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lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:27 PM Feb 2016

One type of framing of last night's debate.

Last night's debate, while entertaining, seemed to highlight (among other things) simplicity versus complexity.

Sanders is saying a lot of things are simple. Break up the big banks. Reinstate the Glass-Steigal Act. End the drug war. Overturn Citizens United. Don't vote for dangerous legislation like the Iraq War Resolution. I agree with all these points. But he has to gain consensus from republicans and democrats in Congress (many or most of whom are corrupted to various degrees by special interests and campaign contributions). How will they even pass comprehensive campaign reform if most of them don't seem to want it? Clinton said she wants it too, but there doesn't seem to be much consensus in Congress on it.

Clinton is saying a lot of progress is more complex. Lowering health care costs, preserving social security, gaining de jure and de facto equality for black people and women, require piecemeal gains and long term vigilance. But it leaves people feeling cold if one doesn't take bold moral stances or if legislation is watered down via compromises that may harm others, as in the case with our jobs being outsourced.

There's something to be said for each of these approaches. But I think both candidates are forced into a somewhat silly corner trying to distinguish themselves from one another. If Sanders is President of course he would understand the complexity of a lot of issues. He actually helped write and sponsor the Affordable Care Act and he knows that also from being a Senator and serving on committees. If Clinton is President she knows that some things are actually simple. They just require her to sign legislation or refuse to sign it.

I think Sanders supporters may say 'if you don't get the simple stuff right you can't hope to get the complex stuff right, you've got to take bold moral stances.' And I think Clinton supporters may say 'if you get 93% of the simple stuff right, progress is being made and if you just keep repeating yourself about revolution eventually people will turn you off or rip you to shreds.'

What are your thoughts? How do you perceive these distinctions (or 'distinctions')?

6 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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One type of framing of last night's debate. (Original Post) lovemydog Feb 2016 OP
I think it's more about the nut & bolts of negotiating, and where you start from. 99th_Monkey Feb 2016 #1
Thanks for your reply. lovemydog Feb 2016 #2
I don't see any allies for Sanders coming out MsMAC Feb 2016 #3
I think he'll get a lot of votes lovemydog Feb 2016 #4
Things aren't 'complex', they are actually: "clogged up by the entrenched powers." johnnyrocket Feb 2016 #5
Okay, I hear what you're saying. lovemydog Feb 2016 #6
 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
1. I think it's more about the nut & bolts of negotiating, and where you start from.
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 06:53 PM
Feb 2016

One of the most "practical" aspects of governing is how, when, and with with whom you negotiate.

We ALL know that the GOP goon-squad is going to fight tooth & nail against WHATEVER is proposed
by a Democratic POTUS. So given that, if one starts with a modest proposal, once the dust settles
after the big fight, all one is left with -- at best-- about 1/2 of what was modest in the first place..

IMHO a smart POTUS will shoot for the fucking MOON, like Bernie is doing, then fight like hell for it
until one runs out of time or options, THEN negotiate (but not before this point). One of my biggest
gripes with Obama has been that he seems to start out with low expectations to begin with, and starts
from there.

This is why I feel it's very smart of Sanders to think big, go for the gusto, rock the opponent back
on their heels a little with audacious goals, and so forth. Hillary scares me because she's starting with
"No we can't" out of the gate. <-- a loosing proposition IMO.

MsMAC

(91 posts)
3. I don't see any allies for Sanders coming out
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:02 PM
Feb 2016

to support him. What I see is he's irascible and sneaky. His supporters may be young, but they're also not versed in politicking! I am so tired of hearing all bernie all the time that I'm #BERNEDOUT!

johnnyrocket

(1,773 posts)
5. Things aren't 'complex', they are actually: "clogged up by the entrenched powers."
Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:14 PM
Feb 2016

You can have Medicare for all, you can break up the banks, but if you're owned by the powers that be, those changes become "difficult".

lovemydog

(11,833 posts)
6. Okay, I hear what you're saying.
Sat Feb 6, 2016, 03:53 AM
Feb 2016

Do you think a President can change very much of that? If so, how much?

I guess it's the people that must do it, starting with their local representatives and then moving on to state and federal positions.

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