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MADem

(135,425 posts)
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:23 PM Feb 2016

When Bernie Sanders ran against me in Vermont



Madeleine Kunin took the oath of office in Montpelier on Jan. 10, 1984. An overflowing crowd watched as Kunin became the first female governor of Vermont.

By Madeleine May Kunin FEBRUARY 05, 2016




Eye opening background piece:
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/02/04/when-bernie-sanders-ran-against-vermont/kNP6xUupbQ3Qbg9UUelvVM/story.html?p1=Article_Trending_Most_Viewed



Hillary Clinton is not the first progressive Democratic woman to be challenged by Bernie Sanders. He ran against me in 1986 when I was running for my second term as governor of Vermont. At that time he had little affinity for the Democratic Party. When advised that his third-party candidacy might result in a Republican victory, he saw no difference between Democrats and Republicans, saying: “It is absolutely fair to say you are dealing with Tweedledum and Tweedledee.”

Voters did not agree. Sanders received 14 percent of the vote, the Republican candidate, Peter Smith received 38 percent, and I won with 47 percent.

By any measure I was regarded as a progressive governor. If I was vulnerable, it was for being too liberal. As a legislator, my maiden speech on the floor of the Vermont House was in favor of ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment. My first priority as governor was universal access to kindergarten. I set a record for a Vermont governor’s appointees; women filled half of my cabinet. I sought out talented women, many of whom were the first women to head their agencies.

Women draw on a different network than men and can share an alternative definition of “qualified.” Hillary Clinton’s campaign staff, according to Fast Company, is over 50 percent female. Sanders’ campaign began with a a predominantly male inner circle and continues to face accusation of keeping women out of the top ranks.

When Sanders was my opponent he focused like a laser beam on “class analysis,” in which “women’s issues” were essentially a distraction from more important issues. He urged voters not to vote for me just because I was a woman. That would be a “sexist position,” he declared....
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When Bernie Sanders ran against me in Vermont (Original Post) MADem Feb 2016 OP
Gloria Steinem seemed to like Bernie in 96 UglyGreed Feb 2016 #1
Did she like him when he was running for governor? MADem Feb 2016 #3
This was after that. UglyGreed Feb 2016 #11
Oopsie! ANOTHER woman who doesn't hate Bernie. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #36
Just sayin UglyGreed Feb 2016 #38
Key words: Congressman, re-election, and 1996. onehandle Feb 2016 #10
Two key words UglyGreed Feb 2016 #19
She endorsed Hillary Clinton in October. George II Feb 2016 #91
Oh so I guess that changes what she said UglyGreed Feb 2016 #96
Of course it couldn't be that Sanders changed since 1996, could it? George II Feb 2016 #98
I heard he has become UglyGreed Feb 2016 #99
I wouldn't say that (and I've seen very little references to that, although they're out there)..... George II Feb 2016 #124
Never, never , never. DU tells us he has never wavered, never changed, and that's what ... Hekate Feb 2016 #123
But even New England granite changes!!! George II Feb 2016 #125
But not St Bernie. He is impervious to change, and his strength is as the strength of ten because Hekate Feb 2016 #132
Voting for someone simply because of their gender IS a sexist thing to do, whether male or female.nt Electric Monk Feb 2016 #2
Well, we've had plenty of that "sexism" since the dawn of the republic. nt MADem Feb 2016 #5
that charge is mostly a canard bigtree Feb 2016 #13
Accusing supporters of backing her only for her hoo-ha is brazen and sophomoric. PeaceNikki Feb 2016 #27
When the candidate themselves brings up their gender as a reason to vote for them? ROFL. nt Electric Monk Feb 2016 #31
Accusing supporters of backing her only for her hoo-ha is brazen and sophomoric. PeaceNikki Feb 2016 #39
Accusing me of being sophomoric for noticing what they've said is sophomoric. nt Electric Monk Feb 2016 #54
Nice, EM. dae Feb 2016 #80
Accusing folks of harboring motives that they don't is actually worse than sophomoric./nt DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2016 #105
Yep. BlueCaliDem Feb 2016 #114
Ceteris paribus, Hillary Clinton is eminently qualified to be president DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2016 #116
She is THE most qualified and experienced candidate running - bar none. BlueCaliDem Feb 2016 #118
Then ask her to stop trying to hide behind her hoo-ha, plz. basselope Feb 2016 #63
You ask her. PeaceNikki Feb 2016 #64
I have.. quite publicly basselope Feb 2016 #94
The msm is recycling hit pieces, how adorable. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #4
This article was written by the woman who won the election. nt MADem Feb 2016 #6
Can I play too? When Hillary Clinton ran against Barack Obama in 2008: beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #7
That needs to be an OP. Hillary bringing up the spectrum of assassination for Obama. Live and Learn Feb 2016 #14
Oh yeah, and +10,000! nt Live and Learn Feb 2016 #16
I agree with Live and Learn that you should make this an OP. kath Feb 2016 #17
Gee...whatever happened to him? He's ... disappeared, went back to sports, or something. MADem Feb 2016 #43
That's nice but I prefer to vote for the best candidate, not the one who ran a racist campaign. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #45
I do, too! And I include gender issues in my decision making process, because I happen MADem Feb 2016 #47
Sure if you're willing to settle for second best that's your right. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #49
My candidate has the most experience in and out of government. She's the best by far! nt MADem Feb 2016 #53
Please please post this as an OP. This is amazing, and goes to the heart of her FailureToCommunicate Feb 2016 #76
I don't post ops in this forum but someone else is welcome to. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #82
OMG... had totally forgotten about this. Agree it should be an OP! AzDar Feb 2016 #128
yes, I forgot about that-- that was freaking beyond the pale Fast Walker 52 Feb 2016 #146
And she wrote it last week! LisaM Feb 2016 #140
I know!!! MADem Feb 2016 #142
Is this the dirt every one claims will come up when he is vetted? Goblinmonger Feb 2016 #8
Oh no. There is much more good stuff. leftofcool Feb 2016 #25
I would think they would drown him in it if it was out there. roguevalley Feb 2016 #71
This isn't dirt--it's simply a piece by a woman who was governor of VT that was published in the MADem Feb 2016 #109
I don't see any content there that should influence anyone's issues-based vote. JonLeibowitz Feb 2016 #126
Why am I not surprised? MADem Feb 2016 #143
It is well known that men who complain incessantly are called whiners. JonLeibowitz Feb 2016 #145
I'm having spaghetti for dinner tonight. elias49 Feb 2016 #9
We're getting Greek takeout. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #12
I'm kind of in the boonies, but there's one Greek takeout place elias49 Feb 2016 #18
We're way out in the sticks too so we call it in just before we leave. beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #20
Heavenly! elias49 Feb 2016 #22
I get frozen spanakopita from Costco... k8conant Feb 2016 #30
Is it any good? beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #32
I like it...just bake it and eat... k8conant Feb 2016 #46
I'll have to check it out, thanks for the tip! beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #50
No problem... k8conant Feb 2016 #55
barbecue ribs here with corn on the cob and a cold one. :D:D Its Friday. I would roguevalley Feb 2016 #72
Hey, another Orthodox DUer! nxylas Feb 2016 #60
Had that for lunch UglyGreed Feb 2016 #15
i am having cajun beef tips and rice. stonecutter357 Feb 2016 #24
Mmmmmm!! I would love to come over for dinner. I'll bring the red wine! BlueCaliDem Feb 2016 #113
Not sure yet--maybe we'll do take away. MADem Feb 2016 #37
ooo... i'm having spaghetti too! dana_b Feb 2016 #51
Frozen Chinese here. KamaAina Feb 2016 #57
It's junk food Friday. Le Taz Hot Feb 2016 #67
Me too! abelenkpe Feb 2016 #89
K&R! stonecutter357 Feb 2016 #21
K&R. Thanks for the info. Did not know that. Laser102 Feb 2016 #23
DU rec...nt SidDithers Feb 2016 #26
Is this supposed to somehow reflect badly on Bernie? Vinca Feb 2016 #28
It's a POV piece in today's Boston Globe. I don't think it's 'supposed' to do anything save MADem Feb 2016 #33
Any port in a storm UglyGreed Feb 2016 #34
Too bad she isn't running for first woman President instead of Hillary. Cleita Feb 2016 #29
I don't think that is even a remote possibility. nt MADem Feb 2016 #35
She can't - she wasn't born in the US and you can't have two people from the same state karynnj Feb 2016 #41
That seems to be changing what with Ted Cruz being allowed to Cleita Feb 2016 #44
Kick treestar Feb 2016 #40
Which is, for me as a Liberal, more alarming than comforting. BlueCaliDem Feb 2016 #115
Bingo..... Little Star Feb 2016 #135
We are most fortunate that Vermont did not elect Bernie as Governor. Dawson Leery Feb 2016 #42
Kick & highly recommended! William769 Feb 2016 #48
Isn't voting for Hillary primarily because she is a woman flirting with being Jarqui Feb 2016 #52
America has been voting for the White Man because he is the White Man for over 200 years. MADem Feb 2016 #59
"There's no better role model than Hillary Clinton." ??? Jarqui Feb 2016 #66
Gee, most Democrats don't agree with you. MADem Feb 2016 #110
I don't care if any Democrats agree with me. I have a mind of my own. Jarqui Feb 2016 #112
It's amusing to hear such vitriol directed toward redstateblues Feb 2016 #120
The mistake is in assuming that someone who is registered Democrat is liberal. JonLeibowitz Feb 2016 #127
It's where Warren is today that really matters. I didn't know she existed and Jarqui Feb 2016 #129
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2016 #85
Golly gee willikers....whatever did "Name Removed" have to say? MADem Feb 2016 #138
I wouldn't say that women voting for Hillary because she's a woman Maedhros Feb 2016 #65
Well ... Jarqui Feb 2016 #68
K&R... BooScout Feb 2016 #56
Sour grapes. TIME TO PANIC Feb 2016 #58
LOL...she WON. She CRUSHED 'the Bern.' He got 14 percent of the vote. MADem Feb 2016 #61
Savor that victory! frylock Feb 2016 #73
I'm betting she did. nt MADem Feb 2016 #111
Gee I thought this would be an expose of how rotten Bernie had been. Armstead Feb 2016 #62
K&R mcar Feb 2016 #69
Interesting article. The first Berniac comment I see is a keeper: OilemFirchen Feb 2016 #70
Unreal. MADem Feb 2016 #139
Really? angrychair Feb 2016 #74
Interesting article. lovemydog Feb 2016 #75
Basically, she's mad because she thinks she was entitled to Bern's votes. Ken Burch Feb 2016 #77
he had little affinity for the Democratic Party liberal N proud Feb 2016 #78
Why are so many declared Sanders supporters saying 'La la la, talk to the hand.' lovemydog Feb 2016 #79
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2016 #81
As soon as you call Hillary a PROGRESSIVE I'm done Ferd Berfel Feb 2016 #83
K&R n/t NYC Liberal Feb 2016 #84
I'm another woman zentrum Feb 2016 #86
She supported Hillary Clinton in 2008 as well. Her state went for Obama. n/t PoliticAverse Feb 2016 #87
For some reason, she is not at all influential. We always forget cali Feb 2016 #90
Was she a good governor? n/t LisaM Feb 2016 #141
not really sure he was running against her if the republican was so close PatrynXX Feb 2016 #88
Yet another victimized and persecuted Clinton supporter mhatrw Feb 2016 #92
Great article Gothmog Feb 2016 #93
Kick. Agschmid Feb 2016 #95
BIG kick. There's a lot of stuff like that in his past.... George II Feb 2016 #97
The left in general of his era did not allow women much power flamingdem Feb 2016 #100
“It is absolutely fair to say you are dealing with Tweedledum and Tweedledee.” Gothmog Feb 2016 #101
Yeap found like Sanders tactic to minimize the issues of "others" uponit7771 Feb 2016 #102
Posted to for later. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2016 #103
Yes, that is my feeling, women's issues wouldn't be a priority for Bernie but they would be for seaglass Feb 2016 #104
K/R ericson00 Feb 2016 #106
And this weighs what "for" women against welfare "reform"/drug war/mass incarceration bread_and_roses Feb 2016 #107
People have a right to run for office. Go cry somewhere else. Bread and Circus Feb 2016 #108
This BainsBane Feb 2016 #117
Great piece! These local pieces are very valuable. R B Garr Feb 2016 #119
"Sanders received 14 percent of the vote . . ." ucrdem Feb 2016 #121
KnR Hekate Feb 2016 #122
Ahh the efforts to make that centrist into a progressive march on. CBGLuthier Feb 2016 #130
Well, all of our putative leaders seem to enjoy hobnobbing with "the machine." MADem Feb 2016 #131
An incredibly powerful piece Number23 Feb 2016 #133
Gov. Kunin was and is a trailblazer in many regards! nt MADem Feb 2016 #137
K&R.... Little Star Feb 2016 #134
K&R. Economic fixes will take a generation to empower. Hortensis Feb 2016 #136
Once again I agree with Bernie. nt TBF Feb 2016 #144

UglyGreed

(7,661 posts)
1. Gloria Steinem seemed to like Bernie in 96
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:25 PM
Feb 2016

During the congressman's 1996 re-election campaign, feminist writer Gloria Steinem traveled to Burlington to endorse Sanders and declare him an "honorary woman."

MADem

(135,425 posts)
3. Did she like him when he was running for governor?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:27 PM
Feb 2016

Maybe he learned--if only a very little-- something from the ass kicking he got in that gubernatorial run.

UglyGreed

(7,661 posts)
11. This was after that.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:30 PM
Feb 2016

Gloria may of thought this was a personal matter between two people. Anyway if he learned then why bring it up

UglyGreed

(7,661 posts)
19. Two key words
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:39 PM
Feb 2016

Gloria said..........honorary woman I bet Bernie felt very proud that day since he does care for all people

George II

(67,782 posts)
124. I wouldn't say that (and I've seen very little references to that, although they're out there).....
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:52 PM
Feb 2016

....the fact remains that Gloria Steinem said nice things about him way back in 1996 but now here we are, 20 years later, and she has endorsed Hillary Clinton.

Remember, back in 1996 Sanders wasn't running against Hillary Clinton. Perhaps is he was he wouldn't have gotten Steinem's support?

Hekate

(90,686 posts)
123. Never, never , never. DU tells us he has never wavered, never changed, and that's what ...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:43 PM
Feb 2016

....they like best about him. He's like New England granite -- never changes, never evolves, never grows.

George II

(67,782 posts)
125. But even New England granite changes!!!
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:56 PM
Feb 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man_of_the_Mountain

Old Man of the Mountain

The Old Man of the Mountain, also known as the Great Stone Face or the Profile,[1] was a series of five granite cliff ledges on Cannon Mountain in the White Mountains of New Hampshire, United States, that appeared to be the jagged profile of a face when viewed from the north.....the formation collapsed to the ground between midnight and 2 a.m., May 3, 2003.[2] Dismay over the collapse was so great that people left flowers at the base of the cliffs in tribute.


Hekate

(90,686 posts)
132. But not St Bernie. He is impervious to change, and his strength is as the strength of ten because
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 12:06 AM
Feb 2016

...his heart is pure.

bigtree

(85,996 posts)
13. that charge is mostly a canard
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:33 PM
Feb 2016

...with most supporters responding that it's only one of their considerations.

This former governor has taken time to outline her other concerns and considerations. Her emphasis on finding qualified women to fill political and government positions is justified by a pressing need to address the dearth and shortage of women appointed or elected to those roles throughout our nation's history.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
116. Ceteris paribus, Hillary Clinton is eminently qualified to be president
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:23 PM
Feb 2016

Last edited Sat Feb 6, 2016, 12:50 AM - Edit history (1)

National Honor Society
Merit Scholar
B.S Wellesley
J.D. Yale Law School
Two term senator from a large and heterogeneous state
Secretary of State

,,,

Total overachiever...

I purposefully didn't mention her ceremonial positions.

 

basselope

(2,565 posts)
94. I have.. quite publicly
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:14 PM
Feb 2016

However, when accused of being establishment, she hid behind her hoo-ha as an excuse.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
4. The msm is recycling hit pieces, how adorable.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:27 PM
Feb 2016

It means Bernie is a real threat and this is the best they can come up with for dirt.

BRING IT ON!


Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
14. That needs to be an OP. Hillary bringing up the spectrum of assassination for Obama.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:33 PM
Feb 2016

How does anyone defend her?

MADem

(135,425 posts)
43. Gee...whatever happened to him? He's ... disappeared, went back to sports, or something.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:09 PM
Feb 2016

The big finish of the OP article is excellent, too:

I understand that voters are looking for authenticity; they always have been, asking, “Are you who you claim to be?” A woman, running for a leadership position that has always been held by a man, has to create a new persona. To succeed, she has to play the game as it has always been played, but at the same time, play it differently. It’s difficult to find that sweet spot where a woman is “just right” tough enough to be commander in chief and feminine enough to be mother of the nation..

When we elected the first African American as President, we believed that an African American man would be revolutionary and bring us hope....the world seen through the eyes of a black man looks different than through those of a white man. As a result of President Obama’s leadership, we look at him and ourselves differently.

And the world as seen through the eyes of a woman will not result in revolution, but it will mark a change towards greater gender equality. Visualizing Hillary raising her right hand to take the oath of office, and Bill holding the Bible, will tell every little girl and boy, that, yes, women can achieve anything.


Madeleine May Kunin, who served as governor of Vermont for three terms from 1985-1991, is a Marsh Professor at the University of Vermont, and the author of “The New Feminist Agenda, Defining the Next Revolution for Women, Work and Family.”

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
45. That's nice but I prefer to vote for the best candidate, not the one who ran a racist campaign.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:12 PM
Feb 2016

I base my vote on issues not gender and Bernie is much more progressive than Hillary.


MADem

(135,425 posts)
47. I do, too! And I include gender issues in my decision making process, because I happen
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:14 PM
Feb 2016

to think that women have gotten a raw deal since the founding of the Republic.

But that's me!

So I'll vote for the best candidate by a long shot--Hillary Clinton.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
49. Sure if you're willing to settle for second best that's your right.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:17 PM
Feb 2016

Good thing there's no progressive women running, that would make my decision difficult.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
82. I don't post ops in this forum but someone else is welcome to.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:47 PM
Feb 2016

It really brings back a lot of memories and puts these smears against Bernie into perspective.

LisaM

(27,811 posts)
140. And she wrote it last week!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 05:36 PM
Feb 2016

How is that the media recycling it? I think she makes valid points.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
142. I know!!!
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:12 PM
Feb 2016

I guess anything that isn't completely praiseworthy is regarded as recycled and dismissed without even reading it...!

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
8. Is this the dirt every one claims will come up when he is vetted?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:29 PM
Feb 2016

Because...awesome. If this is the best you've got, might as well just quit digging.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
109. This isn't dirt--it's simply a piece by a woman who was governor of VT that was published in the
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 08:31 PM
Feb 2016

Boston Globe today.

You don't think her experience, as a candidate running in that contest, is salient?

I think it is. So does the Globe, apparently, or they wouldn't have printed this today.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
126. I don't see any content there that should influence anyone's issues-based vote.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:05 PM
Feb 2016

I do see a lot of whining.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
143. Why am I not surprised?
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:16 PM
Feb 2016

That you'd call the first female governor of VT, a well-known Democrat and feminist with a long and strong reputation, a "whiner?"

smh! No dissent!

I think there's plenty of "content" there--it's just content you don't like, so you characterize it in a denigrating way.

I think your characterizations are what the feminists call "mansplaining" or something.

Not a good look for you!

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
145. It is well known that men who complain incessantly are called whiners.
Tue Feb 9, 2016, 06:35 PM
Feb 2016

Are women not held to the same standard? Nothing in my post was specific to her gender.

 

elias49

(4,259 posts)
18. I'm kind of in the boonies, but there's one Greek takeout place
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:37 PM
Feb 2016

just 15 minutes drive. Why didn't I think of that?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
20. We're way out in the sticks too so we call it in just before we leave.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:41 PM
Feb 2016

By the time we pick it up it's ready, they make a mean Spanakopita.


beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
32. Is it any good?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:58 PM
Feb 2016

I'm always a little wary of frozen pastry and phyllo dough can get soggy.

When will you be able to eat, midnight?

k8conant

(3,030 posts)
46. I like it...just bake it and eat...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:13 PM
Feb 2016

Orthodox fast is refraining from meat, fish, egg and dairy...until midnight.

Wednesdays and Fridays and during Great Lent and a few other designated fasting periods. (At least, scallops and squid and shrimp are allowed)

roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
72. barbecue ribs here with corn on the cob and a cold one. :D:D Its Friday. I would
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:20 PM
Feb 2016

love to go on a potluck picnic with you guys by the way. Yum.

UglyGreed

(7,661 posts)
15. Had that for lunch
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:33 PM
Feb 2016

not to good even though it was Marie Callender's. Most of the time I find their food pretty tasty.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
113. Mmmmmm!! I would love to come over for dinner. I'll bring the red wine!
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:13 PM
Feb 2016

And you can drink all of it since, well, I'm allergic to alcoholic drinks.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
67. It's junk food Friday.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:11 PM
Feb 2016

I got a really great deal on some take-home pizza's -- buy 2 and get one free AND I had coupons for all three which made them under $3.00 a piece. Probably the first frozen pizza I've bought in 30 years.

But before that we're doing a honk-and-wave for Bernie in just under 2 hours.

Vinca

(50,271 posts)
28. Is this supposed to somehow reflect badly on Bernie?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:55 PM
Feb 2016

People win elections, people lose elections. Hillary knows that.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
33. It's a POV piece in today's Boston Globe. I don't think it's 'supposed' to do anything save
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:58 PM
Feb 2016

articulate the viewpoint of the former governor of Vermont.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
29. Too bad she isn't running for first woman President instead of Hillary.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 04:56 PM
Feb 2016

I would give her a second look. Maybe she would be a good Veep choice for Bernie.

karynnj

(59,503 posts)
41. She can't - she wasn't born in the US and you can't have two people from the same state
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:05 PM
Feb 2016

unless you are ok with losing that state's electoral votes - even VT's three could matter. Add in, that though she looks MUCH younger she is 82!

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
44. That seems to be changing what with Ted Cruz being allowed to
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:09 PM
Feb 2016

run and all, but yeah there is the age factor although some might say that eighty is the new seventy.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
115. Which is, for me as a Liberal, more alarming than comforting.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:17 PM
Feb 2016

A person who can't change is like language that doesn't evolve. Languages that don't evolve, like Greek and Latin, are called dead languages.

Jarqui

(10,125 posts)
52. Isn't voting for Hillary primarily because she is a woman flirting with being
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 05:22 PM
Feb 2016

as sexist as voting against Hillary because she is a woman.

What sex Hillary is should have nothing to do with it. (I know, it in reality wrongfully still does but ideally, it should not).

If a woman who is the best person for the job loses because she is a woman, that would bother me. i'm sure it's happened in many US elections.

When a woman wins because she is the best person for the job, I suppose that will be an historic moment. But not entirely for me. Yes, I will be relieved that a big tick mark for gender equality has finally been checked off and that young girls will no longer clunk into that glass ceiling and find it as rigid as it's been because it would now have holes that can let women through. On the other hand, not that exciting because woman have been equal in my mind for decades - since i was a kid.

I wish Hillary was more like Elizabeth Warren: honest and truly committed to the greater good.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
59. America has been voting for the White Man because he is the White Man for over 200 years.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:02 PM
Feb 2016

Turn about IS fair play.

We want children to understand their future, in all its glorious possibilities? We have to model it for them. If they don't see it as possible, they won't understand it as possible.

There's no better role model than Hillary Clinton. She is ready from Day 1.

Jarqui

(10,125 posts)
66. "There's no better role model than Hillary Clinton." ???
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:10 PM
Feb 2016

If that's truly the case, we're totally f**ked.

She's the most deceitful US politician since Nixon. She's nicknamed weathervane because she lacks a policy rudder as arguably the biggest flip-flopper in US history. Numerous times, she's lacking in judgement. And her family wealth smells of being built on quid pro quo or gaming the system.

"No better role model?" Thankfully, you couldn't be more wrong.

There are many better role models than Hillary. Many. I'll start with Elizabeth Warren who Hillary can't hold a candle to on the above issues.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
110. Gee, most Democrats don't agree with you.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 08:36 PM
Feb 2016

Sure you haven't taken a wrong turn?

Elizabeth Warren was a voting Republican when HRC was getting SCHIP healthcare for eight million children. She was voting for Ronald Reagan, and George Bush because she liked their approach to markets. Really.

I don't hold that against her, though--she evolved.

Jarqui

(10,125 posts)
112. I don't care if any Democrats agree with me. I have a mind of my own.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 08:52 PM
Feb 2016

Elizabeth was registered as a Republican way back but I've seen no evidence of her voting that way. Please provide a link to back that voting claim up. Bet you can't.

My sister is registered as a Republican (has been for years). She's in the Wall Street financial sector. She voted for Obama in '08 and '12. She also voted for Bill Clinton. She signed up during Reagan's years and never bothered to change her party identification for business reasons.

Regardless, on it's own, Hillary's well documented lying should quickly wipe out any notion she should be a role model. I have two daughters. If my daughters turned out like Hillary, I'd be horrified and beside myself because I would have failed to get across how important integrity is.

Elizabeth Warren could have voted Republican and still be a role model because at least she's honest. If my daughters turned out like Elizabeth, I'd be proud - even if they liked the odd Republican.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
120. It's amusing to hear such vitriol directed toward
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:20 PM
Feb 2016

Someone who has been a liberal most of her career. On the other hand you are so accepting and forgiving someone who was a part of the trickle down Reagan "revolution" , a movement that created a lot of the crap we have been dealing with since then. Talk about a double standard.

Jarqui

(10,125 posts)
129. It's where Warren is today that really matters. I didn't know she existed and
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:14 PM
Feb 2016

neither did most people in the years you are referring to. She was an academic - not building the Republican party. And her path reminds me of my sisters, where financial people were drawn to the Republican policies at that time. And we didn't have the sort of record on how those policies were going to work out that we do today.

There is context - a little more than merely and I think ignorantly settling for guilt by association which seems to be so easily latched onto these days. In the 60s, there were some Republicans who seemed more extreme like Goldwater but he got hammered in his election. The Eisenhower Republicans were not the joke of a party they are today. They were "square" but kind of respected. Many were just conservatives and a little stiff but not complete assholes. At times they might be a voice of reason or common sense. The country was truly first with them as it was with most Democrats. They could compromise back then. I do not remember them as entirely evil even though I was very liberal. My older sister got some of that - I was a little young to fully appreciate it and easily wrapped up in the Kennedys.

Nixon came along and to me, that's where the parties started to get further apart (or I started to catch on). I liked Jimmy Carter. Along comes Reagan, who I didn't want from the outset, and over the 8 years that followed, the parties continued to get further apart. Bill Clinton - Newt Gingrich and it started to get close to where we find ourselves today.

In other words, there was an evolution. Although they didn't represent my positions, I did not regard the Republicans in the early Reagan years anything like I do today. If they took power, I didn't like it but now, if they take power, I'll be very upset that much of what we've worked for could get lost. So I'm not all down on Elizabeth Warren having been an 80s Republican. In the 80s, she was an academic and professor learning about how people responded to laws and then became an expert in bankruptcy law. She wasn't beating a drum for the GOP. Lots of folks I didn't mind were Republicans then but wouldn't be today. The GOP has gotten more extreme and moved right.

Hillary right now, in some respects, reminds me of a 60s Republican. Bernie in some respects, reminds me of a 60s Democrat. There's the choice.

So I look at stuff on a case by case basis.

My problem with Hillary is I cannot stand the lying and flip-flopping. I've had enough of that from her and yet she's still doing it. There's no double standard there at all. I couldn't stand Dick Nixon for similar reasons. I've been like this my whole life. Integrity matters to me. It doesn't matter to Hillary. It matters to Elizabeth Warren. It matters to Bernie. It matters to Obama. I'm tired of being lied to by politicians and that's a key part of why I'm fighting for Bernie. He's being honest with me so I'll give him an honest effort and I know and can trust where he stands. You can't do that with Hillary. If you do, you'll get burned.

Response to MADem (Reply #59)

MADem

(135,425 posts)
138. Golly gee willikers....whatever did "Name Removed" have to say?
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 03:41 PM
Feb 2016

I missed it, darn the bad luck!

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
65. I wouldn't say that women voting for Hillary because she's a woman
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:10 PM
Feb 2016

is "sexist."

I'd say it's a group of single-issue voters that have prioritized their desire for a symbolic victory (i.e. electing a woman to be President) above other considerations such as poverty, war, education, justice system reform, campaign finance reform, and fiscal policy.

Jarqui

(10,125 posts)
68. Well ...
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:15 PM
Feb 2016
"I'd say it's a group of single-issue voters that have prioritized their desire for a symbolic victory (i.e. electing a woman to be President) above other considerations such as poverty, war, education, justice system reform, campaign finance reform, and fiscal policy."


I'd say that's messed up prioritization.

I am very confident that it's going to happen pretty soon. A woman is going to emerge who can kick everybody's ass. Hillary could win but it's not quite the same for me. I'd prefer it over the GOP but I'd never get over the bad aroma.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
61. LOL...she WON. She CRUSHED 'the Bern.' He got 14 percent of the vote.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:04 PM
Feb 2016

I think those grapes were pretty sweet.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
62. Gee I thought this would be an expose of how rotten Bernie had been.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:05 PM
Feb 2016

Instead just a big nothing burger.

More boilerplate from a Clinton surrogate.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
70. Interesting article. The first Berniac comment I see is a keeper:
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:18 PM
Feb 2016
She deserves to get hammered by any sane person. This piece was nothing but an angry diatribe by a misguided ideologue who just doesn't understand why we have government. There are real problems to fix at all levels of government and Kunin seems to think we should focus on the genitalia of the people we elect rather than their proposed solutions.

And no, Madeleine, electing the first black president did not revolutionize ANYTHING and nobody is falling for that hopey changey thing anymore. The problems we had 8 years ago are still with us and for minorities they're in fact a lot worse. Think about that before trying to "make history" by voting for a candidate just because of gender.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
139. Unreal.
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 03:45 PM
Feb 2016

The woman recounts a time in her life when she intersected with a POTUS candidate in an election scenario, and she's met with that kind of nastiness...?

That "problem" that Team Sanders has is REAL. She talks about differences, they talk about her "angry diatribe" and call her an "ideologue" who doesn't "understand."

smh!

You cannot make this shit up!!! They do it to themselves!!

angrychair

(8,699 posts)
74. Really?
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:34 PM
Feb 2016

Suggest you look here:
https://votesmart.org/interest-group/1343/rating/7663

The American Association of University Women 100% lifetime rating (going back to 1995)

NARAL 100% lifetime rating (going back to 1995)

National Organization for Women (NOW) 90%


I think your meme fall flat.

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
75. Interesting article.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:35 PM
Feb 2016

And I do not perceive republican governors versus democratic governors as Tweedledum and Tweedledee. I wonder if Sanders would modify that statement now, since he's running as a democrat.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
77. Basically, she's mad because she thinks she was entitled to Bern's votes.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:37 PM
Feb 2016

You'd think it would be enough for her that she won.

liberal N proud

(60,334 posts)
78. he had little affinity for the Democratic Party
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:38 PM
Feb 2016

When advised that his third-party candidacy might result in a Republican victory, he was not deterred.

Full speed ahead, damn the Democrats, that seems to be the Sanders mantra.

Response to MADem (Original post)

mhatrw

(10,786 posts)
92. Yet another victimized and persecuted Clinton supporter
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:11 PM
Feb 2016

Yet another victimized and persecuted Clinton supporter who attacks Sanders by and while playing the victim card. Doesn't your bleeding heart bleed for poor, poor disempowered Hillary?

Anybody who has the gall to publicly express her or his political disagreement with Clinton or her supporters is by definition mean-spirited, racist and sexist.

George II

(67,782 posts)
97. BIG kick. There's a lot of stuff like that in his past....
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:25 PM
Feb 2016

....but we're not permitted to talk about it much here.

Gothmog

(145,242 posts)
101. “It is absolutely fair to say you are dealing with Tweedledum and Tweedledee.”
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:32 PM
Feb 2016

That quote from Sanders reminds of Nader who gave George W. Bush. I was deeply disturbed by that quote

seaglass

(8,171 posts)
104. Yes, that is my feeling, women's issues wouldn't be a priority for Bernie but they would be for
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:55 PM
Feb 2016

Hillary.

This is definitely a consideration.

Thanks for the article MADem.

bread_and_roses

(6,335 posts)
107. And this weighs what "for" women against welfare "reform"/drug war/mass incarceration
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 08:08 PM
Feb 2016

- all of which HRC has supported to one degree or another - and the harm they have done to women? Not to mention her puny stance on minimum wage after decades of wage stagnation that has cost women untold misery and dollars? Not to mention our wars abroad, and the death toll they've taken on women and children. Not to mention cluster bombs and the women who've lost children to them. Not much, I think

I'm a woman and near the same age as HRC. I'm a feminist. HRC - if she can be called a feminist at all - is part of that "Third Wave" that embraced a devolved feminism that pretty much limited itself to getting women into Boardrooms and CEO Chairs.

Bernie's not perfect but he is fighting for issues that matter to women - and his platform would benefit ordinary women far more than the paltry crumbs HRC would throw to working class women and their children.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
117. This
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:26 PM
Feb 2016
When Sanders was my opponent he focused like a laser beam on “class analysis,” in which “women’s issues” were essentially a distraction from more important issues. He urged voters not to vote for me just because I was a woman. That would be a “sexist position,” he declared....


Even in 1986. This is part of the trope of men as oppressed by sexism, just like white people are oppressed by racism. That is most decidedly not progressive.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
119. Great piece! These local pieces are very valuable.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 09:43 PM
Feb 2016

His views don't sound very progressive when you realize how much effort he goes through to exclude people by his own "class analysis". There's a word for that. Several words come to mind. Hmm.

Thanks for posting, MADem.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
121. "Sanders received 14 percent of the vote . . ."
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 10:27 PM
Feb 2016

Good for Vermont. Maybe it isn't the Malheur wildlife refuge I was beginning to think it was.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
130. Ahh the efforts to make that centrist into a progressive march on.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:19 PM
Feb 2016

The machine is mighty as it grinds out the sausages that are our leaders.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
131. Well, all of our putative leaders seem to enjoy hobnobbing with "the machine."
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 11:26 PM
Feb 2016
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/05/politics/sanders-democratic-fundraisers/index.html

No one, we are learning, is a Purity Pete, here.


Let the vetting begin! This is what happens when a candidate takes the pole position in a primary contest!

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
136. K&R. Economic fixes will take a generation to empower.
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 03:08 PM
Feb 2016

Many problems that are badly hurting people every day can't wait. They not only can't wait that long, they've waited far too long already.

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