The Tale of Two Democratic Candidates and the General election - 2016 Edition

[FrenchieCat]

Last edited Fri Feb 5, 2016, 07:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Look, I like both candidates, but believe that Hillary Clinton is the most qualified, bar none, and due to her Foreign policy chops, is also the best well rounded, even when comparing her to anyone on the Republican field. Her qualifications allows to knock down any unforeseen and unplanned foreign policy disaster that may occur anytime between now and November. We do not control these occurrences, so we certainly shouldn't naively act like nothing will happen, because one can only win if one is totally prepared in case it does.

I am quite concerned with those on Bernie's side who constantly sell the notion that Republicans will come out just to vote against Hillary....as many don't apparently want to understand that what would invigorate a large Republican turnout EVEN MORE than Hillary Clinton running, is a Radical Socialist calling for revolution and running on the premise of redistributing the wealth by taxing for spending and growing government bigger than ever before seen (which is exactly how they will frame Bernie Sanders, most likely even worse....unfortunately) and it would be true.

Also, I find that Bernie's approach of continuously holding up all other European countries as the shining beacon as to what the US should be, is flawed, as it incites the opposition (as much as they seem to be down on America) to become that much more nationalistic. That is not the best approach to get more Americans to vote for you.

The person who will win the presidency, is the person who isn't downing this country so much, and instead provides an optimistic message that, under Obama we have done much better considering where we were, and that we should build on that, as we can make this country even better. A positive frame, much more worthy than day in, day out, highlighting only how terrible this country has become...which is already the GOP's message. As well, Sanders proposing to re-fight healthcare, an issue that has so divided this country is chancy at best, and a dangerous calculation at worse. It only generates that much more zeal for Republicans to come out in droves....because now they are fighting a real government type healthcare like what they attempted to say Obamacare is, when it ain't.

The bottomline is that this a much more important election than some want to admit, which is why so I don't understand the so many who are saying if it ain't Sanders, I'm not voting. They are more invested in teaching everyone a lesson, than caring about how their action will only directly hurt the exact people that Bernie Sanders is supposed to be so passionate about helping. In addition, it is a divisive statement that almost sounds like blackmail. Of course voting or not voting is everyone's right, but to use it as a bludgeon is totally unhelpful to Sanders' cause d'etre!

AND from both candidates, we need to hear much more on the "HOWs" they plan on making the changes they promise. Anytime Bernie highlights a problem, and promises what he'll give us, I always scream at my TV screen....BUT HOW will you do this? Yes, I know; Sanders' offerings sound awfully good, but it simply isn't enough to propose what's wrong and what would be better, if one cannot specifically provide a reasonable plan of HOW all of this legislation would occur to make these awesome changes, besides an unreliable Radical Revolution.

As for this Revolution...it could certainly continue regardless of who the nominee is, and in fact encouraged, as it shouldn't be solely about Bernie having to be President in order to change things.

AND, we should be taking note that, in Iowa anyways, voting was down by 30% for Democrats and up 50% for the Republicans, and that was with the Radical Revolutionary guy on the ticket....so there's that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1146153

I'm thinking that young people, the most unreliable voting bloc there is, have only experienced how easy it is to win, but that's because they primarily remember Obama; but neither Sanders nor Clinton are Obama.

If you want to know my opinion about who will be the GOP Candidate, something I wrote some time back, and have been saying for months, here it is: http://www.democraticunderground.com/110738863

[FrenchieCat]

1. I know this post is boring, especially to Sanders supporters.....

I get it. It ain't a For Sanders or Hillary is a this and a that post! So sorry!

[RobertEarl]

4. Wow

Radical Socialist

Revolution...it could certainly continue regardless of who

how terrible this country has become...which is already the GOP's message

growing government bigger than ever before seen (which is exactly how they will frame Bernie Sanders, most likely even worse....unfortunately) and it would be true

____________________

Heh. That is something else, for sure. Good luck with that.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Bernie Sanders' own spokesperson called it it a Radical Political Revolution.....on MSNBC

Last edited Fri Feb 5, 2016, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)

and I qualified the label "Radical socialist" to say that is what the GOP will call him...
although they will probably say much worse than that.

and yes, the GOP's message is they want their country back because of how terrible it's become.

Bernie Sanders is demanding that we grow government bigger than it ever has been before, as that's what enacting
a single payer health care system would mean result in. The funds to pay for the program would have to flow
through the government. That is true, and what I wrote is how the Republicans will frame it.

So I hope that when the time comes, and if Sanders is the candidate,

I hope you will more to say than Wow and good luck.
Just sayin'

[SidDithers]

2. DU rec...nt

Sid

[FrenchieCat]

3. Thank you gent!

Hard to be heard over the hollering and the fightin'!

[Bluenorthwest]

6. I learned much from you about Hillary in 08.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4133344


That thread has tons of information from you about Hillary, even though the thread is not about her at all, you brought her up and made many very solid points. It's material that is so hard to forget that I'm not forgetting it.

Myself, I'm consistent and as I said in 08, Obama got the last pass for those who opposed my rights or engaged in anti gay political tactics, that's why I'm voting for Bernie Sanders who has never opposed rights for my community nor for any other. Why would I vote for someone who prays with Newt and Santorum? I wouldn't and thanks to you for showing me the facts, the truth and the way!!!!! Say no to the DOMA branch of the Democratic Party!!!!!

Oh, I almost forgot, this one is also most informative and complete!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4058877

[FrenchieCat]

8. OF course you should vote for your interest.....

As that is what this article says about me.....

I'm certainly not going to make a case against what I wrote in 2008.....
Although I'm so glad many things have changed since!

I'm glad Obama got that pass of yours, that's for sure! Thank you!

As for what I wrote in the middle of a heated campaign,
I would have voted for her had she won the primary, no hesitation.

I support her now, because I had to decide who would win the general election,
not that I am her greatest fan.

My vote is for who can win to insure this country's well being,
not simply for my own personal interest. So for now, I believe Sanders will lose big,
which is why, in the primaries, she gets my vote. If Sanders wins the nomination,
he gets my vote. It's that simple!

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Vote for the candidate you like the best unless you predict future events with superhuman accuracy.

If you would not bet your house on that outcome, don't waste your vote on that hunch!!
And I think we both want the best for the country.

[FrenchieCat]

15. Guess that's it....

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. When a post begins with "Look, I like both candidates..." I pretty much stop reading there.

[FrenchieCat]

9. Good for you!

Not a problem.

Thank you for the kick.
That is appreciated!

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Here's another kick for ya.

[TCJ70]

11. Bernie has been answering the "how" question since the beginning of his campaign...

...It's his core message. It's hard to tell because his core message has been twisted into social program reform. Remember what he always says? Revolution? The revolution is the how. It means making it clear to congress and representatives that they need to either turn their attention back to the people, or the people need to replace them. Just as you've been screaming how, I've been screaming why.

Why did his message get so distorted? Then I thought to myself: Who demanded he release these "plans" before Iowa? Clinton? Those plans, tax plan and Medicare for all, were then used as the focus to distract from the real change that he knows needs to happen. It's really too bad because he's the only one of our candidates addressing it.

I always hear Clinton say he won't get anything done, but never addresses how she would get anything done. It happened last night at the debate, too. Chuck Todd directly asked her how and she totally evaded.

It's entirely possible that not much would get done in a Sanders first term, but the whole time he'd be calling out the BS and organizing people to get our government back in order. That's something I really don't see Clinton doing.

[FrenchieCat]

12. My op takes into consideration this "revolution"...

but even that will not turn red districts blue, and therefore not pass legislation.
They call it gerrymandering for a reason!
http://www.vox.com/cards/gerrymandering-explained/what-is-gerrymandering

I consider it disingenuous to promise so much based on 1 thing,
that still won't change the make up of the House.
Plus he doesn't say....well maybe you'll get some of this stuff in my 2nd term, if I live that long.

[TCJ70]

13. Here's the other part...

...there will always be a portion of Republicans that would never vote for a Democrat. But Sanders message of massive inequality, corruption and corporate influence crosses boundaries of race, gender, political affiliation, and income level (to a certain level). His message is far better suited for a GE than Clintons. I see it happening in my own family. Bernie is considered a viable alternative to my Republican relatives.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Perhaps as long as Trump was looking like he was the nominee....

which he won't.

Your Republican relatives will most like say,
We've decided to vote for that that nice young Sen. Rubio fella,
cause that will mean that they won't have to fight a revolution to get what those identifying as Republicans want.

[Dems to Win]

17. There was a Reagan Revolution. Why the hell NOT a Sanders Revolution?

This heartfelt and heartbreaking article sums up why we need far, far more than the small incremental changes we've had under President Obama.

https://medium.com/@Lookingforrobyn/when-you-ask-me-to-vote-for-hillary-174becdb5ccc#.z2r77fo5s

When you ask me to vote for Hillary

I do not think it means what you think it means.
I’m going to set aside all of the standard issues I might have with Hillary Clinton. This isn’t about policies with which I disagree, or the fact that she’s never met a war she didn’t like, or that she has turned her back on her own policy goals for the sake of political expediency, or that I have the real sense she sold me out three times today before I even got out of bed. Push all of those issues off to the side, and focus on the ask — what are you asking me to do when you ask me to vote for her in the primaries over Bernie Sanders?

You are asking me to consciously give up on any hope I may have of living a sane life in our country. To vote for her in the primaries, I would need to believe that the establishment on both the right and the left have so thoroughly strangled the political system that it is no longer “reasonable” to even try for reform. I have to be so scared of political opponents gaining power that it is worth it to sacrifice even the hope of being able to get ahead, have a savings cushion, access healthcare, send our kids to college, retire, or just not feel like we’re constantly living on a knife’s edge, all because of fear of a potential future.

If this doesn’t make sense to you — if you think it is reasonable to fear the opposition more than to hope for having a better life — then I’m guessing you live a fairly comfortable life and don’t feel strong motivation to change it. Perhaps it’s been a long time since you had to decide not to take your spouse to the emergency room because you were worried it would wipe out what little savings you have. Maybe you don’t have full-blown anxiety attacks every time you see that your medical insurance company has sent you something in the mail. Do you remember the last time you cried thinking about how you can’t afford to get a job, because it will knock you off of the meager insurance assistance you have and put you even further behind than you started? Would your place of employment and the welfare of hundreds of employees be ensured if only we could sort out the insanity that is private insurance? Has there been a time in your life when nearly all of the stress you experience in life comes, one way or another, from trying to navigate the private medical-industrial complex?

If these don’t sound familiar to you, then maybe you don’t really understand what you’re asking of me when you advise me to make decisions based on “practicality.” And notice, I’m not even saying you’re wrong. What I am saying is that for me to choose Hillary over Bernie right now is to literally choose to give up on the best chance we have ever had to finally become a reasonable, civilized nation, and say instead “No, we can’t do it, I am too scared of what might happen.” If we don’t elect Bernie, but at least we try, then maybe someday — four years from now, eight, maybe when my kids are grown, who knows — we will make forward progress again. But to lay down now and accept the position that our political system is so thoroughly bankrupt that I should drop any expectation of living beyond paycheck to paycheck in order to prevent something even worse from happening… well, that’s it. It’s over. The powerful can sit back and relax, knowing that if we didn’t stand up now, we never will — they know their manipulations work, their place (and ours) is set. We shut the door and I embrace the hand-to-mouth class status we’ve tried to move out of for so long.

(Cut and paste the address into you're browser and you can see the whole letter, the @ in the address messes up the link)

[californiabernin]

18. Well, I was going to reply to Frenchicat's post, paragraph by paragraph, but...

Last edited Sun Feb 7, 2016, 02:27 AM - Edit history (4)

No need. You've said it better than I ever could. But I'll say something anyway.

Keep fighting!

Really, that's about it. We all have to keep fighting. You are right, in my view a vote for Hillary is a vote that says "I give up, we can't do any better. I'm scared of ___________Republican winning. (Going along for a moment with the questionable notion that Clinton would be a stronger GE candidate).

You know, don't we keep saying that when we react to terrorists by giving up our freedoms or by being scared and fearful then they've already won?

Is this really any different? Are we really that terrorized of the "system" that we have to, like Clinton, continually scheme, triangulate, and compromise our principles? Are we beyond hope?

I will not accept that. WE HAVE TO TRY BECAUSE IF WE DON'T EVEN TRY, THEN THEY'VE WON AND WE HAVE LOST. REALLY, REALLY LOST..NOT JUST AN ELECTION. LOST IT ALL. LOST OUR COUNTRY.

So yeah, this election is really, really important. It's not about Sanders. It's not about the apparent Republican lock on the House for the time being due to Gerrymandering. It's not about the 2020 census. It's not about trying to look into the future with a crystal ball....

It's about US. Right here, right NOW.

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