elias49
(4,259 posts)Anyone else.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)My s/o likes his with beer while I prefer a nice chianti.
elias49
(4,259 posts)just 15 minutes drive. Why didn't I think of that?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)By the time we pick it up it's ready, they make a mean Spanakopita.
elias49
(4,259 posts)Though a little rich!
k8conant
(3,030 posts)but won't be having any today since it's Friday-a fasting day.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'm always a little wary of frozen pastry and phyllo dough can get soggy.
When will you be able to eat, midnight?
k8conant
(3,030 posts)Orthodox fast is refraining from meat, fish, egg and dairy...until midnight.
Wednesdays and Fridays and during Great Lent and a few other designated fasting periods. (At least, scallops and squid and shrimp are allowed)
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)We should stop talking about food if you're fasting.
k8conant
(3,030 posts)eom
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)love to go on a potluck picnic with you guys by the way. Yum.
nxylas
(6,440 posts)Have you checked out the Catholic & Orthodox Christian Group?
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)not to good even though it was Marie Callender's. Most of the time I find their food pretty tasty.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)And you can drink all of it since, well, I'm allergic to alcoholic drinks.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Thanks for the kick!
dana_b
(11,546 posts)and a nice chianti.... (no Hannibal Lecteur reference).
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Pepper beef or beef with broccoli.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I got a really great deal on some take-home pizza's -- buy 2 and get one free AND I had coupons for all three which made them under $3.00 a piece. Probably the first frozen pizza I've bought in 30 years.
But before that we're doing a honk-and-wave for Bernie in just under 2 hours.
Love spaghetti
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Laser102
(816 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Vinca
(50,271 posts)People win elections, people lose elections. Hillary knows that.
MADem
(135,425 posts)articulate the viewpoint of the former governor of Vermont.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)I recall reading here a few times........
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I would give her a second look. Maybe she would be a good Veep choice for Bernie.
MADem
(135,425 posts)karynnj
(59,503 posts)unless you are ok with losing that state's electoral votes - even VT's three could matter. Add in, that though she looks MUCH younger she is 82!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)run and all, but yeah there is the age factor although some might say that eighty is the new seventy.
lol at Bernie - never changes even with the times.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)A person who can't change is like language that doesn't evolve. Languages that don't evolve, like Greek and Latin, are called dead languages.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)What you said!
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)William769
(55,147 posts)Jarqui
(10,125 posts)as sexist as voting against Hillary because she is a woman.
What sex Hillary is should have nothing to do with it. (I know, it in reality wrongfully still does but ideally, it should not).
If a woman who is the best person for the job loses because she is a woman, that would bother me. i'm sure it's happened in many US elections.
When a woman wins because she is the best person for the job, I suppose that will be an historic moment. But not entirely for me. Yes, I will be relieved that a big tick mark for gender equality has finally been checked off and that young girls will no longer clunk into that glass ceiling and find it as rigid as it's been because it would now have holes that can let women through. On the other hand, not that exciting because woman have been equal in my mind for decades - since i was a kid.
I wish Hillary was more like Elizabeth Warren: honest and truly committed to the greater good.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Turn about IS fair play.
We want children to understand their future, in all its glorious possibilities? We have to model it for them. If they don't see it as possible, they won't understand it as possible.
There's no better role model than Hillary Clinton. She is ready from Day 1.
Jarqui
(10,125 posts)If that's truly the case, we're totally f**ked.
She's the most deceitful US politician since Nixon. She's nicknamed weathervane because she lacks a policy rudder as arguably the biggest flip-flopper in US history. Numerous times, she's lacking in judgement. And her family wealth smells of being built on quid pro quo or gaming the system.
"No better role model?" Thankfully, you couldn't be more wrong.
There are many better role models than Hillary. Many. I'll start with Elizabeth Warren who Hillary can't hold a candle to on the above issues.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Sure you haven't taken a wrong turn?
Elizabeth Warren was a voting Republican when HRC was getting SCHIP healthcare for eight million children. She was voting for Ronald Reagan, and George Bush because she liked their approach to markets. Really.
I don't hold that against her, though--she evolved.
Jarqui
(10,125 posts)Elizabeth was registered as a Republican way back but I've seen no evidence of her voting that way. Please provide a link to back that voting claim up. Bet you can't.
My sister is registered as a Republican (has been for years). She's in the Wall Street financial sector. She voted for Obama in '08 and '12. She also voted for Bill Clinton. She signed up during Reagan's years and never bothered to change her party identification for business reasons.
Regardless, on it's own, Hillary's well documented lying should quickly wipe out any notion she should be a role model. I have two daughters. If my daughters turned out like Hillary, I'd be horrified and beside myself because I would have failed to get across how important integrity is.
Elizabeth Warren could have voted Republican and still be a role model because at least she's honest. If my daughters turned out like Elizabeth, I'd be proud - even if they liked the odd Republican.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Someone who has been a liberal most of her career. On the other hand you are so accepting and forgiving someone who was a part of the trickle down Reagan "revolution" , a movement that created a lot of the crap we have been dealing with since then. Talk about a double standard.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Jarqui
(10,125 posts)neither did most people in the years you are referring to. She was an academic - not building the Republican party. And her path reminds me of my sisters, where financial people were drawn to the Republican policies at that time. And we didn't have the sort of record on how those policies were going to work out that we do today.
There is context - a little more than merely and I think ignorantly settling for guilt by association which seems to be so easily latched onto these days. In the 60s, there were some Republicans who seemed more extreme like Goldwater but he got hammered in his election. The Eisenhower Republicans were not the joke of a party they are today. They were "square" but kind of respected. Many were just conservatives and a little stiff but not complete assholes. At times they might be a voice of reason or common sense. The country was truly first with them as it was with most Democrats. They could compromise back then. I do not remember them as entirely evil even though I was very liberal. My older sister got some of that - I was a little young to fully appreciate it and easily wrapped up in the Kennedys.
Nixon came along and to me, that's where the parties started to get further apart (or I started to catch on). I liked Jimmy Carter. Along comes Reagan, who I didn't want from the outset, and over the 8 years that followed, the parties continued to get further apart. Bill Clinton - Newt Gingrich and it started to get close to where we find ourselves today.
In other words, there was an evolution. Although they didn't represent my positions, I did not regard the Republicans in the early Reagan years anything like I do today. If they took power, I didn't like it but now, if they take power, I'll be very upset that much of what we've worked for could get lost. So I'm not all down on Elizabeth Warren having been an 80s Republican. In the 80s, she was an academic and professor learning about how people responded to laws and then became an expert in bankruptcy law. She wasn't beating a drum for the GOP. Lots of folks I didn't mind were Republicans then but wouldn't be today. The GOP has gotten more extreme and moved right.
Hillary right now, in some respects, reminds me of a 60s Republican. Bernie in some respects, reminds me of a 60s Democrat. There's the choice.
So I look at stuff on a case by case basis.
My problem with Hillary is I cannot stand the lying and flip-flopping. I've had enough of that from her and yet she's still doing it. There's no double standard there at all. I couldn't stand Dick Nixon for similar reasons. I've been like this my whole life. Integrity matters to me. It doesn't matter to Hillary. It matters to Elizabeth Warren. It matters to Bernie. It matters to Obama. I'm tired of being lied to by politicians and that's a key part of why I'm fighting for Bernie. He's being honest with me so I'll give him an honest effort and I know and can trust where he stands. You can't do that with Hillary. If you do, you'll get burned.
Response to MADem (Reply #59)
Name removed Message auto-removed
MADem
(135,425 posts)I missed it, darn the bad luck!
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)is "sexist."
I'd say it's a group of single-issue voters that have prioritized their desire for a symbolic victory (i.e. electing a woman to be President) above other considerations such as poverty, war, education, justice system reform, campaign finance reform, and fiscal policy.
"I'd say it's a group of single-issue voters that have prioritized their desire for a symbolic victory (i.e. electing a woman to be President) above other considerations such as poverty, war, education, justice system reform, campaign finance reform, and fiscal policy."
I'd say that's messed up prioritization.
I am very confident that it's going to happen pretty soon. A woman is going to emerge who can kick everybody's ass. Hillary could win but it's not quite the same for me. I'd prefer it over the GOP but I'd never get over the bad aroma.
BooScout
(10,406 posts)This is great!
TIME TO PANIC
(1,894 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I think those grapes were pretty sweet.
frylock
(34,825 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Instead just a big nothing burger.
More boilerplate from a Clinton surrogate.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)And no, Madeleine, electing the first black president did not revolutionize ANYTHING and nobody is falling for that hopey changey thing anymore. The problems we had 8 years ago are still with us and for minorities they're in fact a lot worse. Think about that before trying to "make history" by voting for a candidate just because of gender.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The woman recounts a time in her life when she intersected with a POTUS candidate in an election scenario, and she's met with that kind of nastiness...?
That "problem" that Team Sanders has is REAL. She talks about differences, they talk about her "angry diatribe" and call her an "ideologue" who doesn't "understand."
smh!
You cannot make this shit up!!! They do it to themselves!!
angrychair
(8,699 posts)Suggest you look here:
https://votesmart.org/interest-group/1343/rating/7663
The American Association of University Women 100% lifetime rating (going back to 1995)
NARAL 100% lifetime rating (going back to 1995)
National Organization for Women (NOW) 90%
I think your meme fall flat.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)And I do not perceive republican governors versus democratic governors as Tweedledum and Tweedledee. I wonder if Sanders would modify that statement now, since he's running as a democrat.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You'd think it would be enough for her that she won.
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)When advised that his third-party candidacy might result in a Republican victory, he was not deterred.
Full speed ahead, damn the Democrats, that seems to be the Sanders mantra.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)?
Response to MADem (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)It's Orwellian to call her Progressive.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)who doesn't dislike Bernie. I even like it when he does class analysis.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)about her here.
LisaM
(27,811 posts)PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)he sorta proved his point
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)Yet another victimized and persecuted Clinton supporter who attacks Sanders by and while playing the victim card. Doesn't your bleeding heart bleed for poor, poor disempowered Hillary?
Anybody who has the gall to publicly express her or his political disagreement with Clinton or her supporters is by definition mean-spirited, racist and sexist.
Gothmog
(145,242 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....but we're not permitted to talk about it much here.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Thus, the womens movement
Gothmog
(145,242 posts)That quote from Sanders reminds of Nader who gave George W. Bush. I was deeply disturbed by that quote
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)seaglass
(8,171 posts)Hillary.
This is definitely a consideration.
Thanks for the article MADem.
bread_and_roses
(6,335 posts)- all of which HRC has supported to one degree or another - and the harm they have done to women? Not to mention her puny stance on minimum wage after decades of wage stagnation that has cost women untold misery and dollars? Not to mention our wars abroad, and the death toll they've taken on women and children. Not to mention cluster bombs and the women who've lost children to them. Not much, I think
I'm a woman and near the same age as HRC. I'm a feminist. HRC - if she can be called a feminist at all - is part of that "Third Wave" that embraced a devolved feminism that pretty much limited itself to getting women into Boardrooms and CEO Chairs.
Bernie's not perfect but he is fighting for issues that matter to women - and his platform would benefit ordinary women far more than the paltry crumbs HRC would throw to working class women and their children.
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Even in 1986. This is part of the trope of men as oppressed by sexism, just like white people are oppressed by racism. That is most decidedly not progressive.
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)His views don't sound very progressive when you realize how much effort he goes through to exclude people by his own "class analysis". There's a word for that. Several words come to mind. Hmm.
Thanks for posting, MADem.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Good for Vermont. Maybe it isn't the Malheur wildlife refuge I was beginning to think it was.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)The machine is mighty as it grinds out the sausages that are our leaders.
MADem
(135,425 posts)No one, we are learning, is a Purity Pete, here.
Let the vetting begin! This is what happens when a candidate takes the pole position in a primary contest!
Number23
(24,544 posts)K&R
MADem
(135,425 posts)Little Star
(17,055 posts)I was just going to post this but you beat me to it
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Many problems that are badly hurting people every day can't wait. They not only can't wait that long, they've waited far too long already.